reddevilmedic Posted May 1, 2012 Author Share #26 Posted May 1, 2012 The rim of the cup goes into the barrel first. Bottom toward the lever.... the rim? if it was shaped like a "[" the open part would be going into barrell first. right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condor Posted May 2, 2012 Share #27 Posted May 2, 2012 the rim? if it was shaped like a "[" the open part would be going into barrell first. right? Correct. You might want to check it even if you think you did it right. The only way you wouldn't get any flow or pressure build up is if the thing is on backwards. I almost did the same thing the first time I rebuilt a brake master. Oh yeah.... another way is if you left the bleeder valve out of the caliper..... Just jokin'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddevilmedic Posted May 2, 2012 Author Share #28 Posted May 2, 2012 Correct. You might want to check it even if you think you did it right. The only way you wouldn't get any flow or pressure build up is if the thing is on backwards. I almost did the same thing the first time I rebuilt a brake master. Oh yeah.... another way is if you left the bleeder valve out of the caliper..... Just jokin'... i double checked it already. p.i.t.a. circlip! i want ed to make sure it didnt "fold" backwards. it didnt. everything looked good. maybe im bleeding them wrong...what is the procedure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condor Posted May 2, 2012 Share #29 Posted May 2, 2012 i double checked it already. p.i.t.a. circlip! i want ed to make sure it didnt "fold" backwards. it didnt. everything looked good. maybe im bleeding them wrong...what is the procedure? OK, From what I gather from your previous posts is the brake lines are full of airless fluid, the reserve is half full, and the cup is in correctly, your not runing Speed Bleeders, and you don't get any pressure build up or flow when pumping the lever and the caliper valves are closed. Try cracking the banjo at the master and pull back on the lever. Are you getting any fluid leaking out? If not, the problem is in the master, if you are the new lines are suspect. Also if the pistons are pushed back into the caliper you won't get any pressure build up until the pistons actually seat against the rotor.... just a thought.... Let us know what you come up with.. Bleeding proceedure should be the same as any other brake.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yammer Dan Posted May 2, 2012 Share #30 Posted May 2, 2012 When I tie the handle back I loosen Master cap enough for air to escape. Doing it inside or in good dry weather it shouldn't be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddevilmedic Posted May 2, 2012 Author Share #31 Posted May 2, 2012 OK, From what I gather from your previous posts is the brake lines are full of airless fluid, the reserve is half full, and the cup is in correctly, your not runing Speed Bleeders, and you don't get any pressure build up or flow when pumping the lever and the caliper valves are closed. Try cracking the banjo at the master and pull back on the lever. Are you getting any fluid leaking out? If not, the problem is in the master, if you are the new lines are suspect. Also if the pistons are pushed back into the caliper you won't get any pressure build up until the pistons actually seat against the rotor.... just a thought.... Let us know what you come up with.. Bleeding proceedure should be the same as any other brake.... im not getting any fluid past the master. i tried bleeding at each banjo bolt, start ing at master. just barely a drip would come out, and that is about every fifth or sixth try! i suspect the master is out of spec at this point, and since i removed the old plunger, the new seals just wont swell enough to fill the barrell. i got a m/c coming from pb&j, hope that does it. i will let you know. im taking a day off from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condor Posted May 2, 2012 Share #32 Posted May 2, 2012 im not getting any fluid past the master. i tried bleeding at each banjo bolt, start ing at master. just barely a drip would come out, and that is about every fifth or sixth try! i suspect the master is out of spec at this point, and since i removed the old plunger, the new seals just wont swell enough to fill the barrell. i got a m/c coming from pb&j, hope that does it. i will let you know. im taking a day off from it. Yeah.... You have problems somewhere in the master. When you insert the plunger and cup in the barrel did you have to kinda work to get the cup into it?? Also what's the opening at the base of the barrel look like. Sometimes they can get plugged up with crystals. Usually a good blowing out with compressed air will do the trick. Anyway somewhere in the master you have a problem. Tomorrow...since you taking today off.. .... try removing the banjo bolt completely, make sure you have fluid in the reserve...'bout half full... and try pumping the lever with your finger over the banjo hole, and while you have the banjo bolt out check the bolt passage for crud.... BTW attached is are pics of a tool I made to get that c-clip out. Also what makes things easier getting it out is to compress the piston into the cylinder and stick a small screw driver, pick, piece or wood, etc through the feeder hole at the base of the reserve to keep it out of the way when dealing with the clip... which can be a real PITA.