Intermittant Electrical/Start Issue

[rayserra]

I'm new to the forum and new to Yamaha as well, and recently acquired an '89 XVZ1300 with 18K miles. Have an issue with an intermittent electrical problem, and would like some experienced opinions regarding likely causes.

 

Initially when I tried to start it I got no response from the start button, yet all lights appeared to function, so I figured either the start button or relay. I jumped the positive battery terminal to the starter side of the relay and she fired right up, confirming the likelyhood of the start button being the culprit.

 

However, as I was pulling away (on a very bumpy gravel drieway) I hit a bump and the dash and headlight went out, bike still running. It was late at night, and I wasn't home, so I turned it around and headed back up the very bumpy driveway. I shut it down, turned the key off and back on, and tried the start button, but no response and no lights (bypassing the solenoid still worked though).

 

At the time I had only an owners manual for a 1200 (have since downloaded the service manual from this website, thank you very much) and noted the grounds for all the accessory lights in question are tied together to one grounding point. I removed several body panels and started rooting around looking for bad connections etceterra. Traced the ground to inside the left upper fairing, and it looked fine. In fact, all of the wiring connections looked pretty clean. This 23 year old machine must have spent most of its mostly dormant life indoors.

 

Anyway, after rooting around and not finding anything out of the ordinary (begging a ride home, getting some sleep and returning with some tools) I tried to start it again and it fired right up, but still no lights. I took the start button apart and it looked fine. I rechecked the wiring harness, fuses, etcetera and found only a couple of clues.

 

First, the fuse for the tail light was hot as hell (and has since melted), which seems to me must be a separate issue, probably a bad ground somewhere on the way to the tail, although I couldn't find anything.

 

Second, I noted a constant low current to the starter relay switch. Unfortunately all I had at the time is a test light (very dim light when voltage detected, not enough to throw the switch), and I haven't had an opportunity to get back into it to check it.

 

Now I figured I better get her home to work in the comfort of my garage, so I put it back together, and pressed start. To my surprise it fired right up, all accessories and lights working.

 

In addition, on the way home I received another clue. The lights and accessories were intermittenly shutting on and off, which seemed to coincide with progressively smaller bumps in the road.

 

I'll give the start button a more thorough examination, which may be the cause of the contant current to the starter relay switch. I'll also try to chase down what I feel is probably a faulty ground in the tail light wiring.

 

I'm thinking possibly the ignition switch.

 

Otherwise I was hoping someone with more experience with these machines might recognize the symptoms and point me in the right direction.

[muffinman]

Most of your problems sounds like the fuse holders are loose we have been replacing the fuse panel with the new blade style fuses.Skydoc sells a kit for it I believe.Also look at the side stand switch for the no power to solenoid from starter switch.

Welcome to the group

Jeff

[rayserra]

Thanks for the input Muffinman.

 

I will definitely check out the replacement, blade style fuse holder.

 

The side stand safety must have been bypassed, the first time I jumped the starter relay it was in gear. Almost tipped her over. I'll make sure the bypass is a clean connection though.

 

I understand the reason for the sidestand switch and everything, but come on, I need to be able to start it on its sidestand. The bike is too heavy to lift onto the centerstand so I can warm it up.

[KIC]

If your starter button is not returning all the way out your headlight will not come on. It does sound like more of a different electrical issue though. I'm sure more info from the Venture gurus here will be coming along...

 

Good luck on the repair.

[Marcarl]

I'm with Muffinman on the fuse holder, change it out before anything else, saves a lot of time for the future, it will also cause the wire to get hot and melt if it's intermittent.

Secondly, yes, when depressing the starter switch the lights are shut off, so if it doesn't return all the way, or the switch is dirty (often the case) then cleaning it will get 2 birds with 1 stone.

[Flyinfool]

I'm new to the forum and new to Yamaha as well, and recently acquired an '89 XVZ1300 with 18K miles. Have an issue with an intermittent electrical problem, and would like some experienced opinions regarding likely causes.

 

We are here to help.

 

Initially when I tried to start it I got no response from the start button, yet all lights appeared to function, so I figured either the start button or relay. I jumped the positive battery terminal to the starter side of the relay and she fired right up, confirming the likelyhood of the start button being the culprit.

