Engine dies when shifting, cranks for long time before starting

[LilBeaver]

Hey Beav I don't propose to be an expert on this but I just wish to throw out a suggestion. How are your plug wires? Are they in good order? You know don't have a cut in them are clean inside the caps. Just my 2 cents.

 

Ahoy:

 

Sorry, I had thought I responded to this right away, obviously I did not.

 

I did inspect my plug wires and they all seem okay. I opened each one, checked resistance and cleaned the springs (only one had a little corrosion build up on it).

 

[OutKast]

I installed a dyna-3000 on mine thursday nite. Rode to and from work Fri with no cut-outs or hard starts. I will keep you guys informed.

[cw1263]

This may not be related, when starting my bike sometimes it will die right away, hit the starter again and it will crank along time. have noticed if I turn key to off then back on starts right away when starter button is pushed. Almost like that resets something? I have no other problems with bike. Also am getting 46-50 mpg, only mod is RK mufflers. I get that solo (210lbs) or two up (360). I check almost every tank 9000 mi last year 7000 so far this year. 2006 rsv midnight

[RedRider]

This may not be related, when starting my bike sometimes it will die right away, hit the starter again and it will crank along time. have noticed if I turn key to off then back on starts right away when starter button is pushed. Almost like that resets something? I have no other problems with bike. Also am getting 46-50 mpg, only mod is RK mufflers. I get that solo (210lbs) or two up (360). I check almost every tank 9000 mi last year 7000 so far this year. 2006 rsv midnight

 

Ignition switch.

 

RR

[ragtop69gs]

Ignition switch.

 

RR

 

:sign yeah that:

[OutKast]

Update - With the new Dyna 3000, ran back and forth to week all last week no symptoms. But over the weekend and twice this week, I have had the "shutdown". All within 1/4 to 1 mile from startup. Never when sitting still, and no "hard" starts. Never hard enough to stop the bike. Just a hard cutoff like I hit the kill switch, and a restart before I have time to realise what happened and pull the clutch. Really, if it would die and stay dead just once would probably be a blessing, even though I would be late to work!

[OutKast]

gonna try to dig into the circuit that passes thru the L/B-L/Y switch terminal. can anyone tell me how to test the diode in the kickstand switch?

[LilBeaver]

gonna try to dig into the circuit that passes thru the L/B-L/Y switch terminal. can anyone tell me how to test the diode in the kickstand switch?

 

Testing diodes can actually be rather straight forward in these applications, I will have to take a look at the wiring diagram to tell you for sure which combination should yield which but you pretty much have very low resistance one way and high resistance the other way. Some meters have a 'diode' setting -- you are nominally testing continuity.

[LilBeaver]

I had another hard start this morning after being run for ~10 minutes. I stopped off to pick up an invoice from a shop that did some work for me, hopped back on with some of the shop guys admiring the bike and then I got to sit there and be embarassed while it just cranked and cranked. :-\ *shakes fist*

 

Anyone want to buy an 01 RSV????? :doh: :bang head:

[rougeray]

What is the purpose off this switch? I have had my 07 RSV on it'side a time or two and had to kill the engine manually. This happened when the bike got away from me due to passenger loading, or engine died with handle bars in a locked position.

[LilBeaver]

What is the purpose off this switch? I have had my 07 RSV on it'side a time or two and had to kill the engine manually. This happened when the bike got away from me due to passenger loading, or engine died with handle bars in a locked position.

 

This switch cuts off the ignition in the event that it is tipped beyond a certain point. If all you ever did was end up on the crash bars then it probably was not enough to trigger. For some reason 54 degrees sticks in my head as the angle... (But that might be because it is also half of the bond angle of a tetrahedrally coordinated defect center in a zincblende lattice.)

[Guest tx2sturgis]

. (But that might be because it is also half of the bond angle of a tetrahedrally coordinated defect center in a zincblende lattice.)

 

 

Yeah I was thinking the exact same thing.

 

[frankd]

Have you verified that you have a spark problem for certain?? Next time these bikes won't start, take any one of the plug wires off and plug a spare spark plug in. Ground the base of the plug, crank it, and see if you do or do not have spark.

