Hard downshifting

[05Venture]

Hello, I am new to this site and will likely be joining soon as there is very good information here for $12.00 a year. My question is, I have a 05 midnight venture with 45,000 miles. I bought the bike a few months ago and changed the oil and bleed the fluids. ie clutch, brakes. When the bike is cool the shifting is perfect but if I get into traffic with stop and go it gets difficult to downshift. If I rev the engine a little it will shift better.

By the way, this doesn't always happen. Sometimes it will shift normal even in traffic but mostly it will not shift as I would like. Is this normal or what should I look for to help with the issue? Thanks in advance for any assistance.

I have upgraded the clutch spring already because the clutch was slipping when I got the bike. Just changed the oil again; went from Mobile 1 to Rotella T synthetic just to try something different, No change in performance after the change.

 

Thanks again!!

[LilBeaver]

First of all welcome to the site!

 

Few questions for you:

When you changed your spring, did you inspect/clean the plates and such before reassembly?

What does your clutch fluid look like now? How full is your reservoir?

 

It sounds to me like you may have some air in the lines still (although why it would happen when the bike is warm and not happen when cool is slightly inconsistent with that thought). The clutch is a pain in the rumpus to bleed without a vacuum bleeder. I know that it can be done (I have done it) but it is a heck of a lot easier with the proper tool.

 

Oil is the next thing to consider but I will leave that one to the 'experts'.

 

How many miles have you put on it since the last oil change?

[Yammer Dan]

Change clutch fluid and bleed system. Should help and sure won't hurt.

[mm482]

You may try tying pulling the clutch leaver all the way in and tying it to the handle bar. Keep it tied there over night. If there is air in the line it may back up to the M/C.

 

Earl

[Yammer Dan]

You may try tying pulling the clutch leaver all the way in and tying it to the handle bar. Keep it tied there over night. If there is air in the line it may back up to the M/C.

 

Earl

 

 

 

Leave the lid on the MC loose to do this helps. Lets the air escape easier.Tighten down the next morning before you try clutch.

[05Venture]

Thanks for the quick replies. I have bled the clutch fluid but it was manual with no vacuum bleeder. I suppose i could try it again.

I have tried the clutch lever tied to the handle bar over night but without loosening the MC lid.

I have ridden less than 1000 miles since the last oil change.

 

Yes I did clean and sand the clutch plates. the reservoir is just above the sight glass adn it looks clean.

[Guest tx2sturgis]

I wrote up this exact same issue with MY bike way back in the summer of last year.

 

I dont have any conclusions yet but this is what I THINK is happening.

 

Bleeding the clutch lines doesnt help. Lubricating the shift linkage doesnt help. When the clutch and oil are hot, in summer temps, it gets worse.

 

In cooler weather, or during the first few miles in hot weather after starting the bike, shifting is more or less normal.

 

Highway travel seems to lessen the problem, while in town shifting thru the gears, at stop lites and what-not, seems to make it worse.

 

And here is the kicker:

 

If you go back to Yamaha oil and a Yamaha filter, it seems to lessen the problem as well.

 

I dont know if it has to do with the way synthetic oil affects the clutch, or the transmission, or if possibly the aftermarket oil filters change the pressure in the oil system, but these are my suspicions, and not verified yet.

 

If you are finding the downshifting is getting REALLY notchy, try installing Yamaha Brand oil and filter. Let us know what you notice after that.

 

Good luck.

 

 

 

 

[Freebird]

Brian,

That is exactly the opposite of my experience. When I lived in Texas, my bike was always much harder to shift when using Yamaha oil. The first time I tried it, I couldn't wait to get back to Mobile 1. It's funny how we can all have different outcomes to the same attempts but it happens a lot when we start talking about oil. I found that my '88 Venture and my '99 both shifted much better with the synthetic.

[Guest tx2sturgis]

Brian,

That is exactly the opposite of my experience. When I lived in Texas, my bike was always much harder to shift when using Yamaha oil. The first time I tried it, I couldn't wait to get back to Mobile 1. It's funny how we can all have different outcomes to the same attempts but it happens a lot when we start talking about oil. I found that my '88 Venture and my '99 both shifted much better with the synthetic.

 

I wonder if it has something to do with the year and the particular clutch materials...or maybe just manufacturing tolerances from year to year.

