high cost of freon by 2013

[jfoster]

Had our home a/c serviced yesterday and was told the price of freon was gonna ski rocket next year. Anyone in this line of work have any insight.

[Guest scarylarry]

In brief this is part of it:

 

Don't you love the EPA?

 

The EPA mandate has forced manufacturers to cut back on the production of r-22 freon, which makes the price go up because inventory is down.

[Venturous Randy]

I remember buying R12 for a car for .99 cents a can. Now R134 is $15 a can. It must be a lot more expensive to make.

RandyA

[Guest scarylarry]

It will and is being replace by R-410A

[DragonRider]

Every now and then Big Lots has some, I once bought it for $4.00 a can, since my ac in the van leaked I bought 6 cans, now every time I see it there I buy 2-3 cans, last time it was $8.00 a can, still a good price, I was in O'Reily's last week and saw it for 16.95 a can.

[Venturous Randy]

I might need to check with Big Lots as I need several cans of 134.

RandyA

Edited April 29, 2012 by Venturous Randy

[Flyinfool]

I sure wish it were legal to sell or buy freon in Wisconsin.

You need a license here. Even the mail order places all have a note, "Can not be shipped to Wisconsin"

[dacheedah]

I am having a problem with the air on my RSV, I can't find find the valves

[flb_78]

R22 is being replaced with R410 in household units

 

R12 was replaced with R134a and now that's being replaced with R1234.

 

Propane, butane and anhydrous ammonia are far superior coolants than any of the above.

 

I once charged my Buick with propane. After drawing a vacuum, it took 5oz of propane to get the proper pressures for the system to work.

[Carbon_One]

R22 is being replaced with R410 in household units

 

R12 was replaced with R134a and now that's being replaced with R1234.

 

Propane, butane and anhydrous ammonia are far superior coolants than any of the above.

 

I once charged my Buick with propane. After drawing a vacuum, it took 5oz of propane to get the proper pressures for the system to work.

 

Interesting? If propane is a cheaper and better coolant then why don't the manufactures use it instead of the others normally used?

Larry

[flb_78]

The giant refrigerated warehouses are cooled with anhydrous ammonia. A friend of mine went through training on becoming a service tech to work on those units.

 

Now as to why does the automotive industry use proprietary, patented chemicals from Dow Industries, well, you'd probably have to ask Congress about that. It seems that about the time that a U.S. patent runs out, some giant megacorp happens to have the next greatest thing and Congress agrees that the old stuff is dangerous and must be phased out.

Edited April 29, 2012 by flb_78

[MikeWa]

Explosive gases have some draw backs when used for automotive. Leaking into the passenger compartment and accidents to name two. R-12 and R-22 are very corrosive to the upper atmosphere and need to be, are being eliminated. In order for this to happen the cost of these refrigerants has to be high enough to get people to retrofit to R-134a and R-410. A few years ago R-12 was selling for well over $1000.00 for a 30 lb container. And it is no longer manufactured. The price has come down as demand dropped. Proof the plan is working. But it will go up again as supplies run out. So don't use R-12 or R-22. Change your system over. It is cheaper and better. Or just ride your bike.

 

Mike

[uncledj]

Went through the class to get certified for 410a about a year and a half ago. The thing that I found most troublesome was that that R410a is actually more harmful to the environment than the R22 that it's replacing. The justification is that since the new stuff is more efficient, there will be less CO2 produced by the powerplants because of the lower energy usage. The supposed benefit from lower CO2 outputs is supposed to outweigh the harm from leaked 410a.

Seems like pretty fancy math to me.

 

But what do I know....I just work on the stuff......There's gonna be a lot of r22 equipment out there for a long time to come. I got a few jugs in the shed I've had for quite a while that I think I'd best hang onto.

When they started changing R12 systems to R134, you could retrofit an existing system with the new gas......that's not the case now, as they phase out the 22. The 410a runs at higher pressures than current systems components are rated for, so there's really no options except to replace the entire unit / system.

It's all one big moneymaking game.

Edited April 29, 2012 by uncledj

[Flyinfool]

I used to work as design engineer for a place that designed and manufactured A/C equipment.

None of the refrigeration engineers liked R410a or R134a.

They both give less cooling per watt of of input power than the R22 and R12 that they replace.

So if you convert a car from R12 to R134a it will never get cold like it once did and it will burn more gas to turn the compressor.

Same in your house when you go from R22 to R410a (assuming your system can handle it) the amp draw on the compressor will be higher.

 

Unlike many Alkyl halide refrigerants, R-410A does not contribute to ozone depletion, and is therefore becoming more widely used, as ozone-depleting refrigerants like R-22 are phased out. However, it has a high global warming potential (1725 times the effect of carbon dioxide), similar to that of R-22.

 

Thats a lot of CO2 that needs to be offset.

[dacheedah]

Law of unintended consequences. We had a group of environmentalists fight the new landfill as the old one was full and capped. They stopped it and now there is a ton of Illegal dumping and everyone in the country just bury their trash so it is unregulated. Burning of trash has caused some wildland fires and a few deaths. . . Sometimes you think you have stopped an issue and the end result is you actually made it worse. Now the trash is hauled to Indiana and it's not cheep and every municipality has raised costs 500% and everyone is cutting employees so no oversight. Now the kicker, our ground water and river water comes from Indiana. . .

[Jactana]

http://www.duracool.com/

 

I use this stuff in my vehicles, similar to propane, works great. You can go right from R-12 with no conversions. It'll freeze your left one right off. Apparently not sold in America, however Americans can buy on line direct from them. Ron

[Venturous Randy]

I still have a can of R12 and a can of Feeze12 out in the garage.

RandyA

[OwenB]

I was an HVAC contractor 12 years, untill economy slumped, more mandates, etc... and it got much harder for a one man operation to operate.

The price of r22 has near tripled in the last few months and will go higher, production of new r22 will stop completely in September ( except for countries that did not sign ) and only recycled r22 will be available untill eventually, we knuckle under and buy even more stuff from China.

I tend to agree with the old patent theory, and I strongly disagree that the EPA mandates were right in any way. How can recent studies prove the detriment of a chemical that wouldnt even reach the upper atmosphere for at least 50 years? Thats kinda like saying oil is bad...

Luckily, my RSV wont need a charge for a long time.