Motorvation Flip Nose Conversion

[lsutley]

Hi all,

 

I am planning to convert my Motorvation Formula II to a flip nose configuration. Although I have a few ideas percolating in my head I am looking for some photos of an original factory setup. Of particular interest is the hinge mechanism details and the design of the sealing surface arrangement at the joints.

 

This is not going to be a piece of cake, but my wife cannot climb in and out of the car as is.

 

Any help with as much details as possible will be greatly appreciated.

[DragonRider]

Very nice rig..........good luck with the conversion...........I am jealous, wish I had one like that!!:thumbsup:

[Condor]

I wish they had better pics on their website of how it looks flipped and closed. I bet if you called Mary at Motorvation and told them what you plan on doing they might help with some engineering plans...

 

http://www.motorvation.com/newIndexPix/100_2126.jpg

 

http://www.motorvation.com/f2kids1.jpg

[lsutley]

Condor,

 

Thanks for the information. I have spoken with the good folks at Motorvation concerning both a conversion of mine and the possibility of selling a flipper body for my frame. They gave me all the reasons that the conversion should/could not be accomplished. Mary stated that the sale of the body without the frame could result in the installation on an inferior frame and was not something they wished to accommodate.

 

My wish is to make this job as professional looking as possible and I think that there are possibly some improvements (over the original design) that can be made for easier entry and exit.

 

Carol has degenerative arthritis of the spine and it is very painful and embarrassing for her to struggle in and out of the car. I don't feel right leaving her at home, if I take a long trip, so here goes!!!

[Condor]

Condor,

 

Thanks for the information. I have spoken with the good folks at Motorvation concerning both a conversion of mine and the possibility of selling a flipper body for my frame. They gave me all the reasons that the conversion should/could not be accomplished. Mary stated that the sale of the body without the frame could result in the installation on an inferior frame and was not something they wished to accommodate.

 

My wish is to make this job as professional looking as possible and I think that there are possibly some improvements (over the original design) that can be made for easier entry and exit.

 

Carol has degenerative arthritis of the spine and it is very painful and embarrassing for her to struggle in and out of the car. I don't feel right leaving her at home, if I take a long trip, so here goes!!!

 

 

I would think it would be nothing more the beefing up the frame support, cutting the body to your liking...smallest kerf possible..., and laying in a couple of more fiberglass layers in the flip 'hood' for support and stiffness. Hinges and latches and your good to go. Easy.... Glad I don't have to do it.... Good luck....

[mini-muffin]

We have a motorvation sidecar it's an 84 we can send you pics of the set up on ours for how it opens. We've taken it off the frame because we are planning on painting it, so pics won't be a problem. I can post them up here or if you'd like send me a pm with your email and we can do it that way as well.

Margaret

[Guest tx2sturgis]

This guy used this side-deck for retrieving classic bikes, but I bet you could bolt down a lazyboy and have a helluva ride!

 

Seriously, would it be a better idea to build something from the frame up, and configure it as you need it? Then you could sell the existing side-hack and not risk damaging it. I'm worried that the re-worked tip-lid wont be as sturdy as it needs to be, especially at the hinge area.

 

Just my .

 

 

[lsutley]

We have a motorvation sidecar it's an 84 we can send you pics of the set up on ours for how it opens. We've taken it off the frame because we are planning on painting it, so pics won't be a problem. I can post them up here or if you'd like send me a pm with your email and we can do it that way as well.

 

 

Margaret

 

I would very much appreciate the pictures. The hinge, seals, reinforcements and anything that you might think important would be great.

 

Thanks a bunch.

[lsutley]

I am now at the point of no return. Pictures are attached. Alternative ideas and criticisms are welcomed. I will post more as the surgery continues.

 

[Carbon_One]

Looks like you've gotten it planned out well so far. What do you have in mind for a hinge system? Gas struts to support the upper body or whatever?

Larry

[camos]

If you have not already started on this I suggest rather than using plywood to stiffen the bottom it would be stiffer and probably lighter to use half inch or three quarter inch polyurethane foam instead. Cut the foam into several 3"-5" strips then layup the FRP over the strips. Once set up fill in between the strips with remaining foam and lay up over that the whole surface. This will give you something similar to a corrugated box which is very stiff considering it is just paper. To take it even farther, do the same thing going across the body before filling in with the last bits of foam. This would be somewhat like the idea of an egg crate which is also very strong considering it is just compressed pulp. For this type of layup I like to use a layer of 1-1 1/2 oz mat rolled out and then a layer of 6-10 oz roving rolled into the mat. The outside layup could be either a repeat of the mat and roving or just two layers of mat.

 

From the unevenness in your pic it looks like the body was originally constructed using a chopper gun which sprays cut fiberglass and resin. Also looks like there is probably a cloth layer in there as well. Not particularly strong but still effective and good enough for light duty. The same chopper gun method is often/mostly used to build small runabouts for pleasure use.

[lsutley]

Clive,

 

Thanks for your input. I am headed out to our local marina to get some more information regarding the proper resins and cloth, mat, or roving materials. I do not have a great deal of experience with this size of a glass project and it has to be right the first time.

