unnessasary tazer death

[Leeway]

Healthy 29 year old man dies after police tase him

[Leeway]

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[flb_78]

A Tazer should only be used in a case of an actual physical altercation with an officer, not as a tool for compliance.

 

Since there are no details about what has happened in this situation, I'll reserve my judgment for a later date.

[Jerry W]

Gotta' go with Forrest, there is not any info telling why the officers used the tazer. Maybe the investigation will provide more information.

[KiteSquid]

Yup, gotta wait for the investigation report.

[onerider]

We've had several taser related deaths in Canada. From some of the videos & newspaper, tv reports it seems our police use tasers as a matter of course with no actual physical altercation required. Only verbal resistance seems to be needed. They seem to be used almost as soon as any hesitation on the part of the subject is detected by the officers, sometimes even with 3 or 4 officers present & surrounding the individual. I feel they should be restricted far more, to the point were the officer(s) or the public are actually in danger or the threat of danger.

 

Robert

[Yammer Dan]

Face a 300 lb out of control subject and see if you wait for him/her to make contact. I don't plan to loose. Tazer is a great tool

[Squidley]

Lets wait and see what comes of it, we weren't there and dont have all the info about it. I know where Yammer is coming from, but he's in a whole different world inside with them.

This thread is going ok right now, but let us not take it down a dark path

[Leeway]

I feel there isn't enough info to draw any conclusion at this point. I think maybe sometimes a little more restraint, by those carrying, couldn't hurt.

[sarges46]

Law enforcement can't win.

 

Chase a bad guy in a car and they crash into innocents then they should have not chased him/her. Dont persue and suspect robs/kills/rapes then they should have caught the suspect no matter what.

 

Shoot someone and it turns out they waved a cell phone, next time hesitate and you or your partner gets shot.

 

Tazer is used more and more easily...that may be a concern.

 

We are trained at "corrections" to follow a route of use of force.

 

officer presence

verbals commands

soft hand techniques

hard hand

less lethal ex: pepper spray/tazer

water hose

lethal

 

A guy with a knife can stab you before you can draw your gun if he is within 21 feet. Seems like a far enough distance...doesnt it.

 

My cop friends often say....better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

 

Bad state we work in some days that get to having to think like that...but it is a reality.

The bad guy doesnt care and officers have to make a descisions that can affect their life forever as well as others.

Not an easy way to make a living.

 

I hope the truth comes out of this one and if the officers were wrong then discipline them and train the others so the mistake is not made again.

[flb_78]

Tazers are a great thing. I'd rather be tazered then shot any day of the week,

but unfortunately, there are many videos of LEO's who use tazers only for compliance with no threat of a physical altercation.

 

Yes, some people may die as a result of being tazered because of health conditions, but guess what, they probably would of died if they had been shot with a gun as well.

 

A prison/jail situation is definitely different then a traffic stop and tazer use should be allowed more in that situation. There is no room for physical altercations in such a situation.

[James Ardrey]

Don't taze me bro! How does this relate to riding ventures? I thought maybe this topic was going to say that if you tazed your 1st or 2nd gen that it would run faster or something like that.

[Marcarl]

If a cop askes you to do whatever (comply) and you don't come in line with his request, then he can take whatever action he\she deems necessary. How are they to know your history, your condition or whatever. All you are showing them is that you are not in agreement with what they would like and if you then start to make a rukus over it, well be forewarned, they have tazars, guns and the like, you may get hurt, so respect their request. They're not looking to hurt or kill you, they just need to have the situation under their control so that all may work out for the better.

Just my humble opinion.