 

Frank D.

[muffinman]

Lilbeaver,Outcast

I remember back a few years ago on the way home from Maint day we had a 2nd gen die in the rain and would not restart we traced it down to the multi pin relay under the battery box.Everything goes through this relay (kick stand,kill switch,ect).look at this relay and bypass the kickstand switch (as a test).I bypassed the one on my 86 3 years ago no issues just remember to put the stand up before you go anywhere:rotf: I have read through the entire thread and I would suspect the kickstand switch but it could be the relay I mentioned I dont remember what its called.

you can call me if you need to for more ideas 9196735095

Jeff

[LilBeaver]

Yeah I was thinking the exact same thing.

 

 

Phew! That is a relief; I was beginning to think I might be weird or something!

 

Have you verified that you have a spark problem for certain?? Next time these bikes won't start, take any one of the plug wires off and plug a spare spark plug in. Ground the base of the plug, crank it, and see if you do or do not have spark.

 

Frank D.

 

Frank:

I cannot speak for OutKast, but I have done the best that I can to verify that I do have spark under these conditions. After replacing the ignition module, I do see consistent spark.

 

Lilbeaver,Outcast

I remember back a few years ago on the way home from Maint day we had a 2nd gen die in the rain and would not restart we traced it down to the multi pin relay under the battery box.Everything goes through this relay (kick stand,kill switch,ect).look at this relay and bypass the kickstand switch (as a test).I bypassed the one on my 86 3 years ago no issues just remember to put the stand up before you go anywhere:rotf: I have read through the entire thread and I would suspect the kickstand switch but it could be the relay I mentioned I dont remember what its called.

you can call me if you need to for more ideas [...]

Jeff

 

Thanks Jeff - I will take another look at it, specifically for the relay. I have cleaned and inspected the switch but I may have overlooked the relay. I have been meaning to bypass that pos anyways since my neutral light is intermittent when my bike gets warm - it would be nice to be able to drop the sidestand and not have the bike shut off sometimes.

[frankd]

Lil Beaver,

 

If you know you have spark and it won't start, that narrow it down. Does the bike sound normal when you are cranking?? If so, you have normal compression, and that's good. If you don't have normal compression, it'll crank real fast. That leaves fuel. I've haven't worked very much on a 2nd gen, but if you can get to the carb air inlet without much problem, you could drip a small amount of fuel into the carbs and see if it starts, or at least fires. Before you dismiss this, 2nd Gens. have had a bit of a problem with intermittant fuel pumps.

 

If that doesn't get you anywhere, I think the next thing to do is to verify that the spark is occuring at the right time......Connect a timing light to #1 cylinder and direct it at the timing mark on the left side of the engine. On a 1st. Gen, you take the chrome plug (approx 1" diameter) out on the left side of the crankshaft and from there you can see the timing marks.

 

Frank

[OutKast]

Lil Beaver,

 

If you know you have spark and it won't start, that narrow it down. Does the bike sound normal when you are cranking?? If so, you have normal compression, and that's good. If you don't have normal compression, it'll crank real fast. That leaves fuel. I've haven't worked very much on a 2nd gen, but if you can get to the carb air inlet without much problem, you could drip a small amount of fuel into the carbs and see if it starts, or at least fires. Before you dismiss this, 2nd Gens. have had a bit of a problem with intermittant fuel pumps.

 

If that doesn't get you anywhere, I think the next thing to do is to verify that the spark is occuring at the right time......Connect a timing light to #1 cylinder and direct it at the timing mark on the left side of the engine. On a 1st. Gen, you take the chrome plug (approx 1" diameter) out on the left side of the crankshaft and from there you can see the timing marks.

 

Frank

 

Frank - mine has never stayed dead long enough to check spark. usually waiting a few minutes fixes it. But during a "no start" it smells strongly of wet fuel. When it shuts off while driving, it is a "hard" cutoff like hitting the kill switch, not a "sputtering" cutoff like running out of fuel.