 

With the current supporting frame design and the lack of rigidity of the "floor" the short sides that remain on the bottom half are likely to loose their desired shape. If I add a frame extension to provide complete perimeter support for the floor and install an 1 inch square tube loop on the inside edge that should keep everything ship shape.

 

Your explanation of the method, that you suggest would lead me to believe that you have some experience with this type procedure. My density barrier is on high today and I cannot visualize the process that your suggesting.

My plan is now to coat the plywood on all sides and edges with epoxy resin and let cure to the "green stage". Apply a layer of 10 oz, cloth and epoxy resin to the underside of the car and lay on the wood. Attach with a couple of SS screws to keep in place and turn the car over and put 20 or so SS screws through the floor into the wood. This should flatten the bottom to the wood and yield a proper bond. Once fully cured the protruding screw tips would be ground smooth and the wood would be glassed over with 3 layers of cloth and resin. During the final overlay steps the rounded perimeter would be extended and integrated smoothly into the original contour of the body.

 

The left curved lower edge will need to be extended/reformed into a more square shape to properly sit out onto the surface of the frame.

 

The upper body portion "lid" will also require the installation of a tubing hoop for shape retention along with a substrate for the weather seal. The hoop will serve as the upper hinge attachment and for the attachment of a hoop up around, under and behind the dash and down the inside to the hoop for stiffening.

 

I believe the interior steel bracing will be welded before installing inside using an epoxy glue and countersunk pop rivets spaced every 2 inches through the body in to the tube.

 

The reason for the relocation of the separation location, from factory specs, is to allow an extended opening to make entry and exiting the car easier. Motorvation makes the cut to coincide with the location of the wheel well box which is square and will need to be reformed to a rounded shape to allow the cut to be further to the rear for more room. The reshaping of the wheel well box is necessary to provide adequate spindle stub clearance when the body is shifted to the right to clear the electric lean framework.

 

Clive, I will be waiting on your foam/FRP laminate idea, before gluing on the food.

 

Thanks to all. With your help this may go fairly well.

[camos]

Your explanation of the method, that you suggest would lead me to believe that you have some experience with this type procedure. My density barrier is on high today and I cannot visualize the process that your suggesting.

A few decades ago I worked for two years laying up fiberglass in 40' to 65' yachts then became a commercial fisherman for 30 years where I did quite a lot of fiberglass work on my several boats. I have a love/hate relationship with fiberglass, hate working with it but love the results.

 

When fiberglass is laid over foam or any other material ie: plywood, it becomes a structural member like square tubing versus solid square stock or an I-beam. Structural members or engineered beams have much more rigidity than solid stock while being much lighter for a similar capacity. My two analogies, corrugated cardboard and egg crates have similar properties. You can easily see the properties at work by comparing a corrugated cardboard box to a standard cereal box which is also cardboard but not corrugated.

 

My suggestion for using longitudinal strips of foam laid over with fiberglass will create a structure similar to the corrugated box. It will be stiffed lengthwise but not across. Adding intermediate pieces of foam in between the longitudinal stringers will also add stiffness across the floor pan. The structure of this would be similar to the square welded mesh that is often used when pouring a concrete pad. Filling in the depressions and laying a layer of glass over the whole thing adds even more stiffness and would be similar to the studs and wall board that make up the walls of a house.

 

In your project probably 3 or 4 stringers lengthwise and 3 across would probably be more than adequate to be stiffer than a plywood sheet and much lighter. To stiffen the sides add glassed over foam strips along the inside bottom corners, like a 45 degree cant strip, and up the cut edges to make a door jamb. Where the hinges are to be mounted add a strip of metal thick enough to drill and tap for the screws.

 

In my previous post I mentioned 10 oz roving but that would actually be cloth. Roving is just cloth on steroids and I can't remember what weight the names change. For your job I think 10 oz material would be good since it is easy to work with. For a proper bond it is necessary to also use a layer of mat with either roving or cloth because the weave will only allow parts of the glass material to be actually touching the substrate.

 

It is important not to use too much resin as that will be weaker, brittle and heavier than it otherwise would be never mind being more expensive. I have found wetting out the mat fairly liberally makes the job easier and then add the woven material with out adding resin and roll it with a heavy hand until the top layer absorbs any extra resin in the mat then add more resin as needed to wet out the dry areas. Roll the layers together until there are no white spots. The white spots are air and they must come out to achieve proper strength. You will need a steel roller which is actually made of aluminum with a steel shank. A paint brush and a paint roller are both good to spread the resin. The small deep pile paint roller and a brush will probably be your best choice.

 

Getting the resin catalyst ratio correct is variable on temperature and humidity conditions so is somewhat difficult. Never work in the sun. Preferably lay the glass in cool conditions so you have more working time and heat can always be applied if it has not set up by the next day. In any case the resin will tend to set up much faster in the container than it will once applied to the glass so working with small batches is better particularly when doing fiddly corners and such.

 

Fiberglassing 101.