 

This could be a lot of things. It could be the fuse, the start button, the side stand switch, Side stand relay, Diode assy, neutral switch, flasher relay assy, clutch switch, or any of the wires or connectors connecting all of this hoopla together.

 

However, as I was pulling away (on a very bumpy gravel drieway) I hit a bump and the dash and headlight went out, bike still running. It was late at night, and I wasn't home, so I turned it around and headed back up the very bumpy driveway. I shut it down, turned the key off and back on, and tried the start button, but no response and no lights (bypassing the solenoid still worked though).

 

At the time I had only an owners manual for a 1200 (have since downloaded the service manual from this website, thank you very much) and noted the grounds for all the accessory lights in question are tied together to one grounding point. I removed several body panels and started rooting around looking for bad connections etceterra. Traced the ground to inside the left upper fairing, and it looked fine. In fact, all of the wiring connections looked pretty clean. This 23 year old machine must have spent most of its mostly dormant life indoors.

Just because a connection looks clean does not mean it is. You have to take it apart and clean it and reassemble with some dielectric grease to keep it clean.

 

Anyway, after rooting around and not finding anything out of the ordinary (begging a ride home, getting some sleep and returning with some tools) I tried to start it again and it fired right up, but still no lights. I took the start button apart and it looked fine. I rechecked the wiring harness, fuses, etcetera and found only a couple of clues.

 

First, the fuse for the tail light was hot as hell (and has since melted), which seems to me must be a separate issue, probably a bad ground somewhere on the way to the tail, although I couldn't find anything.

 

Very common, Factory fuse holder is terrible, junk, yucky poo...... A bad ground will not make a fuse hot. ONLY a bad connection to the fuse itself will do that. New fuse holder kit from Skydoc_17 will fix many electrical gremlins.

 

Second, I noted a constant low current to the starter relay switch. Unfortunately all I had at the time is a test light (very dim light when voltage detected, not enough to throw the switch), and I haven't had an opportunity to get back into it to check it.

 

This is possible.

 

Now I figured I better get her home to work in the comfort of my garage, so I put it back together, and pressed start. To my surprise it fired right up, all accessories and lights working.

 

In addition, on the way home I received another clue. The lights and accessories were intermittenly shutting on and off, which seemed to coincide with progressively smaller bumps in the road.

 

Bad fuse block can do this.

 

I'll give the start button a more thorough examination, which may be the cause of the contant current to the starter relay switch. I'll also try to chase down what I feel is probably a faulty ground in the tail light wiring.

 

As mentioned above, a bad ground will not make a fuse get hot.

 

I'm thinking possibly the ignition switch.

 

Otherwise I was hoping someone with more experience with these machines might recognize the symptoms and point me in the right direction.

 

You have a number of seeming unrelated issues, the one common part is the fuse block. If it got hot enough to melt, then it is toast and not worth much effort.

As a short term temporary fix you can try taking each fuse out and gently squeezing the tabs closer together to get better contact and see if that helps your issues. it is very easy to break the tabs off while trying to get some grip back on the fuse but this will at least let you know if the fuse block is the real issue.

 

When you jump from the battery + to the starter side of the solenoid you have bypassed all of the safety circuits on the bike.

If you are going to jump the starter you are the one that must be sure it is in neutral and or on the center stand with the rear wheel off the ground.

 

I thought the start switch only turns off the headlight, not all of the lights.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Flyinfool

[KIC]

 

I thought the start switch only turns off the headlight, not all of the lights.

 

 

Good point !

[BuckShot]

Do a search on how to put these bikes on the centerstand. Its here somewhere and is very easy to do once you get the right technique down.

[DragonRider]

The bike will start while on the sidestand as long as the bike is in neutral or in gear with the clutch disengaged. If it wont start when in neutral on sidestand your switch is bad and needs to be replaced. Very easy job.

 

If your starter button is not returning all the way out your headlight will not come on. It does sound like more of a different electrical issue though. I'm sure more info from the Venture gurus here will be coming along...

 

Good luck on the repair.

[bkuhr]

I thought the start switch only turns off the headlight, not all of the lights.

 

A review of the 89 wiring diagram verifies the N.C. contact of the start switch takes out ALL items protected by the headlight 15A fuse, including Headlight Hi and Lo, reserve lighting unit and indicator, dimmer switch and indicator, and all of the panel meter lights.