 

I dont have the answer yet, so I was making a suggestion based on what I have found.

 

Last summer when I took it in to the dealer for a full service and valve adjustment, the dealer called back and said they had done everything and THEN took it out for a spin and no problem in the shifting. I'm thinking...huh? Did I forget how to shift a motorcycle?

 

Well sure enough, when I got the bike back, it seemed to have smoother shifting. Of course, the dealer put gen-u-ine Yamalube in the mill, and screwed on a nice new Yamaha OEM oil filter. It been more or less behaving correctly UNTIL I changed the oil and replaced it with SuperTech (Shell Oil) and a SuperTech Filter. I have run the hi-priced Rotella T6 and Amsoil and had the same notchy shifting issues.

 

Keep in mind that its a 100 mile round trip for me to go buy the Yammy stuff, which is doable if I decide to run it again.

 

I think I will pick up some Yamalube and Yamaha filter the next time I roll by a dealership, and after I have a chance to install it, I will have a better idea about this.

 

But yeah, its not over till the fat lady sings.

 

[Condor]

You may try tying pulling the clutch leaver all the way in and tying it to the handle bar. Keep it tied there over night. If there is air in the line it may back up to the M/C.

 

Earl

 

Sorry to pick on you Earl.. but it's not you... I coulda chose Dan.. or a lot of others .... I see this method suggested all the time, but it's an old wives tale. It's a physical imposibility for it to work.... With the lever tied to the grip the master piston cup moves past the only two air outlets that exist in the system and will trap any air that can escape into the reserve. The amount of resistence pressure applied to the lines is not enough to reduce the size of the air bubbles significantly, and since they have no place to go, it makes no difference. You'd be better off leaving the lever out, and turning the bars to the right stop, eliminating any 'high' spots in the line, and letting it sit overnight with the reserve cover on. Getting the bike upright off the side stand would be best.... those lucky 1stGen'rs with their center stands!! .....

[allwx]

I'd look more closely at the shift linkage. You've got, I think, three ball-in-socket type joints. If any one of them gets a little dry it will bind the whole operation. It will show up as hard to shift, and it can come and go, sometimes worse, sometimes better.

 

To get grease into those joints, you'll have to do a bit of disassembly. Maybe you can do it without taking anything apart, but I've found that a thorough lubrication of the linkage requires taking the left footboard off and exposing the linkage so you can get your hands into position. There is an opening behind each joint. You push (or pull) the ball away from the opening... it will move maybe a quarter-millimeter... and then you use your finger to daub some white grease into that little hole. Keep daubing and pushing until you see grease oozing around the ball. Then work the joint back and forth, around and 'round, to further distribute the grease. Do this will all the joints.

 

I also take the shifter lever out of its mount, clean and grease the pivot. This bike has 45k on it, and is several years old. I'd be willing to betcha that this has never been done. I have to do this on mine about once a year, otherwise I can feel things getting stiff.

[Sailor]

Got the same problem but it only happens when I am sitting still. As long as I am moving, even a little, it shifts easier.

[Mariner Fan]

I wonder if it has something to do with the year and the particular clutch materials...or maybe just manufacturing tolerances from year to year.

 

I dont have the answer yet, so I was making a suggestion based on what I have found.

 

Last summer when I took it in to the dealer for a full service and valve adjustment, the dealer called back and said they had done everything and THEN took it out for a spin and no problem in the shifting. I'm thinking...huh? Did I forget how to shift a motorcycle?

 

Well sure enough, when I got the bike back, it seemed to have smoother shifting. Of course, the dealer put gen-u-ine Yamalube in the mill, and screwed on a nice new Yamaha OEM oil filter. It been more or less behaving correctly UNTIL I changed the oil and replaced it with SuperTech (Shell Oil) and a SuperTech Filter. I have run the hi-priced Rotella T6 and Amsoil and had the same notchy shifting issues.

 

Keep in mind that its a 100 mile round trip for me to go buy the Yammy stuff, which is doable if I decide to run it again.

 

I think I will pick up some Yamalube and Yamaha filter the next time I roll by a dealership, and after I have a chance to install it, I will have a better idea about this.

 

But yeah, its not over till the fat lady sings.

 

 

Brian, my bike runs best on Yamalube too. Runs quieter and shifts smoother.