Edited August 31, 2012 by OutKast
bad spelling

[OutKast]

Lilbeaver,Outcast

 

 

I remember back a few years ago on the way home from Maint day we had a 2nd gen die in the rain and would not restart we traced it down to the multi pin relay under the battery box.Everything goes through this relay (kick stand,kill switch,ect).look at this relay and bypass the kickstand switch (as a test).I bypassed the one on my 86 3 years ago no issues just remember to put the stand up before you go anywhere:rotf: I have read through the entire thread and I would suspect the kickstand switch but it could be the relay I mentioned I dont remember what its called.

you can call me if you need to for more ideas 9196735095

 

Jeff

 

Jeff - did his not crank, or crank normally and not start? I think this is the "starter circuit cutoff relay" that keeps the starter from turning if there is an error (kickstand down and no nuetral light, kill switch activated, etc.) If this relay is active, a light on each side of the dash light up when the starter button is pushed, and starter will not turn. Mine cranks normally with no lights, just no start! But you could be right, 3 or 4 wires from the ignitor box end up here, one thru a contact on the ignition switch, one thru the sidestand switch and clutch handle switch, one activates the carb heater relay and passes thru the nuetral switch, and one to the fuel pump relay ( I assume the fuel pump only runs 3 seconds when you turn the key on, then needs a signal from ignition box that it is running). My electrical engineering is limited, but I do troubleshoot heating and cooling systems. But dang if I understand how you can wire to both sides of a relay with the same wire just because there is a diode in between the posts?

[frankd]

Outkast,

 

Seeing that your bike will crank, you know there is power to the R/W wire to the TCI. I don't remember which of you tried a new TCI, but if you haven't that's next. Then I'd either ground the black/white wire that goes to the fallover switch, or if you'd rather connect an external switch with the other side tied to ground to it--then when it won't start or goes dead, turn ON the external switch. I suppose you could also have an intermittent pick up coil. To test this, you'd have to measure it when the bike won't start.

 

Another possibility -----I looked at the 2nd gen print, and it appears that the oil level light comes on when you're cranking the bike over. Does it? If so, next time it won't start, look at it and see if it's coming on. This will verify that your kill switch is making and your coils have 12 volts applied.

 

Frank D.

[LilBeaver]

Outkast,

 

[...]

 

Another possibility -----I looked at the 2nd gen print, and it appears that the oil level light comes on when you're cranking the bike over. Does it? If so, next time it won't start, look at it and see if it's coming on. This will verify that your kill switch is making and your coils have 12 volts applied.

 

Frank D.

 

My bike cranks just like normal -- all of the lights turn on like they are supposed to, it just does not start. It cranks at the normal speed, sounds normal, normal indicator lights, etc etc. it just cranks/turns over but does not start.

If the tip over switch is tripped/triggered, the check engine light flashes a code. The ONLY times that I have ever seen mine flash that code is when I have manually caused the tip over switch to be tripped.

 

Both of us have replaced our TCI modules.

 

Thanks for the input!

[LilBeaver]

Jeff - did his not crank, or crank normally and not start? I think this is the "starter circuit cutoff relay" that keeps the starter from turning if there is an error (kickstand down and no nuetral light, kill switch activated, etc.) If this relay is active, a light on each side of the dash light up when the starter button is pushed, and starter will not turn. Mine cranks normally with no lights, just no start! But you could be right, 3 or 4 wires from the ignitor box end up here, one thru a contact on the ignition switch, one thru the sidestand switch and clutch handle switch, one activates the carb heater relay and passes thru the nuetral switch, and one to the fuel pump relay ( I assume the fuel pump only runs 3 seconds when you turn the key on, then needs a signal from ignition box that it is running). My electrical engineering is limited, but I do troubleshoot heating and cooling systems. But dang if I understand how you can wire to both sides of a relay with the same wire just because there is a diode in between the posts?

 

I am not sure if there is a difference between the RSV and the older ventures with respect to this circuitry but on our RSVs, if the sidestand switch is triggered there will be no cranking.

 

I am no electrical engineer either [but I am a Physicist]. All Jeff is suggesting is that we bypass the safety switches - by tying the two sets of wires together and providing continuity the bike's system receives the same signal as if the side-stand switch is in the 'up' position.

 

I too am unclear on how this relay failing could produce a 'crank but no start' condition.