I think that is the basics that you will need to know but the devil is in the details and you only get that by doing it.

[twigg]

Think "surfboard".

 

A thin glassfibre shell over a styrofoam core. Very light and incredibly stiff.

[Guest tx2sturgis]

I have never worked with fiberglass but I can visualize what Clive is saying. The foam strips create a tubular 'space' for the resin to form around, essentially forming hollow square tubes in the fiberglass structure. After the curing is done, the foam is just 'there' and not actually doing anything structurally. And since it weighs almost nothing, it will not cause a weight penalty.

 

The wood floor will definitely add weight. And if there are any holes drilled through the wood floor for frame mounting points or such, then I can see where moisture might get in and begin to rot the wood, from inside.

 

Thanks Clive for the informative articles. Although the O.P. seems focused on using plywood, others out here reading this thread are learning something. Nothing beats real-world experience.

 

[barend]

I'll second what Clive said!!! Plywood sandwiched between fiberglass is a problem waiting to happen. balsa core or insulating foam are better choices if you insist on a solid insert. Laying up strips may be slightly more work since you have to cut the strips and applying the fiberglass over them will be more time consuming since you need t make sure you have no voids, but hell, with what you are already planning on doing what is a couple of extra hours.

[mini-muffin]

Here's the first batch of pics. We've stripped her down and she has no carpet. I'll get the rest up shortly as long as my internet wants to cooperate. If you have any questions call muffinman his number is in his profile.

Margaret

[mini-muffin]

Second batch. I'll get the rest in a bit.

Margaret

[mini-muffin]

I got more to go. Hope there's enough to give you an idea of everything you need.

Margaret

[lsutley]

I can't fully express my gratitude for taking the time to take and send the pictures. The ruler for reference pictures are especially helpful.

 

I now have a much clearer picture of what Mary at Motorvation was trying to explain concerning the difficulty with splitting a previously assembled car. With your help with the construction information and Clive's help with the fiberglass work, I may be on a roll.

 

Again thanks so very much,

[mini-muffin]

Here's the last of the pics. Internet was getting mad at me yesterday I guess wouldn't let me upload anymore. Good luck with the hack looking forward to seeing it when it's done.

Margaret

[lsutley]

The deed, she is done! After a couple of days of coiling up inside the sidecar with a grinder the split is complete. I guess that there is no turning back at this point and I may as well finish what I started.

 

Many thanks to mini-muffin and muffinman for their generous contribution of detailed photos of the Motorvation hardware.

[FuzzyRSTD]

I used to work for Bass Master Boats and then Bass Hawk Boat Manufacturing. The boat hull design came from a local here and we built these boats right here in Olive Hill KY for many years. It was said that Ranger took their hull pattern from our boats, and I partly believe it. These boats would turn without sliding at 70 mph and absolutely throw you out of the boat if you where not buckled in. They road like a luxury car in rough water to. I know because I took one of the first rides on our new 19 footer back in the late 80s at Cave Run Lake here in Kentucky. I also used to own one.

 

We used marine grade plywood in the construction of all the bass boats. The floor and the transom and even the deck of the fiberglass boats all had wood in them. The marine grade and then the wood pine stringers for the floor that the plywood attached to where 1" X 12" pine. I helped design all the floors in the new model boats and cut every piece of wood that went into the boat. I had patterns that I made for about six different designs of boats. I also attached the live-wells on the boats deck by hand.

 

The pine stringers where put in the boat hull and then sprayed with resin and a very light layer of chop. Then the marine grade 1/2 " plywood over that after the resin and light shop begin to set on the stringers. The marine grade plywood was then shot with the resin and chop on the down side and laid on the stringers. Then after the plywood was nailed in place, it was shot with resin and a light layer of resin and chop on top.

 

The transom was 4-6 layers of marine grade plywood with resin and chop in between each layer and sandwiched and placed in the back of the boat. Then a set of large vises where used to clamp and squeeze it all together to dry overnight.

 

We had very few boat floors that had to be replaced after many years of service. Some of which where caused because holes where drilled for the different connections and floor drains in the boat and where not properly sealed at the cuts/drilled holes after wards.

 

"Marine Grade Plywood" it has a sealer in it from the manufacturer. Cover all wood with resin and chop on the bottom. Roll it in with the correct tools (rollers) and no air bubbles or hot spots in the fiberglass. Clean up with acetone.

 

Fuzzy

Edited May 18, 2012 by FuzzyRSTD

[PBJ]

What an incredible labor of love.Good luck .

[ashley9187]

Looks like you've gotten it planned out well so far. What do you have in mind for a hinge system? Gas struts to support the upper body or whatever?

Larry

 

I have the Champion Escort sidecar on my venture and their bracing, mounting and hinge system alone duel gas struts makes for a super clam shell opening system. That is why I got the Escort, easy step in and out for my wife and for the same reasons as yours. You can try and see my bike and sidecar at this site

 

 

My facebook page has lots of pictures of my bike and also on photo bucket

 

http://s1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc474/ashley9187/

 

Hope the link works

 

Rick A