[Yammer Dan]

Sorry to pick on you Earl.. but it's not you... I coulda chose Dan.. or a lot of others .... I see this method suggested all the time, but it's an old wives tale. It's a physical imposibility for it to work.... With the lever tied to the grip the master piston cup moves past the only two air outlets that exist in the system and will trap any air that can escape into the reserve. The amount of resistence pressure applied to the lines is not enough to reduce the size of the air bubbles significantly, and since they have no place to go, it makes no difference. You'd be better off leaving the lever out, and turning the bars to the right stop, eliminating any 'high' spots in the line, and letting it sit overnight with the reserve cover on. Getting the bike upright off the side stand would be best.... those lucky 1stGen'rs with their center stands!! .....

 

Have used this several times. It Works!!!

[Condor]

Have used this several times. It Works!!!

 

Sorry Dan, but it can't.... Explain to me how the air can get out of the system. I willing to learn...

[67mini67]

I had a similar issue, hard to very hard shifting. Was very baffled and didn't know where to turn until the shifter lever fell off in a parking lot. LOOSE SCREW (on the bike). Tightened up the bolt and everything worked great. It appears that as that bolt loosens shifting gradually gets more difficult. I bring this up as to eliminated the simple things first. Good luck

[bkuhr]

Sorry Dan, but it can't.... Explain to me how the air can get out of the system. I willing to learn...

 

Possible theory

 

When master tied back and allowed to sit, any air below master rises up to the master.

On master release, pressure from slave returning fluid to master also returns to master any air that was just sitting right there. Vice Versa, with master handle left released, air still rises to highest point, up to master, but when handle squeezed, pressure toward slave also moves air toward slave, and nothing gained. All the sitting time is to allow micro bubbles created to form back into large, bleedable bubbles. Micro bubbles stick to inside wall of tubes and lines and do not move very much. AVOID micro bubbles at all costs!

 

My personal opionion is to operate master SLOWLEY! when bleeding to prevent breaking air bubbles into micro bubbles. Along with vacum bleeder I squeeze 3 times slowley (to build pressure)then crack bleeder. Then again, and again,... Never tried speed bleeders but I will sometime.

 

Thats my story and I am sticking to it.

[spke]

Can't explain it but I say it works as well.

 

Changed the top brake line back to stock(on my Roadstar) and went thru maybe 1/2 bottle of fluid trying to get nice hard brake back. Got brake but still a bit squishy. Tied the lever to the thottle over night and next morning after releasing it I have a nice hard brake. Have ridden it numerous times since and still same hard pull. Can't pull lever to the throttle.

 

sp!ke

[djh3]

OK throw this in: Clutch still part of possibility not fully disengaging. I still find myself shifting with a finger between the bar and clutch lever. Guess its the old school in me, thats the way I learned to ride. Anyways upshifts dont seem to be problem but ocasionaly downshifts are not real smooth, I'm guessing because clutch is not all the way in. So part of his problem could be that. Second part is he said when warm its harder. With engine warmed up things expand right? So tollerances are a bit tighter. But if you hit the RPM right no problem, thats why alot of V-twin folks blip throttle to downshift, well that and so they can hear them loud a$$ pipes make uneeded racket.

[Condor]

Possible theory

 

When master tied back and allowed to sit, any air below master rises up to the master.

On master release, pressure from slave returning fluid to master also returns to master any air that was just sitting right there. Vice Versa, with master handle left released, air still rises to highest point, up to master, but when handle squeezed, pressure toward slave also moves air toward slave, and nothing gained. All the sitting time is to allow micro bubbles created to form back into large, bleedable bubbles. Micro bubbles stick to inside wall of tubes and lines and do not move very much. AVOID micro bubbles at all costs!

 

My personal opionion is to operate master SLOWLEY! when bleeding to prevent breaking air bubbles into micro bubbles. Along with vacum bleeder I squeeze 3 times slowley (to build pressure)then crack bleeder. Then again, and again,... Never tried speed bleeders but I will sometime.

 

Thats my story and I am sticking to it.

 

Like a lot of theories they still have problems in application. Remember, we're talking about bleeding the clutch, not the brakes. You can't build up pressure in the clutch line like you can with the brakes...

With the lever clamped to the grip, air can not get to the master. The 'cup lip' moves beyond the micro hole and cuts off any possible air egress...

