Fuel pump issue

[dacheedah]

Don't put dielectric grease on your contact points, it's non conductive, you put it around the wires and and connectors or over a good connector to fight off corrosion.

[Keemez]

Don't put dielectric grease on your contact points, it's non conductive, you put it around the wires and and connectors or over a good connector to fight off corrosion.

 

No grease involved so far.

[jasonm.]

Well, it did it again. This time after several hundred miles of riding with no apparent issue. The only thing that seems to be common in each of these instances is that the fuel level in the tank was below 25% or so, and I'm ruling that out as being an issue because I know I thoroughly blew out the vent lines.

 

I received the spare fuel pump relay (thank you, Dingy) and it is currently installed but haven't tested it yet. I will be embarking on a multi thousand mile journey to put it through its paces. One oddity I noticed before I installed it- it does not seem to be the same size as the one I pulled off my 93. I'm wondering if the one I had in there (I got this scoot used with 60557 miles on it, so I don't intimately know its service history) was nonstock, although it looks just like several of the other ones up under the dash there. If anybody else has their dash apart, take a look at that relay and see if it matches the spare that I got from Dingy (on the left side of the pics I will attach) or the one I pulled outta there (right side in the pics). I gotta say- I'm a bit confused about this.

based upon the wire colors stated earlier in this thread. And looking at my '86 parts bike. The larger relay shown is the correct one for 83-89. But due to the change in the ignitor in '90...they may have also changed the relays.

[Keemez]

I'm quite certain I have it solved now. It appears that one of the check valve diaphragms in the pump came out of position. I noticed the little rubber thing floating loose in there when I had it apart last time, but I didn't think much of it at the time. Then when I was taking a closer look at Dingy's dissected pump pics (referenced earlier in this thread), I noticed the difference between his and mine. I managed to push the backer plate down and get the diaphragm reinstalled into position again, and I'm sure that will cure my ills.

What DOES annoy me is... how and why did that thing come put of position in the first place? It just doesn't make any sense to me. You can see it laying on top of the pump cover gasket in the attached photo. The little teat goes into the silver backing plate, and the whole (as in... entirety) of the diaphragm has to go underneath the plastic boss. The entire affair is spring loaded on the back side. If you have to get that far into your pump you'll see what I'm talking about- pictures are hard to capture the essence of it.

Hopefully this will be my last post about this subject. Except maybe I'll report on the success (or failure) after my long journey.

[KIC]

Well, it did it again. This time after several hundred miles of riding with no apparent issue. The only thing that seems to be common in each of these instances is that the fuel level in the tank was below 25% or so, and I'm ruling that out as being an issue because I know I thoroughly blew out the vent lines.

 

I received the spare fuel pump relay (thank you, Dingy) and it is currently installed but haven't tested it yet. I will be embarking on a multi thousand mile journey to put it through its paces. One oddity I noticed before I installed it- it does not seem to be the same size as the one I pulled off my 93. I'm wondering if the one I had in there (I got this scoot used with 60557 miles on it, so I don't intimately know its service history) was nonstock, although it looks just like several of the other ones up under the dash there. If anybody else has their dash apart, take a look at that relay and see if it matches the spare that I got from Dingy (on the left side of the pics I will attach) or the one I pulled outta there (right side in the pics). I gotta say- I'm a bit confused about this.

 

 

Isn't the 41R the blinker relay ?

 

I just pulled two relays off of my 2 84 parts bikes and one was the 41R the other bike had a smaller one similar to the one on the right. (pictures below)

 

I just sent the 41R to Ozlander...hope it is the correct one. This one below appeared to be from the same harness plug location on the other bike.

 

The writing on it says:

 

5A8-00

OMRON

14Y3D9

 

I had tried to cross reference it before and didn't really come up with anything substantial..

[Keemez]

Isn't the 41R the blinker relay ?

 

I just pulled two relays off of my 2 84 parts bikes and one was the 41R the other bike had a smaller one similar to the one on the right. (pictures below)

 

I just sent the 41R to Ozlander...hope it is the correct one. This one below appeared to be from the same harness plug location on the other bike.

 

The writing on it says:

 

5A8-00

OMRON

14Y3D9

 

I had tried to cross reference it before and didn't really come up with anything substantial..