[Guest kozman01]

I will reserve judgement until the investigation is complete. With that being said, I've been tased NUMEROUS times in training. One thing needs to be understood here, being tased does NOT cause pain, it causes the electrical signals to your brain to be "jumbled up". No pain, zero. Do I think a taser should be deployed in every circumstance, NO, but it is the LEAST physical type of compliance outside of verbal commands. Like the previous poster stated. LE really can't win in situations like this. Back in the day, LE had a gun, so he either hit or shot someone. Then LE got a big stick because people were tired of everyone getting shot. Well then, the 60's happened, and people thought it was mean to hit suspects with big sticks so we went with the PR-24 (smaller stick). Well then, even that became too much force, so LE went with hands on techniques (choke hold). Well, freaks in San Fransisco thought that was truly brutal and everyone stopped using it and we then gave LE Mace/OC gas. Well guess what, people die getting hit with OC gas as well, so we then moved to a complete hands off tasers. Guess what, people die using tasers as well, so now certain groups want to take that away. I feel the pendulum will swing to where LE in this nation will end up like the UK and really not be armed.

 

Moral of the above is suspects will sometimes, but rarely, die if ANY device/substance/defensive measure/complaince hold is used.

 

After ALL that is said, I'm "old school" when it comes to being a cop. LE got away from carrying a .45 and handling the "situation" on the street because, and this is just MY opinion, we opened the field up to alot of people who were nowhere qualified either physicall or mentally to be a cop. I, unlike many younger cops, am not afraid to put my hands on someone and control them that way, but you have to consider how that may look on someones cell phone video that they are taking while your confronting the suspect. I'm going to be hung out to dry in the media with "Look at the big mean cop putting his hands on the poor criminal" as opposed to 4 cops standing around a suspect with a few little wires sticking out of the suspect as he lays on the ground. Cops like the type I am are a dying breed. All the young ones want "tools" to control people, when the "old ways" work much, much better. All the the dirtbags I talk with advise they don't want to deal with a cop that has no problem scrapping with them in some fistacuffs, but have very little fear of being zapped with a taser or hit with OC spray.

 

So, if the cop deployed his taser inappropriately, he'll be fired, charged, sued, whatever, but rest assured, he'll pay much more than if a dirtbag used on someone he was victimizing.

 

If the cop did deploy it inappropriately, in my opinion, he should be hung out to dry. If not, he was doing his job and a VERY unfortunate results occured. Just my two cents, which we all know is only worth one cent these days:) Feel free to flame away!!!!

[Guest kozman01]

Concerning what Marcarl said. If a cop is treating you inappropriately or is demanding you do something that you feel you shouldn't do, please, please comply and take him to the mat in court. One thing is certain, you'll lose if you fight on the street but you have a good chance, if your right, winning in a court of law.

 

By the way, if anyone cares, I only hassle teenagers on 10000 dollar bikes that go 175 mph AND don't have a license AND insurance. I have found that the VAST majority of cruiser riders are licensed and carry plenty of insurance. Other riders, not so much. Sorry young ones on this board, I just call them as I've seen them over the years. I have NEVER had one problem form any real Harley rider or real tour type bikers. Sport bikes on the other hand, don't get me started!!!!! I don't mean to profle, but you know what people say about profiling? "It works" I should exclude anyone over 30 on a high performance bike. Some of us can't let go of 18.

[Guest Sly]

Here's the tail end of the article:

 

"The man's father is questioning the actions of the troopers, and claims that his son had no heart condition."

 

I'm guessing the father thinks his son had no heart condition prior to the crash, but can he be certain the son didn't have a heart condition immediately following the crash, as a result of the crash, and prior to the deployment of the ECD?

 

I was involved in a situation years back (late '80s - yep, I'm a member of the "back in the day" club too, kozman01!) when a CGA (Citizen Gone Awry) got it in his head that he was going to whoop up on three of us because he thought it was his God-given right to drive through his exwife's yard at a high rate of speed, crash into the house, and set it afire ("Was that wrong?"). When we finally got him pulled over - actually he stopped abruptly at the expense of a telephone pole - he had to be physically restrained (soft hand techniques - before the days of the taser as we know it). The city officer who made the arrest requested a transport assist, which I abliged. Prior to putting the gentleman in my car, we had to remove him from the other, which requires a pat down search. The gent got a second wind and decided "tonight I don't feel like being patted down", and promptly began fighting again. This time the answer was OC spray, which did little to calm his mood (though it produced copious amounts of snot). Note: he was not handcuffed due to an injury he sustained during one of the two crashes, not sure which.

