clutch bearing noise?(whine,drone)

[yamihami]

Hi gang allow me to introduce myself, I just bought a new for me 1991 Venture Royale so my wife and I could go touring 2 up. The Venture only has 72,000km so my thought was uhm just broken in. My other steed is a BMW 1989 k100rt with 125,000 km, my wife just doesn't find it comfortable for long hauls so its gonna have to go. Anyhow back to the subject at hand. There is a whiney drone coming from the engine area. The sound occurs while riding, and occurs when I release the throttle and last until the engine revs are very low, it happens all the time at any speed and in all gears. I suspect something to do with the clutch. This evening I removed the presure plate the friction plates and clutch plates, all are within specs. I have not yet removed the basket however I did grasp it in my 2 hands and was able to slightly move it laterally forward backwards and up and down. Here is my question am I right to suspect that the bearing just behind the basket might be worn or damaged as any play in the basket (shaft) doesn't seem right. Maybe worn bearing, side play affected by the torque of the engine compression slowing down the bike? Check out this picture it was taken by Freebird and this is what he found behind his clutch basket notice the bearings, the cage is broken I suspect this could cause the severe noise I am experiencing. http://www.venturerider.org/engineremoval/images/815.jpg

Edited August 27, 2012 by yamihami
added link

[PGunn]

See...

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=59936&highlight=clutch+basket

I went through it and swapped to what is refered to as the "I" clutch basket Mine only whines now when down shifiting or slowing which is easy to live with.

[Wizard765]

I don't have an answer for you but you are talking about a 1st gen so the previous post isn't going to be a help. Hopefully someone will chime in with an answer soon. BUT you may be onto something with the bearing. There should be no whine at all. At around 3000 rpm you may hear what appears to be a bag of crickets..

[yamihami]

Interesting! however my problem is not just a whine, riders beside me have questionably commented about it. My 1st bike was a Seca750 and there was a normal yamaha whine to it. my 2nd bike is a BMW k100rt it also has a particular normal whine to it. But this Venture whine, drowns-out the sound of the engine, again this is only during normal decelerations while under engine compression. My angst concerns the lateral movement of the clutch basket that I am able to generate by simply moving the basket. I would suspect this probably generates the vibration that results in the sound I hear. Anyhow I will remove the clutch boss and basket so as I can have a better look at that bearing before I drop the engine and most likely end up changing that 'bearing'! I have the Yamaha service manual thanks to this web site, but I have been wondering if there are any Clymer or Haynes books for the Venture. I like working with these 2 other books because they take into account that I don't dabble in these areas of expertise all the time and will mention or note important side notes. If anyone does have these books I would be greatfull if they would send me the related chapters on engine removal/installation as well a engine/clutch overall or anything relevant to the matter. Of course being able to own one of these books would be even better. thank-you.

Edited August 27, 2012 by yamihami

[Condor]

The clutch basket should not move in and out. The P.O. may not have reassembled it correctly.....

[yamihami]

Just to make sure we are talking about the same part its also called the clutch housing. Mine moves in and out slightly and also wobbles side to side. I can only imagine what the gear mounted to this housing has been doing to the driven gear. I hope there was no damage done. The guy I bought it from had it for 4 years with this noise. ouffff.

Edited August 27, 2012 by yamihami

[Yamamike]

That "side to side" movement is what I would be concerned with...sounds like a bad bearing to me IMHO.

[Condor]

Just to make sure we are talking about the same part its also called the clutch housing. Mine moves in and out slightly and also wobbles side to side. I can only imagine what the gear mounted to this housing has been doing to the driven gear. I hope there was no damage done the guy I bought it from had it for 4 years with this noise. ouffff.

 

Because it takes a special tool (OK some folks have made their own) to properly torque the boss/basket nut. Some will cheat and tighten the best they can and leave it at that. If I remember correctly the nut should be torqued to 50ftlbs. There's also a special washer with keeper tabs that fits over the spline, and the nut that may be loose. I'm thinking the whine may be coming from the straight cut gear being out of alignment a bit??? Anyway I'd suggest taking it apart and reassemble...

[yamihami]

As soon as I get home I will fabricate a special removal tool then remove the boss and the basket and visually check the bearing. I'm psyching myself up though for an engine removal.

[PGunn]

Sorry for the mistake on my part.....

[FreezyRider]

If I recall correctly, the clutch basket has a brass/bronze bushing pressed into it which acts as the bearing. Possibly yours may be badly worn, allowing the side-to-side movement. Hopefully you aren't seeing movement of the shaft it mounts on....that wouldn't be good I'm guessing!

 

When I was trying to get rid of the horrendous chirp on my 99, I removed the stock basket and replaced it with an "I" basket. I noticed that the stock bushing had some wear, as the basket was able to be moved a small amount side-to-side. Upon installing the new I basket, there was virtually no movement. And, the new basket took out almost all of the chirp.

