Rear axle spacer left off by stealer

[maineventurerider]

Hey guys,

 

Could use a little input here...

 

When I purchased a new set of tires for my 06 RSMV, I took them and the bike to a local metric dealer to be installed. (BTW, this will be the last time. I went to Harbor Freight and bought a few tools and I will do them myself on both of my bikes from now on).

 

Anyway, a few days into my recent road trip, I noticed a faint sound coming from the rear wheel which would come and go. I also had the clicking sound so many of you have described from the rear end. It was an intermittent issue, and went away for the remainder of the trip.

 

When I got back I went on this wonderful forum, and realized my problem had all the earmarkings of the dread "Creaking wheel syndrome".

 

So I printed up the TSB and took the bike back to the stealer that did the tire change, explained the problem, the likely remedy, and asked them to fix it.

 

Result, they kept the bike for 4 days and couldn't fix it. The service manager said "you know more about it than we do". But at least he didn't try to charge me.

 

Anyway, took the bike home and put it up on the lift yesterday, removed the mufflers and saddlebags and brake caliper, etc. Started to remove the rear axle, which was tight as @#ll! After getting the axle out about an inch, I noticed that the axle spacer (the one between the swingarm and the caliper mounting bracket) was NOT on the axle. Oh, and I forgot to mention, they changed the final gear oil at the dealer to try to cure the noise and said it had metal shavings in it.

 

I am sure the spacer was on the axle when I brought the bike to them because this was the first tire change. I've only had the bike since last October and it only had 4000 miles on it when I bought it. The guy I got it from was not exactly a stickler about maintenance so I really doubt he ever had the axle out, so it should have still been on there when I took it in.

 

So guys, I guess I'm looking for some ammo to go back to the dealer with. What are potential problems that can be caused by leaving the spacer off? It seems to me that without the spacer things would either be too loose, or too tight back there, either of which could wreak havoc with the rear end of these bikes!

 

Any input would be appreciated!

 

Ride Safe,

 

1/2crazed

[MiCarl]

The axle has a shoulder to keep it from being pulled through the caliper carrier and the bearings. I suspect the purpose of the spacer is to distribute the load across the face of the aluminum caliper carrier. Without it I can see the shoulder wearing away the caliper carrier over time and making things loose.

 

If you're suggesting you need ammo because there might be permanent damage to the motorcycle I doubt you need be concerned. Even if there is some wear in the caliper carrier replacing the spacer will put things back right.

 

Sounds like you cannot be 100% sure the spacer was there when you took it in. It's possible that wheel was off pre-delivery, by the previous owner or even got left out by Yamaha. Still, a competent mechanic should have noticed and taken action. Unfortunately, dealers put their most junior people on tire and oil changes.

[M61A1MECH]

Ken,

 

I agree with Carl, but if you are convinced that the spacer was there I would certianly press them to return it or replace it.

 

I am curious which of the two local metric dealers you went to? The one there in Deland I do not believe they are a Yamaha motorcycle dealer or service center, only Yamaha watercraft, they do sell other metric motorcycles, the other one in Sanford is a Yamaha motorcycle dealer, with a good reputation.

 

I normally only go to dealres that are certified on Yamaha ,motorcycles when I need work done that I am not comfortable doing my self.

 

If you need a good Yamaha service provider that is a bit farther away I would recomend the one in Daytona Beach, they have always done great work on my Venture.

 

Good luck getting this resolved.

[maineventurerider]

Thanks guys,

 

I went to the dealer in Deland who is indeed only a Suzuki motorcycle dealer, but sells Yamaha watercraft. I was in there with a friend of mine who does a lot of business with them and they quoted me a good price for the tire swap, so I went with them. I bought the tires through JP Cycles at Destination Daytona.

 

This was my 4th time having tires changed on a Venture (this is my 2nd Venture). The other times I went to Daytona FunMachines and an Indy shop in another state. I've never had a problem before so I didn't think anything of going to a non-Yamaha dealer.

 

Anyway, I'm done with having dealers change tires. I went to Harbor Freight the other day and bought a few tools and from now I'll do it on my own. I have a new tire in the shop right now that I'm putting on my old Harley today.

 

I AM concerned about possible damage to the rear end of the bike. I first noticed the problem in Oklahoma three days out on a 7200 mile roadtrip. It was intermittent and I didn't want to hold my friends up. It went away entirely after a few days and I didn't notice it again until a week ago.

 

Now the noise is worse, almost continuous, and the Service Manager tells me I had metal shavings in the final drive fluid.

 

My concern is that leaving the spacer out may have created too much play in the rear end, possibly damaging the final drive.

 

Ken (1/2crazed)

[Kirby]

I may be wrong but I think you are 100% correct about the play. Without the spacer there doesn't seem to be any way that the tire side of the rear end could stay engage with the pumpkin side, therefore the gears won't stay engaged. The resulting non-meshing would certainly destroy the rear end. If the axle is tightened down without the spacer in there the brake caliper arm will scrub the area surrounding the bearing housing. If left loose so as not to scrub, then the gears don't mesh like they should. Hope you get this worked out...,soon!!!! Keep us posted.