 

This brings me, finally, to the point where things, unfortunately, went from bad to worse. Because of the man's violent behavior, which took nearly 600 combined pounds of LEOs to subdue, it became necessary to employ a common technique used "back in the day" (remember this, kozman01?), to wit: we hog tied him. I realize this technique may seem archaic to some, but believe me, it was common practice in our jurisdiction and brought immediate control to a situation. The unfortunate aspect of this encounter is that the person died while restrained. The onslought of questions and opinions that followed was stressful, to say the least. As it turned out, the coroner's official report stated that the guy had a "heart condition" that would have caused his demise even if he were sitting at home in his recliner. When he developed this heart condition I am not sure.

 

For what it's worth, let's see how it plays out in the end, and maybe not pass judgement on the men and women who can't win for losing, no matter what they do nowadays!

 

L8r~ Sly

[Guest Saddletramp]

I work in a MAX A SHU prison. Those of you in the business know what I'm talking about by now! We are taught not to let it get started but if it does to end it and then its over. We are also on camera, approx. 1000 in the facility. The armchair qb's always critique any physical action that takes place. You are never commended for stopping it b4 it starts but if something sours you can bet you'll hear it if it's stopped inappropriately. If compliance is given no force is ever used.

[Guest Dareman]

I was a cop (actually a deputy sheriff) for 30 years. I retired as a District Commander (Lt).

 

I still hold a reserve status with the agency I retired from and "work" 2 days a week in drug court as a deputy sheriff. When I am in court I carry a Tazer (as well as a cocked and locked 45 ACP)

 

I am certified on all Tazer Models and have been tazed 3 times. (all related to training and certification.)

 

I am also a certified Police Firearms Instructor as well as use of force and the tactical aspects of using weapons and still instruct and certify officers on the Dept I retired from on occasion.

 

I have Tazed suspects who refused to comply with being arrested and were combative.

 

By the way I have a diagnosed heart condition I take medication for (irregular heart beat) Diagnosed 15 years ago. I still do PT to maintain my certification as a Police Officer and must pass a PT test every year as long as I hold my commission.

 

If you read the article carefully nowhere does it say the suspect was in good health. (That is only assumed) It does not say what condition he was in.

 

99.9% of Tazer deaths in this country are a resuilt of the suspect under the influence of some type of street drug specifically Cocaine or Crystal Meth.

 

It will be interesting to see what the Autopsy results are. Especially the Toxicology results which usually take 6-8 weeks.

 

In Law Enforcement we use what is called the level of force continuum.

Starting with verbal commands all the way through deadly force.

The use of the Tazer usually falls after "soft hand control", followed by the Baton or Pepper Spray if the Tazer is not used.

 

It is sad that anyone has to die.

Unfortunately there are those out there that when faced with an officer and going into a custodial situation choose to resist.

 

I hope that when the full investigation comes out it is published in this forum.

 

If in fact the officers violated Dept. Policy and the use of force continuum they will be disiplined or face criminal charges. The other side of the coin is the administrative investigation and the criminal investigation will show they were justified in using the force they used.

 

Please reserve judgement until that time.

 

The Tazer is a tool, just as pepper spray, the handgun, the baton, the handcuff's, the pencil and now computers are a tool.

 

I for one will be praying for the suspects family as well as the officer's that were involved as this tragedy will forever change all of their lives.

 

Lt. Al Tomlinson (retired)

[hipshot]

i still say. a well trained ,90 pound germanshephard dog, , will out perform ANY electronic device!