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddevilmedic Posted May 2, 2012 Author Share #33 Posted May 2, 2012 Yeah.... You have problems somewhere in the master. When you insert the plunger and cup in the barrel did you have to kinda work to get the cup into it?? Also what's the opening at the base of the barrel look like. Sometimes they can get plugged up with crystals. Usually a good blowing out with compressed air will do the trick. Anyway somewhere in the master you have a problem. Tomorrow...since you taking today off.. .... try removing the banjo bolt completely, make sure you have fluid in the reserve...'bout half full... and try pumping the lever with your finger over the banjo hole, and while you have the banjo bolt out check the bolt passage for crud.... BTW attached is are pics of a tool I made to get that c-clip out. Also what makes things easier getting it out is to compress the piston into the cylinder and stick a small screw driver, pick, piece or wood, etc through the feeder hole at the base of the reserve to keep it out of the way when dealing with the clip... which can be a real PITA.... i did have to work in the plunger slightly, i more or less just slide in with very little resistance. i cleaned the reservoir really good i did have the m/c completely off and filled it, using my finger, as sugg, i tried to create pressure to move fluid out. just didnt go anywhere past the barrell. i just checked the ziptie thing again, after leaving it overnight (indoors) and nothing. the fluid barely went down, no resistance on lever at all. m/c hopefully on the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yammer Dan Posted May 2, 2012 Share #34 Posted May 2, 2012 Hope that cures it for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeeze Posted May 2, 2012 Share #35 Posted May 2, 2012 To me, it sound slike you're not getting Fluid from the Reservoir in front of the Piston. That may be because bith Holes, Feed as well as Pressure Relief Holes are plugged for whatever Reason. Maybe there went something wrong during the Rebuild of the Master, or there's Crud blocking the Holes. If you have the Master mounted on the Bike, you can look to the bottom of the Reservoir, there should be those two Holes to be seen. If you now move the Lever a little bit, you should see the Rubber Cup move with the Movement of the Lever, blocking both Holes one after another. The Feed is relative big, you should be able to see the Piston moving and blocking the Hole, the Pressure Relief Hole is tiny, most likely, you'll probabyl see only a dark Shadow coming and going as you move the Lever. If you move the Lever and see no change, there's something wrong with the Piston Area or the Lever. You didn't change the Lever to another whilst the Rebuild ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddevilmedic Posted May 2, 2012 Author Share #36 Posted May 2, 2012 To me, it sound slike you're not getting Fluid from the Reservoir in front of the Piston. That may be because bith Holes, Feed as well as Pressure Relief Holes are plugged for whatever Reason. Maybe there went something wrong during the Rebuild of the Master, or there's Crud blocking the Holes. If you have the Master mounted on the Bike, you can look to the bottom of the Reservoir, there should be those two Holes to be seen. If you now move the Lever a little bit, you should see the Rubber Cup move with the Movement of the Lever, blocking both Holes one after another. The Feed is relative big, you should be able to see the Piston moving and blocking the Hole, the Pressure Relief Hole is tiny, most likely, you'll probabyl see only a dark Shadow coming and going as you move the Lever. If you move the Lever and see no change, there's something wrong with the Piston Area or the Lever. You didn't change the Lever to another whilst the Rebuild ? i can see the pison moving back and forth. i cleaned both holes carefully. in fast i can see bubbles come up from one hole. it just wont push fluid. i did put on a new EMGO lever, and adjusted it to push piston as far forward as i could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condor Posted May 2, 2012 Share #37 Posted May 2, 2012 i can see the pison moving back and forth. i cleaned both holes carefully. in fast i can see bubbles come up from one hole. it just wont push fluid. i did put on a new EMGO lever, and adjusted it to push piston as far forward as i could. Now I'm starting to wonder if you bought the correct rebuild kit. When sliding the cup into the cylinder it takes a little 'shoe horning' to get it into the barrel.??? If it slips in fairly easily the cup may be undersized and not making good contact with the cylinder wall... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yammer Dan Posted May 2, 2012 Share #38 Posted May 2, 2012 I was reading thru this again and thinking same thing Jack. Wrong Cup?? What did you clean bore of MC with? Nothing that abrasive was it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddevilmedic Posted May 3, 2012 Author Share #39 Posted May 3, 2012 nothing abrasive...the kit i bought looks exactly the same as what came out. i even held up the old vs. new to see if the cups were undersized. they looked the same.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcarl Posted May 3, 2012 Share #40 Posted May 3, 2012 i can see the pison moving back and forth. i cleaned both holes carefully. in fast i can see bubbles come up from one hole. it just wont push fluid. i did put on a new EMGO lever, and adjusted it to push piston as far forward as i could. It is important that the piston comes all the way back, so there should be just a wee bit of play between the lever and the piston when it's relaxed or the piston won't be back far enough to 'breath' through the holes that Squeeze was talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddevilmedic Posted May 3, 2012 Author Share #41 Posted May 3, 2012 It is important that the piston comes all the way back, so there should be just a wee bit of play between the lever and the piston when it's relaxed or the piston won't be back far enough to 'breath' through the holes that Squeeze was talking about. theres just under 1/8 play between lever and piston, so it is drawing all the way back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condor Posted May 3, 2012 Share #42 Posted May 3, 2012 This is frustrating as all h3ll.... If you have fluid in the bore of the cylinder in front of the piston cup, and it's installed properly, and you pull the lever, fluid will come out the bottom master hole with the line removed. The only way nothing will come out is if there's nothing in there. I assume you tried forcing fluid up through the calipers and it came out into the reserve along with any air, and if that's the case it will work. I just got through bleeding the front calipers of my '99 and it took about 15 minutes from empty lines to seated pads, and that's with out reversing anything and with Speed-Bleeders. I don't know what else to suggest that might help at this time.... :confused07: Ya got me pardner.