[RandyR]

if by chance your '06 was a new-old-stock purchase origonally, and still under warranty, I'd involve yamaha.

 

There may be a State agency which oversees vehicle maintenance claims where you live.

[Snarley Bill]

the only thing i will let the dealer work on, on my scoots is minor recalls. it is like any business. you have people that give a crap, and those that don't. not to mention the stupids that are out there. most dealer owners are decent, but they have to put up with worthless aholes if they want to have some one to work for them. i am a machinist, and some of the ding bats i work with scare the hell out of me. what do you do to fix the problem? learn to work on your own stuff. you can't fix stupid. as usual i'm glad i'm as old as i am. i lived in the good times.

[V7Goose]

I AM concerned about possible damage to the rear end of the bike. I first noticed the problem in Oklahoma three days out on a 7200 mile roadtrip. It was intermittent and I didn't want to hold my friends up. It went away entirely after a few days and I didn't notice it again until a week ago.

 

Now the noise is worse, almost continuous, and the Service Manager tells me I had metal shavings in the final drive fluid.

 

My concern is that leaving the spacer out may have created too much play in the rear end, possibly damaging the final drive.

 

Ken (1/2crazed)

The final drive is a sealed uint, and there is no way it could be damaged inside from leaving anything at all out of the wheel and axle assembly.

 

I have no way of knowing if there actually were/are metal pieces in your rear end, but this is extremely uncommon on this bike. I would suspect a lie. But you certainly should have drained the oil again by now to check it yourself.

 

When the axle is properly torqued, all of the pressure is between the axle shoulder on one side and the nut on the other, and there is a complete metal-to-metal connection between the axle shoulder and the final drive through the side spacers and the sleeves running inside the bearings. If the axle is torqued down with any of these parts missing, the swing arm will deflect to take up any slack, and depending on the part missing, either the swing arm will bind up against the wheel or the bearings will be mashed together - either situation will virtually freeze up the rear wheel. If your rear wheel is turning freely by hand when torqued at 110 lbs, then all the parts are in there.

 

I do not know what is causing your noise - there are lots of possibilities at this point. Ordinarily it is nothing more than just dry drive fingers, but with all the issues you have raised, who knows? I would not be able to diagnose it without a personal inspection. I hope you get it sorted out,

Goose

[MikeWa]

Wasn't there something about wrong oil or some defects in some 06 rear ends? I don't know this. It just seems I remember something about rear end problems on 06 bikes. If so I believe it is a warranty item. If I am right I wouldn't muddy the water with the spacer story.

Mike

[RedRider]

Since this bike only had 4000 miles on it and it is likely the first rear end fluid change, I would expect some shavings in the fluid from the break in of the gears. The drain bolt has a magnet on it to catch these shavings so it is really evident when there are some. I wouldn't be concerned unless you see significant shavings at the next fluid change. If you just traveled 7200 miles, it wouldn't be too early to change it again just to check. It is easy and inexpensive to do.

 

Leaving out the spacer shouldn't cause any difficulty inside the pumpkin. I would check the splines on the wheel/pumpkin joint. I doubt any damage was done, but if so, this is likely where it would be. Also, check your rear brake pads. With the spacer missing, the caliper will not properly line up and may have worn one of the pads. If so, replace with EBC HH pads.

 

As for the clicking, it is very likely dry pins. You will need snap ring pliers to get to them. Lube them with Honda Moly60. Available at a Honda motorcycle dealer or - for less money - at a Honda car dealer. Search VR. org for a part number. While lubing the pins, spread some Moly60 on the splines.

 

FYI - When applying the Moly60, I would suggest wearing a pair of latex or nitrile gloves. This lube is kind of difficult to get off your hands. Also, while the axle is out, coat it with anti-seize to make future removal (and installation) much easier. Anti-seize is also very hard to get off your hands. Wear gloves. Anti-seize is available at any autoparts or hardware store.

 

Oh, and one more thing, use a torque wrench.

 

As a suggestion for getting the tires changed. Remove the wheel yourself and take the wheel only along with the new tire to the indy shop (or the Yamaha motorcycle dealer). This really limits the amount of damage they can do.

 

To change a rear tire on one of these large bikes with tire spoons is quite an effort. Did it once and will never do it again. Took forever and was a lot of work. The front is not so bad, but still difficult unless you are skilled in working the spoons. It also can lead to damage of the brake rotors if you don't have a good setup to work on. That can be VERY expensive (relative to a tire change).

 

Good luck.

 

RR

[maineventurerider]

Well, I found the axle spacer. It was between the brake caliper bracket and the stepped collar on the outside of the right side of the hub.Wrong place, but at least it was on the axle. I pulled the axle the rest of the way and found it after my two posts yesterday.

 

I figured I would go ahead and put things back together properly, grease the splines and the clutch pins and align the final drive per the TSB, then put the wheel back on, torque everything down to specs and see how it works. I did all of that yesterday and fired her up on the lift, put it into gear and had a loud noise coming from the rear end. At that point if figured I must not have gotten the splines on the hub and final drive seated properly so I left it for this morning.