"nuff said".

leo's can't win, regardless of how hard they try!

i concur, with the majority, wait , until all the facts are published. then make a determination!

just jt

[Ol Erns]

I've been tasered numerous times, and I've used my Taser quite a few times. In the article, nowhere does it say that the guy was healthy. In rush hour trafic and out of control.........he's on something.......common people! Meth/Cocaine are stimulants. They will make the heart beat faster and when you get involved in a fight, sometimes the heart just can't take it anymore.........excited delerium. It's been diagnosed long before there were taser's. The Anoka Co. ME report is yet to come, but the toxicology will take a little longer. We'll see what they say. Who knows, maybe out of the 100's of thousands of taser deployments that take place every year, maybe they'll have the first direct relationship between taser use and the cause of death.(?) The Taser runs on very very very low amperage. High in voltage. Any of our VR friends that work with electricity will tell you, it's not voltage that will kill you, its the amperage. Taser international has taken the volttage and "tuned" it to the same electrical impulse that your brain sends out, thus when the circut is created, the muscle groups un between the circut receive a scrambled message.

 

Hipshot, I 'd like to agree with you more reagrding the German Shepherd......got one of those too 'cept he's 96 lbs. Taser causes less damage unfortunately. If I knew how to do it, I'd post a picture of the best partner in the world.

 

Erns

[Leeway]

Don't taze me bro! How does this relate to riding ventures? I thought maybe this topic was going to say that if you tazed your 1st or 2nd gen that it would run faster or something like that.

They haven't produced as of yet & quite frankly there is no hope for a 2nd gen, a first gen rider may ease up so a 2nd ginny can keep up, but let's face there is no fafter market aide to put them in the same class as a 1st gen, period! ! ! !

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[Leeway]

Best pro response so far. I've not gotten sufficent info to argue one way or the other. there was a charactor in a 60's TV program that intraduced the "got Barny'eed" term. I certainly hope this isn't one of those posts that becomes too contraversial for our forum. I know many of our bretheren are in law enforcement, and it wasn't my intent to get any heated banter amonst us. I only ran across the info by chance. I felt compelled to share. I appoligize if in doing so, it has offended anyone. Wayne

 

quote=Marcarl;166627]If a cop askes you to do whatever (comply) and you don't come in line with his request, then he can take whatever action he\she deems necessary. How are they to know your history, your condition or whatever. All you are showing them is that you are not in agreement with what they would like and if you then start to make a rukus over it, well be forewarned, they have tazars, guns and the like, you may get hurt, so respect their request. They're not looking to hurt or kill you, they just need to have the situation under their control so that all may work out for the better.

Just my humble opinion.

[spear]

Concerning what Marcarl said. If a cop is treating you inappropriately or is demanding you do something that you feel you shouldn't do, please, please comply and take him to the mat in court. One thing is certain, you'll lose if you fight on the street but you have a good chance, if your right, winning in a court of law.

 

By the way, if anyone cares, I only hassle teenagers on 10000 dollar bikes that go 175 mph AND don't have a license AND insurance. I have found that the VAST majority of cruiser riders are licensed and carry plenty of insurance. Other riders, not so much. Sorry young ones on this board, I just call them as I've seen them over the years. I have NEVER had one problem form any real Harley rider or real tour type bikers. Sport bikes on the other hand, don't get me started!!!!! I don't mean to profle, but you know what people say about profiling? "It works" I should exclude anyone over 30 on a high performance bike. Some of us can't let go of 18.

Been there, done that - and WON!

Spear (LEO Retd.)

[RoadKill]

I personally FULLY support LEO's. Wouldn't bother me a bit if they had shot him in the knee.

[ArcsSparks]

Having a Son and Daughter-in-law, both in law enforcement, I support the use of tasers they are a step between either doing nothing (walking away from someone that is unrully or maybe having bodily harm done to you) or shooting the idiot (.40 makes a big hole) I know s**t happens and people get hurt or dead when NON-lethal force is applied but what would you do? Leave the officer with only his service piece and a baton (also can be deadly). Bottom line, respect the law and the law officer and no hurt will come to you!