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingy Posted May 3, 2012 Share #43 Posted May 3, 2012 This will be a dumb idea, but it's about where you are at right now... Did you put cup on backwards ?? It won't build any pressure if you did. Don't even remember if you can. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddevilmedic Posted May 3, 2012 Author Share #44 Posted May 3, 2012 This is frustrating as all h3ll.... If you have fluid in the bore of the cylinder in front of the piston cup, and it's installed properly, and you pull the lever, fluid will come out the bottom master hole with the line removed. The only way nothing will come out is if there's nothing in there. I assume you tried forcing fluid up through the calipers and it came out into the reserve along with any air, and if that's the case it will work. I just got through bleeding the front calipers of my '99 and it took about 15 minutes from empty lines to seated pads, and that's with out reversing anything and with Speed-Bleeders. I don't know what else to suggest that might help at this time.... :confused07: Ya got me pardner.... tell me about it! yeah, forced fluid up into bore from bleeders. too much in fact, one time it shot up and hit the garage ceiling, another time overflowed bore. im sure i installed piston correctly. i pulled it out a 3rd time to to check again. cups going the right way. i squeeze the lever....and no fluid moves out....must be bad m/c. im thinking the cups just dont fill the barrell anymore. the old ones did because they were swollen...perhaps...pb&j overnighted me a m/c of an 85. will know tomorrow afternoon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkuhr Posted May 3, 2012 Share #45 Posted May 3, 2012 Parts 5 of the attached graphic is a good explnation of how master cylinder works (graphic auto type dual master). http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/mastercylinderreplace/howworks.html I think I read a post earlier that you could see cup seal moving past BOTH holes. Per the gra[hic, this would be improper. The big hole 'the equalization port' should always be behind the seal. Also the new seal could be damaged when operated PAST the 'normal' stroke while bleeding into a possible damaged/gooped bore area. Just some suggestions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkuhr Posted May 3, 2012 Share #46 Posted May 3, 2012 tell me about it! yeah, forced fluid up into bore from bleeders. too much in fact, one time it shot up and hit the garage ceiling, another time overflowed bore. im sure i installed piston correctly. i pulled it out a 3rd time to to check again. cups going the right way. i squeeze the lever....and no fluid moves out....must be bad m/c. im thinking the cups just dont fill the barrell anymore. the old ones did because they were swollen...perhaps...pb&j overnighted me a m/c of an 85. will know tomorrow afternoon... Due to no pressure in handle and no fluid flow out of master, I would have to say the small hole, 'fluid intake and return port' HAS TO BE PLUGGED. Even a bad or reversed cup would push some fluid out the easiest port, the OPEN master output. You are not getting any fluid in front of the cup seal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddevilmedic Posted May 3, 2012 Author Share #47 Posted May 3, 2012 Due to no pressure in handle and no fluid flow out of master, I would have to say the small hole, 'fluid intake and return port' HAS TO BE PLUGGED. Even a bad or reversed cup would push some fluid out the easiest port, the OPEN master output. You are not getting any fluid in front of the cup seal. i triple checked it. its not plugged. i used a TINY needle to check it, then a hair from a paintbrush. with a high power flashlight, i can see the piston move thru BOTH holes. i got the paintbrush hair thru it no problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeeze Posted May 3, 2012 Share #48 Posted May 3, 2012 I gotta admit, i'm stuck here. The Piston (Seal that is) clears both Holes, Fluid is in the Reservoir, with Movement of the Piston there should be created some Vacuum to suck Fluid in the Boring, in front of the Piston. not to mention Gravity, who alone should be able to fill the Bore. It's a Miracle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddevilmedic Posted May 3, 2012 Author Share #49 Posted May 3, 2012 I HAVE BRAKES!!!! Switched out master, brakes in 20 minutes! NOW i have a small problem...should be simple...on the old (83) brake switch has 2 wires, brown and green.....the new brake switch (85) has 4 wires, brown, green, yellow black....what should i do???? thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIC Posted May 3, 2012 Share #50 Posted May 3, 2012 I HAVE BRAKES!!!! Switched out master, brakes in 20 minutes! NOW i have a small problem...should be simple...on the old (83) brake switch has 2 wires, brown and green.....the new brake switch (85) has 4 wires, brown, green, yellow black....what should i do???? thanks. I've heard that if you cross the ...was it the Brown with the yellow...or was it the Green with the black, ...there is a small explosion.. Hey..it's just a rumor I started minutes ago.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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