 

Anyway, took the wheel off again and tried for a couple of hours to get it seated any differently than I did yesterday. Bottom line is, I can't seem to get it to seat any differently than I did yesterday. So either it's right or I'm a total moron. There is about a 3/16-1/4" gap between the plastic flange that encircles the final drive and the wheel itself. Is there supoosed to be that gap there?

 

So once again, I put everything back together again, crossed my fingers, and fired her up on the lift again. Same noise. I kept it running and listened closely but couldn't quite tell where it was coming from. Went and got my stethoscope (I may not be much of a mechanic but I AM a male nurse!), and my assessment is, it's coming from the final drive. I hear a loud clunking sound with the stethoscope. When I increased RPMs slightly the noise seemed to go away. But I can't be sure because with my hand on the throttle I couldn't put my stethoscope on the final drive.

 

Also I did drain and replace the final drive oil. I didn't see any shavings in it but it's only been driven a few miles since the dealer replaced it looking for the source of the noise. He did as I said before, see shavings.

 

So my questions are:

1) Does it sound to you guys like the hub splines and final drive spines are not seated together properly? (It doesn't seem likely after my repeated attempts but anything's possible.) And if so, would this cause the clacking clunking sound from the final drive?

 

2) Could the misplaced spacer (against the stepped collar, not between the swing arm and the caliper mounting bracket) have caused any problems with the fnal drive? Looking at it myself and after reading Goose's post I don't think so. It could possibly cause the needle bearing to bind up. BUT, that doesn't seem to be the sound I'm hearing.

 

3) Is it possilbe when I loosened the acorn nuts that attach the final drive to the swing arm that I caused a problem with the drive shaft? I did not remove the nuts entirely, just loosened them enough to move the final drive slightly in relation to the swing arm.

 

Anyway, that's the update on my tale of woe. Any help from you experts would be appreciated. At this point I'm glad I have my old Harley to ride for now, because my bikes are my transportation. Although my old hog sound's like she's having clutch issues. I guess that's for another forum.

 

Thanks guys and ride safe!

 

Ken-(1/2crazed)

[Flyinfool]

With the bike on the lift, and with the bike in gear, can you rotate the tire any more than normal backlash?

 

It could even be that the engine is not running totally smooth and what you are hearing is the wheel bouncing back and forth with the backlash in the system. As you increase the rpm it leaves the resonant frequency of the backlash and so it sounds smooth.

 

Hey at least it is a good sounding WAG.....

[V7Goose]

You should not run the rear wheel under power when it is hanging free in the air. The noise you probably heard is simply the wheel bouncing back and forth in the final drive lash (total space between the drive shaft splines, final drive gears, and wheel drive splines). This happens because there is no drag to ensure all those mating surfaces stay in contact on the same side. When you run it with nothing to hold the rear wheel back (the drag I mentioned), then every power pulse causes it to slightly over-run the speed of the drive line, then is begins to slow down just as another power pulse slams the drive line together again. Just a VERY LIGHT touch on the rear brake will simulate the road drag and cause the noise to go away.

 

The noise gets less at higher RPM simply because the power pulses are closer together so there is less time for the wheel to slam back and forth.

Goose

[maineventurerider]

You guys are too smart. Wish I would've posted my update last night or this morning instead of cryin in my beer!

 

Instead I spent 5 hours tearing everything down again to make sure it was as good as I could make it.

 

Then I took it for a road test in the neighborhood, in the rain, (that's why they call me a 1/2crazebikr). And I heard absolutely no unusual noise from the final drive, nor any sign of the dread CREAKING WHEEL SYNDROME!

 

So for now anyway, I may have solved my problem.

 

I still need to road test it at speed, if I have any problems y'all will be the second ones to know!!!

 

Thanks Goose, FlyinFool and everyone else on this awesome forum. You guys are the bomb.

 

Ride Safe!

 

!/2crazed

[Flyinfool]

I suppose that crying in beer may just be its only redeeming value, I can think of only one other good use for the stuff, and that is killing garden slugs.......

[maineventurerider]

You're right about beer.

 

I prefer gin myself!!!

 

1/2crazed

[StarFan]

 

There is about a 3/16-1/4" gap between the plastic flange that encircles the final drive and the wheel itself. Is there supoosed to be that gap there?

 

 

There should not be any gap between the plastic flange and the wheel itself. On my bike when installing the rear wheel I usually get the wheel half way or a little more into the hub in the first try and then there is this 1/4 inch gap. By wiggling the wheel a little or taking it out again and reiinstalling it goes all the way and completely closes the gap. Possiblie you have managed to close the gap by tightening the wheel - I would not know since I never continue assembling unless I have the wheel fully inside the hub.

Sounds like your bike is working fine so most likely the wheel is all the way inside the hub. You can easily check it visiually. But a 1/4 inch gap - No, not right !

Ride safely,

 

Jonas aka StarFan