 

Sadly, after a couple thousand miles the chirp started to return. My theory is that the wear on the new busing allowed some movement again, therefore the chirp. Just a theory.

[MasterGuns]

I've checked the clutch basket on my 86 a number of times over the four years I've owned it. I've found that the basket has slight movement left to right and up and down but no movement in and out. I believe that is normal. I don't havent worried bout it cause when removing the entire basket, the shaft it mounts to has no movement what so ever. You sure the whine isn't coming from the final drive or drive shaft? These lst editions can surely make a fool out of anyone trying to pinpoint where a specific sound is emulating from. I'd check out the final drive and middle gear.

[yamihami]

Well I just finished examining everything I jumped the gun to fast the clutch boss is nice and tight on the shaft and there is no play hence good bearing its just the basket that has a slight movement I am able to move it in and out very slightly and there is only a hint of lateral play. I guess this is normal as you say I just wonder how tight the bushing you are mentioning is supposed to be. Now here is something else I removed the short shaft and the bearing to examine them, I then tried to depress the clutch lever only to realize that it is jammed that is to say the long clutch rod going through the center of the clutch shaft is jammed just won't budge. What gives I am stumped???

[MasterGuns]

I believe you have installed the clutch plates 180 degrees out. Wish I had a better way of explaining this. The symptom you are experiencing is exactly the result. Go the tech forum and read about installing a clutch in 1st Gens.

[yamihami]

You misunderstood me I had not yet reinstalled the disc and plates there was nothing on as I was having this problem. Anyhow I solved the problem (to be truthfull a friend came over and we brain stormed the problem) I removed the slave cylinder and noticed I had probably unseated the seal as it was out to much. The slave cylinder was full of brake fluid and since there was to pressure plate to move the puck back into the cylinder it was probably jammed there and it would not return. Problem solved everything is alright. I do have a question for the experts I measured the thinkness' of the disc all my disc measure .119 in. Should I replace them with new ones. BTW my diaphram spring is well within specs. The problem is my clutch engages only at the last 1/4 inches of lever travel. BTW I had alot of slime and gunk inside the slave cylinder and the brake fluid was very dark. Would this affect grab point.

[yamihami]

Update I have spoken to a Yamaha mechanic about my problem. He pointed more towards the drive unit, he told me to check the backlash in my u-joint and the pumpkin. Itook the everything apart the final drive unit, the swing arm and the drive shaft everything appears to be very healthy ie normal backlash good bearings good splines. The only thing I noticed that was not normal is there appears to be missing the oil seal and washer plate that are according to the tech drawings suppose to be inside the swing arm on the u joint end. There is also some writing (magic marker) on the big 3 hole flange that holds the u joint against the output side of the engine casting. I will take a pic and post if I can.

[Grisolm1]

Check carb synch. My 87 had similar symptoms. Synch improved 300%.

[Flyinfool]

You misunderstood me I had not yet reinstalled the disc and plates there was nothing on as I was having this problem. Anyhow I solved the problem (to be truthfull a friend came over and we brain stormed the problem) I removed the slave cylinder and noticed I had probably unseated the seal as it was out to much. The slave cylinder was full of brake fluid and since there was to pressure plate to move the puck back into the cylinder it was probably jammed there and it would not return. Problem solved everything is alright. I do have a question for the experts I measured the thinkness' of the disc all my disc measure .119 in. Should I replace them with new ones. BTW my diaphram spring is well within specs. The problem is my clutch engages only at the last 1/4 inches of lever travel. BTW I had alot of slime and gunk inside the slave cylinder and the brake fluid was very dark. Would this affect grab point.

 

That is good, per the manual a new friction disc is 3mm (.1181 inch) thick. The wear limit is 2.8mm (.1102 thick) When I checked mine at 40K miles they were .117 thick. If the clutch upgrade (replace half disc with full and heavier spring) was done then it is perfectly normal to have the clutch engage in the very last little bit of travel.

The fluid being old can make the clutch do weird things, flush fill and bleed the system.

[Pegasus1300]

Definately flush,clean, and replace with new fluuid and be sure to leave pleanty of head space so the fluid can expand when hot.Otherwise you can lose clutch action.Very simple job and should be done on a regular basis with Yamaha VR's.

[yamihami]

Today I found my problem the treaded shaft that is part of the pinion gear, that holds the female spline socket onto the pinion gear in the final drive was sheared off. This was causing the racket. It would still drive but under deceleration it would cause the pinion gear to move out and caused the racheting noise of the 2 broken peaces. What did not help is I did not have any backlash between the gears. This caused excessive binding between the 2 gears and probably led to the breakdown.

The bike only has 72000 km now I now why. I guess the previous owners did not like the sound much.

Edited August 31, 2012 by yamihami
wording