Stumped again

[Dragonslayer]

I'm so sick of being stumped on this 1st Gen I'm going to start arguing in favor of the 2nd Gens.

 

Here's what happened this time.

 

Bike had been sitting for a few months. Went down to crank it . It started without too much difficulty but I noticed the headlight wasn't burning. So I read through a few post and got a clue to check start button switch. So i did and noticed while cranked the light would come on if I wiggled the start button. Took the switch apart, cleaned it, put it back together. Cranked fine and light worked fine just like it was supposed to.

 

I'm thinking problem solved and move on to something else. Reinstalling radio that has been disconnected for a while. So when I get the radio installed and begin to put it back together I turned the key and hit the start switch. The lights come on fine but now no engine start. nothing no click no starter spin nothing but the headlight lighting.:bang head:

Nothing that I had done since last starting the bike should have effected the starter switch. But now with the key on and shorting the starter relay out it will crank and run but not by using the starter switch.

 

What could have possibly happened?

[Marcarl]

Cut off switch??????????

[Dragonslayer]

Cut off switch??????????

I know that would be the obviouse rookie mistake but the cut off switch was in the run position.

[gscbertrand]

Perhaps it's the starter relay? If you can get a known relay that works switch them and see what happens.

[Flyinfool]

Or go to the last place you were when it worked, you were messing with the start switch, go back there and make sure that it is all back together correctly.

 

While you are in there, make sure that your kill switch is working correctly and not actually in kill.

[Yammer Dan]

My senolid (spelling) relay crapped out without any warning at all Bob. And my switch was sticking.

[frankd]

It's probably the start switch, but make sure it's in neutral first. If it's a Royale, you can verify the kill switch is OK by turning the cruise control ON and rocking the kill switch. If it's in the kill position, the green cruise control light won't come on. Speaking of cruise control, a couple of times I've had a 'no crank' situation, and when I looked I was pushing the Cruise release switch, not the START switch. If it's a Royale, make sure you're pushing the right button.

 

 

Frank D.

[Dragonslayer]

My senolid (spelling) relay crapped out without any warning at all Bob. And my switch was sticking.

Ok maybe that, I do believe my start switch may have been sticking a little. I had one laying around and tried that one. Same thing. So I have two laying around. What is the bench test for them?

[Yammer Dan]

I'm not sure about test. I found a new one on E-Bay for 15 bucks or there abouts. This was on Ugly and I haven't in stalled it yet.

[mbrood]

The starter switch has dual contacts so they should BOTH be shorted when the button is pushed and both be open when it's relaxed. There's a write-up in the tech section near the top.

[Trader]

Probably a stupid question but it's not in gear or the sidestand down is it?

[Flyinfool]

The starter switch has dual contacts so they should BOTH be shorted when the button is pushed and both be open when it's relaxed. There's a write-up in the tech section near the top.

 

?????

I thought the headlight part of the switch is closed when the switch is released, open when the switch is pressed. The start half of the switch is open when released and closed when pressed.

You can easily test this on the bench with an ohm meter. closed should show 0 ohms on the lowest scale and open should show infinite with the meter on the highest scale.

[Dragonslayer]

Probably a stupid question but it's not in gear or the sidestand down is it?

No it on the center stand in nuetral. I did check the sidestand switch to make sure it was not stuck. I also tried to crank it with the side stand switch plugged up and unplugged. No difference. I believe I have ruled out the side stand switch.

[Dragonslayer]

?????

I thought the headlight part of the switch is closed when the switch is released, open when the switch is pressed. The start half of the switch is open when released and closed when pressed.

You can easily test this on the bench with an ohm meter. closed should show 0 ohms on the lowest scale and open should show infinite with the meter on the highest scale.

But the headlight is still burning and going on and off when the start button is pushed. This would indicate that the control wire BLue/W is active but the starter contact is not.

[frankd]

Bob,

 

There should be 4 wires going to the start switch----A black, a blue with a white stripe, and 2 others. The black wire is grounded, and when the button is pushed, the switch connects the blue/white wire to the black wire, grounding it. The other 2 wires are to turn off the headlight when the button is pushed. To verify that it's not your start switch causing this, you could unplug your start switch, turn the key on, and take a jumper and ground the blue/white wire (the bike side, not the switch side). If it cranks, you have a problem with your start switch. If it doesn't crank, go to your starter solenoid. You will see a small blue/white wire there. Ground it with the jumper, and the bike should crank. If not, you have a bad solenoid or starter. In between these 2 different blue/white wires there are the interlock relays (side stand down, in neutral) and after you make these 2 tests we can proceed.