Now maybe some air does gather in the base of the master cylinder in front of the cup, and the next morning you release the lever. What happens? Upon release the cup moves back allowing fluid from the reserve to by-pass the cup into the cylinder, and the slight ambiant pressure from the reserve fluid hinders any air from readily passing through the micro hole. You squeeze the lever again, and ooops there goes the air back down into the line. DOT III is thin, but still has a viscosity and air doesn't travel freely like water, and that hole is so small not much can get through it quickly. I have been able to just 'tap' the lever slightly and get micro bubbles to make it through the micro hole by increasing the pressure ever so slightly in the cylinder, but it takes a long time to get any large amount to pass.

So again clamping the lever down isn't going to get any air out of the lines.

Another thing that needs to be addressed is; do not leave the top off the reserve overnight. DOT 3&4 absorb moisture very easily. That's why it's better to use several small bottles of fluid rather than one large, or at least keep the larger container capped, and why bleeding the brakes should be done every year but not later than two. Leaving the top of the reserve off has the same effect as any exposed fluid and it will absorb moisture.

The air in the line problem usually only happens the clutch is being bled, and can reduce grown men to tears trying to get it out. Speed bleeders help a bunch, especially with the brakes. With the clutch, and the lines purged of air, they work great...but don't help a bunch when there is air in the lines. That's when I champion reverse bleeding.

My

[Yammer Dan]

Sorry Dan, but it can't.... Explain to me how the air can get out of the system. I willing to learn...

 

 

You leave the Master lid loose and this thing called gravity. Have you heard of it??Air is lighter than brake fluid....Pulling the handle in gives air a way to get out.

[Condor]

You leave the Master lid loose and this thing called gravity. Have you heard of it??Air is lighter than brake fluid....Pulling the handle in gives air a way to get out.

 

Dan, with all due respect... Truthfully have you ever rebuilt a clutch master, and watched what happens when you pull in on the lever? And, yes I've heard of gravity, but it's bouyancy that causes the air to rise......

[Squeeze]

Condor, with all due Respect but you're wrong.

 

It works.

 

You're right about the Air can't escape as long as the Lever is pulled to the Handle Bar.

 

The trapped Air will form bigger Bubbles and these will escape when you let the Lever loose the next Morning. The main Key here is, you need to make sure there's now Bow in the Line that goes above the Fluid Level in the Reservoir, the Steering should be place so that the Banjo Bolt should be at the highest Point AND there gotta be some hydraulic Pressure created in the Line when you pull the Lever. No Pressure means no Work is forcing the Bubbles in the Fluid to gather and elevate in the Line.

[Condor]

Condor, with all due Respect but you're wrong.

 

It works.

 

You're right about the Air can't escape as long as the Lever is pulled to the Handle Bar.

 

The trapped Air will form bigger Bubbles and these will escape when you let the Lever loose the next Morning. The main Key here is, you need to make sure there's now Bow in the Line that goes above the Fluid Level in the Reservoir, the Steering should be place so that the Banjo Bolt should be at the highest Point AND there gotta be some hydraulic Pressure created in the Line when you pull the Lever. No Pressure means no Work is forcing the Bubbles in the Fluid to gather and elevate in the Line.

 

Squeeze I think you need to read all of my previous posts before passing judgement on what I've posted. We do agree on one thing. Air can't escape with the lever pulled to the grip and left over night.

 

But.... I'll reiterate. Just securing the clutch lever against the grip, and leaving it that way overnight, in itself will not purge any air in the lines.... Will not work!!! For those reasons already posted. But here's a few answers to your explaination as to why it will...

 

Any pressure created by pulling the lever back is not enough to cause air to gather into larger bubbles, but it will cause the air molucles to compress and to become slightly more soluable.

 

Releasing the lever in the AM will not allow the air to escape thru the expansion hole as there isn't enough pressure to force it through, and bouyancy alone is not enough for it to pass through that hole. Pulling back on the lever will only force the air back down the line unless done in small short bursts.

 

Putting the banjo bolt at the highest point will trap air behind it. The reserve needs to be the highest point in the whole scheme of things.

 

So if you still think I'm wrong...that's OK, I'll bleed mine in 20 minutes and go ride. See ya'll tomorrow...

Edited April 27, 2012 by Condor

[Sylvester]

Too many people smarter than me commenting on this post, so I'll sit back and read for the solution.