 

I think there are a couple 41Rs up under there. I'm not sure what the difference in all those is nor have I done much research on what any of those indications mean. All I know for sure is that the relay Dingy sent me is definitely different than the one I pulled outta there, and now I'm back to thinking that my original relay was probably fine.

[Ozlander]

Isn't the 41R the blinker relay ?

 

I just pulled two relays off of my 2 84 parts bikes and one was the 41R the other bike had a smaller one similar to the one on the right. (pictures below)

 

I just sent the 41R to Ozlander...hope it is the correct one. This one below appeared to be from the same harness plug location on the other bike.

 

The writing on it says:

 

5A8-00

OMRON

14Y3D9

 

I had tried to cross reference it before and didn't really come up with anything substantial..

 

Actually, the one you sent me is a fuel pump relay. Just got around to checking it.

 

The flasher relay is just to the left of that one and looks like this

 

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c33/Ozlander/Flasherrelay001.jpg

 

Do you want me to send it back?

And I still need the flasher relay.

[Keemez]

The saga continues. After I resecured the check valve in the pump, I thought it was going to be ok. After nearly 3000 miles, I still have an intermittent problem. I got back home and looked at the pump innards expecting to find that check valve out of position again, but it was still where I left it. Then I looked closer and discovered that the little protrusion on the back side wasn't quite fully seated in its hole, so I thoroughly played with it and got it to seat as good as it's going to get, and retested. Same thing.

Near as I can tell here's what's happening. Bike runs fine most times. I'm not convinced that the pump is running as frequently as it should to keep the carb bowls filled. Just this afternoon I let it run in the driveway with the pump connector unplugged. When it started to stumble I plugged the connector back together (expecting the pump to run immediately and refill the carbs)... nothing. As soon as I cycle the kill switch off and back on, the pump takes off and everything operates normally again.... until the cycle starts all over again. It was doing this at random times (seems more frequent in warm temps at lower speeds and low loads) all along my trip. Cycle the kill switch a few times and it takes off again for a random period of time.

Has anybody else experienced this same syndrome?

Edited August 4, 2012 by Keemez

[frankd]

The fuel pump only has power applied to it for a couple of seconds when you turn the key on or cycle the kill switch AND when the motor is turning over. When you unplug the pump connector and the bike runs out of gas and dies. If when you plug it in, the motor is not turning over, the fuel pump has no power applied. When you cycle the kill switch, it receives power for a few seconds. The fuel pump doesn't cycle all the time it has power applied. It only cycles when the carbs need fuel.

 

To tell if you have a fuel pump problem OR a relay problem, connect a small 12 volt light across the fuel pump leads. Then when you have problems, look and see if the light is on or not. You could mount the light where you can see it easily, but make sure you run the wires carefully so they don't get burnt on the exhaust.

 

Frank D.

[bongobobny]

Hey Frank, we suggested that in chat last night! Great minds think alike...

[jasonm.]

I did a fair bit of troubleshooting. At first I thought maybe the pump was clogged up with some junk so I took it off the bike and disassembled it slightly (pulled the cover off)- it was spotless. Applied power to it using battery charger and it runs as commanded- I'm calling the pump good.

Then I thought maybe the filter was full of debris. Once I had it cut apart it also appeared spotless. Took the fuel sender out of the top of the tank- petcock screens are spotless although there is some minor rust in the tank in general. But since the screens look good I'm not worried about it.

Relay seems to be energizing and de-energizing with every throw of the kill switch or ign key- the contacts in the connector were pretty clean but I gave them a little more bite just for good measure.

As I mentioned in my last post the only other thing I suspected might have been wrong was plugged vent lines from the tank, and I made sure that's not an issue. The bike runs great otherwise so I am skeptical of a TCI (or associated wiring). Both times that it did this was when the tank was getting closer to empty, but still had maybe a gallon left in it.

you had just a gallon left?. If that's the case, you should have been on the reserve setting(petcock). If not on reserve...say "OOPS"...FYI- this system has a timer circuit to protect from broken fuel lines causing a fire , etc. Meaning pump will only run CONSTANT for approx. 3 to 5 seconds when connected to the electrical "system" as designed.

Edited October 13, 2012 by jasonm.

[Keemez]

you had just a gallon left?. If that's the case, you should have been on the reserve setting(petcock). If not on reserve...say "OOPS"

 

I always.... always always always run in the reserve position. Don't make any sense not to.