 

 

Frank D.

[Dragonslayer]

Bob,

 

There should be 4 wires going to the start switch----A black, a blue with a white stripe, and 2 others. The black wire is grounded, and when the button is pushed, the switch connects the blue/white wire to the black wire, grounding it. The other 2 wires are to turn off the headlight when the button is pushed. To verify that it's not your start switch causing this, you could unplug your start switch, turn the key on, and take a jumper and ground the blue/white wire (the bike side, not the switch side). If it cranks, you have a problem with your start switch. If it doesn't crank, go to your starter solenoid. You will see a small blue/white wire there. Ground it with the jumper, and the bike should crank. If not, you have a bad solenoid or starter. In between these 2 different blue/white wires there are the interlock relays (side stand down, in neutral) and after you make these 2 tests we can proceed.

 

 

Frank D.

OK I grounded the Blue/w wire at the starter relay (without unplugging or the pushing the start switch) and it cranked. This tells me the starter relay is good and the problem is somewhere in the start switch circuit. Is that right?

[Flyinfool]

This means that the starter circuit is fine. You either have a bad switch or a bad ground wire.

 

Take your ground wire and connect it to the black wire at the switch, press the start button. If it cranks the switch is fine and you either have a break in the black wire or a bad ground of the black wire. If adding the ground wire does not make it crank with the start button then the problem is in the switch.

[frankd]

Yep, that's what it means. But as Flyin said, there is a slight chance that your black wire has a ground problem. Ground the black wire with the jumper and see if it cranks when you push the button. If not, take the switch apart again and see what's wrong. Before you put it back on the bike, take an ohmeter and connect it to black and blue/white. WHen you push the button, you sould have continuity.

 

Frank D.

[Dragonslayer]

This means that the starter circuit is fine. You either have a bad switch or a bad ground wire.

 

Take your ground wire and connect it to the black wire at the switch, press the start button. If it cranks the switch is fine and you either have a break in the black wire or a bad ground of the black wire. If adding the ground wire does not make it crank with the start button then the problem is in the switch.

I can take a jumper from the blue wire at the starter relay to the black wire at the starter switch and it will crank without pressing the starter button. If I touch the jumper to the blue/w at the starter button then press the starter button it will crank. this tells me that I'm getting contact thru the switch and the ground is good from the starter button to grouns but am I losing it some where between the starter button and the Blue/w lead at the starter relay. That lead appears to go thru the flasher relay and several other relays.

[Flyinfool]

OK I grounded the Blue/w wire at the starter relay (without unplugging or the pushing the start switch) and it cranked. This tells me the starter relay is good and the problem is somewhere in the start switch circuit. Is that right?

I missed this part the first time thru.

There are 2 blue/white wires at the start relay. One goes to the start switch and the other goes to the Solenoid. I can not tell from the wiring diagram which connector pin is which.

 

I can take a jumper from the blue wire at the starter relay to the black wire at the starter switch and it will crank without pressing the starter button. If I touch the jumper to the blue/w at the starter button then press the starter button it will crank. this tells me that I'm getting contact thru the switch and the ground is good from the starter button to grouns but am I losing it some where between the starter button and the Blue/w lead at the starter relay. That lead appears to go thru the flasher relay and several other relays.

 

1. Connect a jumper from battery ground to the blue/white wire at the switch, It should crank.

2. Connect a jumper from the blue/white wire at the switch to the black wire at the switch. It should crank.

If 1 and 2 are both true it is a start switch problem.

 

3. If #1or 2 is false, ie no crank, connect a jumper from the battery neg to one of the blue/white wires at the start relay, there are 2 right next to each other in the connector, one of the blue/white wires should make it crank the other should not.

 

4. If #3 is true, connect the jumper from battery Neg to the blue/white wire that did not make it crank and press the start button, it should crank. If it cranks then the blue/white wire between the start relay and the start switch is broken.

 

5. If #3 is false, ie neither blue/white wire makes it crank, then connect the jumper from Bat ground to the blue/white wire at the solenoid, it should crank. If it does not then repair the broken blue white wire between the Start relay and the solenoid.

 

6. If #4 is true, Connect a jumper between the 2 blue/white wires at the start relay and press the start button. It should crank. If it does crank you have a bad start relay.

 

Once you get to a test that does not work as described STOP it does not pay to continue till that step is resolved.

 

My fingers hurt now, test this and get back to us and we can go from there.