 

The N.O. contact of the start switch provides a ground to the contacts of the /start circuit cutoff relay/ (internal part of 41R flasher relay). Assuming the other safety circuits(sidestand, neutral....)allow the coil of the /start circuit cutoff relay/ to energize, the grounded contacts apply a ground to the start solenoid coil, allowing solenoid to apply power to the starter.

 

I would expect the start circuit switch to likely be the problem effecting lighting (does not remake contact when released), and possibly the problem with failed start, although more likely for failed start would be one of the saftey systems locking out start.

 

Also do not forget that it is very easy to bump emergency stop switch, which will lockout starter system.

Edited July 4, 2012 by bkuhr

[rayserra]

Thank you all for your input and insight.

 

I did a pretty thorough check of the wiring harness up front, and everything looked pretty clean. I pulled connections apart where I could get my hands on them through the headlamp cover and top side covers; no signs of corrosion whatsoever. All the connectors looked brand new, and for the most part came apart pretty easily. The grounds I found up top were also clean and tight. One of the reasons I bought it is that it was obviously stored indoors for most of its life. Hasn't helped the body panels though, lots of broken tabs and busted corners, must've been jostled around a bit.

 

Anyway, the main fuse block (glass tube type) is making good connections. The tabs are tight and in good shape. Again, no signs of corrosion. Curious though that the tail light circuit is overheating. I'll look at it more closely for damage to the body, but again, all the tabs were tight and making good contact. If not a faulty ground what, besides a bad connection at the fuse itself, would make the circuit overheat?

 

bkuhr, if I understand your comment regarding the start switch providing ground to the solenoid, this explains why I'm getting constant current to it. I agree that the start button seems like the most likely culprit, it fits all the symptoms except the tail light fuse.

 

I'll check the various safety system lock outs, but don't have any reasons to suspect them in light of the insight gained regarding the start button. I see your point flyinfool about bypassing the safeties by jumping the starter relay.

 

Thanks again.

[bkuhr]

If not a faulty ground what, besides a bad connection at the fuse itself, would make the circuit overheat?

 

Please define what you mean by overheating.

 

The tail light circuit is protected by a 10a fuse, and should light the running (marker) (low intensity filiment of dual filiment bulbs) lights on all 4 corners(I think 2 bulbs in brake light housing is the 2 rear corners).

 

Also the 2 rear bulbs operate thru the cmu warning system on the dash. Is there a warning indication?

[jasonm.]

Some people suggest liberal dielectric grease on connections. This is the biggest mistake SOME people make. As the term dielectric = insulator. It did not take me 30+ years in electronics to know this. Find a dictionary. That type of grease is actually for plastic and rubber to seal out moisture. If your side stand switch was bad. The bike would shut off and not be allowed to start. Side stand switches can be bypassed if needed. I had my lights not work ONCE like you. I believe(not sure)...There is a relay that when you push the starter button turns off your headlight and allow more power to the starter. This relay could be an issue. Or someother wiring the previous owner did.

[rayserra]

bkuhr,

 

The fuse itself was hot to the touch. It has since melted the wire inside the glass tube. I don't think there is warning indication, but I'm not positive.

 

 

jasonm,

 

Would you recommend any extra measure for a connector that is in good condition? Something to keep moisture out.

[bkuhr]

bkuhr,

 

The fuse itself was hot to the touch. It has since melted the wire inside the glass tube. I don't think there is warning indication, but I'm not positive.

.

 

If the actual glass fuse was getting hot, that would be a very strong indication that the contacts of the fuse were making a 'partial' contact, likely due to corrosion or looseness of the contacts. The heating then is caused by the 'arcing' of the dirty contact.

 

I would be curious as to the actual amp flow across the tail light fuse. 4-1157 low filiment bulbs should draw about 1/2amp each or a total of 2 amps. If for some unlikely reason it was very near 10A, this could cause a hot fuse. Over 10A should blow the fuse, unless wrong fuse in.

 

( the bright filiments draw about 2.25A each(2 front are turns, 2 rear are brake) but they operate thru a different 'signal fuse').

 

Place a amp meter set to 20amp scale, and likely probes need to be placed in 20a ports, a remove fuse, and place both probes of meter where fuse was. Tail light should come on to indicate good contact, read the amps.