[Keemez]

Wellp... I got thrown for a loop on this one but I think it's good now. I know, I know... I said that before. Several of us were ciphering about this in chat the other night, and it was shortly thereafter that it seemed to solve out. Drum roll please....

 

dbdbdbdbdbdbbdbdbdbdbddbdbdbdbdbdbbdbdbdbdbddbdbdbdbdbdbbdbdbdbdbddbdbdbdbdbdb

Placing my original fuel pump relay back into the circuit seemed to cure it.

 

Let me back up a little bit and give you the troubleshooting lowdown. After our chat session the other night I was inspired to watch what was going on using a voltmeter. Probing the blue wire at the fuel pump connector, I had battery voltage at key on or kill switch on (engine not running)... for a few seconds, and then it would drop to zero. Dropping to zero without the engine running is what we would expect to see- the TCI says "hey the engine isn't running, so I'm shuttin the fuel pump (relay) off..." *click* So then I thought to myself: I'll fool the system- I'll get the engine running, unplug the connector and then watch the voltage while the ignition signal is present (fuel pump should be commanded on/energized at all times). Same thing- the voltage kept dropping back to zero even with the engine running. Mind you, all of this (plus the 3000 mile voyage in which I had intermittent problems) was with the spare/replacement relay that Dingy had sent me, which as you recall via post #25 in this thread I had noted the difference in the one he sent me vs. the one I pulled out ("stock" or not, I don't know... suspect stock).

So I took the windshield and dash back off, swapped the relay back to my original and watched voltage again- tadaaaaaa! Batt voltage at all times (except after the ~4 second no-RPM cutout)!!!! I've only ridden it about 35 miles since but no issues have cropped up so far.

Apparently those relays ARE different enough to result in some functionality issues. Jasonm may have been right about the possible change in relays due to the different TCI setup on the 90-93 models.

 

Moral of the story (and we should all know this anyway)... ONLY CHANGE ONE THING AT A TIME! Remember, I had put Dingy's relay in at the same time I discovered the mechanical dislocation of the check valve in the pump. I solved one problem and unknowingly created another, which resulted in practically identical symptoms and driveablility problems.

 

So... Dingy, did you want that relay back or should I wing it on to the next guy (83-89, apparently) that needs it?

 

Thanks to Bongobob, FLB78, and Flyinfool for their contributions to the tech chat aspect.

[bongobobny]

Yayyyyyy!!!:banana::banana::banana:

[Brown Angel]

I have 3 spares, if you need one, its yours.

 

Relay is about 1/2" longer than other relays in headlight bucket.

 

Gary

 

Gary is there a place here that has the relays that are shown and even detailed as to how to hook up , simple question but difficult on my end. Thanks

 

Angel

[dingy]

Gary is there a place here that has the relays that are shown and even detailed as to how to hook up , simple question but difficult on my end. Thanks

 

Angel

Thread linked below may help you.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=68952

 

You should PM me or others if you have a direct question, lot of times I may not open an old thread like this one, and would have missed the help request.

 

Gary

[Keemez]

Dang thing..... did it again! That stupid little diaphragm check valve got itself out of position somehow and this time rendered the fuel pump inop altogether, and not at a good time. Not dangerous, just bad timing.

On my way home from work I stopped where I had to leave the scoot, yanked the battery out and the fuel pump off (cuz I knew it was one of those two issues), and when I applied 12v (batt charger) to the pump she was locked up. So I took the outer cover off again and sure enough- there's that dang valve. Put er back together proper and it pulses like it should.

I don't know what else to do to this thing to make that diaphragm not pop out of its spot. Would anybody be willing to cough up a known good one from a lower mileage unit? Mine is coming up on 85k miles. At the moment I'd kind of prefer to stick with an OEM vs. the Mr. Gasket type, especially if anybody has a cheapo one.

[jasonm.]

don't be discouraged. There are many Yamaha fuel pumps w/ 1/4" ports on many different models. Physically they are the same except for port(hose) angle and port size. You need to go to the Yamaha parts webb site and do a comparison and get one off ebay. FYI-There are some pumps w/5/16 ports. Just don't make that mistake. I believe the old FJ1100 & 1200s from the 80's and 90's used the same pump...exactly. Since you are used to disassembling the pump...angle may not be an issue. As you can just trade the "tops". http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/myyamaha/prompt/L3Nwb3J0L3BhcnRzL2hvbWUuYXNweA==/Parts%20Catalog/starthere.aspx