[frankd]

Bob,

I miss read your message when you said you jumpered the blue/white wire on the starter solenoid (aka starter relay). That does prove that your solenoid and starter are fine. Now disasemble the start push button and do the same test by grounding the blue/white wire at the start switch itself. I suspect it'll crank, but we need to know for certain.

 

Frank D.

[Dragonslayer]

nOTE MY RESPONSES OIN RED

I missed this part the first time thru.

There are 2 blue/white wires at the start relay. One goes to the start switch and the other goes to the Solenoid. I can not tell from the wiring diagram which connector pin is which.

 

I believe we are not on the same page as far as terminology. When I am saying Starter Relay I'm thinking the starter solenoid at that device there is only one Blue/w wire. As I read thru this when you say starter relay I'm thinking you are meaning the flasher relay which has a 9 wire plug with two Blue/w wires. Am I correct?

 

1. Connect a jumper from battery ground to the blue/white wire at the switch, It should crank. iT DOES NOT

2. Connect a jumper from the blue/white wire at the switch to the black wire at the switch. It should crank.iT DOES NOT

If 1 and 2 are both true it is a start switch problem.bOTH ARE FALSE

 

3. If #1or 2 is false, ie no crank, connect a jumper from the battery neg to one of the blue/white wires at the start relay, aT THE 9 PIN PLUG AT THE FLASHER RELAYthere are 2 right next to each other in the connector, one of the blue/white wires should make it crank the other should not. iT DOES NOT ON EITHER BLUE/W WIRE

 

4. If #3 is true, connect the jumper from battery Neg to the blue/white wire that did not make it crank and press the start button, it should crank. If it cranks then the blue/white wire between the start relay and the start switch is broken.

 

5. If #3 is false, ie neither blue/white wire makes it crank, then connect the jumper from Bat ground to the blue/white wire at the solenoid, it should crank.iT DOES If it does not then repair the broken blue white wire between the Start relay and the solenoid.

 

6. If #4 is true,#4 IS FALSE? nOW WHAT? Connect a jumper between the 2 blue/white wires at the start relay and press the start button. It should crank. If it does crank you have a bad start relay.

 

Once you get to a test that does not work as described STOP it does not pay to continue till that step is resolved.

 

My fingers hurt now, test this and get back to us and we can go from there.

[Flyinfool]

nOTE MY RESPONSES OIN RED

 

Yes it appears that we had our "wires" crossed on terminology.

 

OK if I read your answers correctly.

 

At the 9 pin connector at the flasher relay, when you connect a jumper from ground to either one of the blue/white wires it does not crank.

When you connect a jumper from ground to the blue/white wire at the solenoid, it does crank.

 

If this is true then the blue/white wire that runs from the flasher relay to the solenoid is either broken or making a bad contact at one end or the other.

 

When you connected the ground to both blue/white wires at the flasher relay you supplied the ground to one end of the the wire and it did not crank. when you connected to the other end of the wire at the solenoid it did crank. This means that it is a bad wire or bad connection at one end of that wire.

 

I think your getting close now.

 

You can do a quick and dirty test of that wire by running a jumper from the blue/white at the solenoid to one of the Blue/white wires at the flasher, one of them will make it crank one will not. with the jumper connected to the one that does not crank, hit the start button, it should crank.

[Kirby]

I'm so sick of being stumped on this 1st Gen I'm going to start arguing in favor of the 2nd Gens.

 

Here's what happened this time.

 

Bike had been sitting for a few months. Went down to crank it . It started without too much difficulty but I noticed the headlight wasn't burning. So I read through a few post and got a clue to check start button switch. So i did and noticed while cranked the light would come on if I wiggled the start button. Took the switch apart, cleaned it, put it back together. Cranked fine and light worked fine just like it was supposed to.

 

I'm thinking problem solved and move on to something else. Reinstalling radio that has been disconnected for a while. So when I get the radio installed and begin to put it back together I turned the key and hit the start switch. The lights come on fine but now no engine start. nothing no click no starter spin nothing but the headlight lighting.:bang head:

Nothing that I had done since last starting the bike should have effected the starter switch. But now with the key on and shorting the starter relay out it will crank and run but not by using the starter switch.

 

What could have possibly happened?

 

Yep! Sounds like a 1st Gen!!!!

 

:crackup::crackup::crackup::crackup:

[Dragonslayer]

Yep! Sounds like a 1st Gen!!!!

 

:crackup::crackup::crackup::crackup:

I see your point but your input is not helpful. Thanks anyway.