[OutKast]

I too am unclear on how this relay failing could produce a 'crank but no start' condition.

 

Well this relay "assembly" is full of diodes. My limited understanding is the diode operates as a "check valve". Sorry if anybody thought I was challenging Jeff - I appreciated his comment and I am concentrating on the assembly after his comment. Just wish I REALLY understood how the dang thing works with all the diodes. My point was the circuitry is not as simple as I first thought. Yes, the kickstand "down" feeds this "assembly" and kills the starter function. But if the kickstand drops with engine running, it kills the ignitor. But why is there a diode here? does it ground out the ignitor? Or does it kill a circuit to the "assembly" which then kills power to the ignitor. That is my confusion with multiple circuits between the ignitor and the "assembly". I dont understand what would happen if a diode was failing in the "assembly".

 

We already have figured out the tilt switch has a resistor allowing a "tracer" signal which prevents simply bypassing it without instaling a resistor in the same range.

 

I REALLY APPRECIATE EVERYONE'S COMMENTS. I AM REALLY FRUSTRATED WITH THIS, AND STRETCHED TO BUY THE NEW IGNITOR, TO NO AVAIL. I am hoping someone can explain why it might something, or maybe know how to test. I know sooner or later it is going to fail, and i have 2 trips planned this month. Please Lord, give us some insight!!

 

thanks EVERYONE

[LilBeaver]

Well this relay "assembly" is full of diodes. My limited understanding is the diode operates as a "check valve". Sorry if anybody thought I was challenging Jeff - I appreciated his comment and I am concentrating on the assembly after his comment. Just wish I REALLY understood how the dang thing works with all the diodes. My point was the circuitry is not as simple as I first thought. Yes, the kickstand "down" feeds this "assembly" and kills the starter function. But if the kickstand drops with engine running, it kills the ignitor. But why is there a diode here? does it ground out the ignitor? Or does it kill a circuit to the "assembly" which then kills power to the ignitor. That is my confusion with multiple circuits between the ignitor and the "assembly". I dont understand what would happen if a diode was failing in the "assembly".

 

We already have figured out the tilt switch has a resistor allowing a "tracer" signal which prevents simply bypassing it without instaling a resistor in the same range.

 

I REALLY APPRECIATE EVERYONE'S COMMENTS. I AM REALLY FRUSTRATED WITH THIS, AND STRETCHED TO BUY THE NEW IGNITOR, TO NO AVAIL. I am hoping someone can explain why it might something, or maybe know how to test. I know sooner or later it is going to fail, and i have 2 trips planned this month. Please Lord, give us some insight!!

 

thanks EVERYONE

 

When I get home from work later, I will take another look at the electrical diagrams we have to see what I can extract from the diagram and then give you a write up of my analysis. I have not had a chance to look at that particular relay very carefully but will defiantly do that soon.

 

I too am frustrated beyond belief with this. I don't know about you, but I know for sure my ignition unit was having some problems as my bike ran much much better after replacing it - so for me that was definitely a good thing to do.

 

The only things left are fuel pump and the battery (my load test on the battery came out just fine). I am in the process of trying to find a fuel pump now. I know that there are some aftermarket ones out there but I cannot find the right kind of Mr Gasket pump (the fixed output on the newer makes it unusable now). I know that Facet has one, just need to find a supplier that has one in stock or bite the bullet and get an OEM one.

 

After an exchange with Seaking about his his issue a few years back, I am thinking that revisiting the fuel pump is probably the ticket here. But maybe this relay that Jeff mentioned has something to do with it too.

 

[LilBeaver]

Well this relay "assembly" is full of diodes. My limited understanding is the diode operates as a "check valve". [...]

 

Qualitatively, this is a perfectly valid way to think about a diode. The simplest form of an [ideal] diode, allows current to pass in one direction, but not the other.

[muffinman]

To answer the question it just cranked and cranked I think that we checked and found no spark I cant remember if any lights were on or not sorry was a few years ago.On another note when the kickstand on the 86 shorted out it killed the motor and refired as soon as I came to a stop I did away with it for good so never had that problem again.

Before you go get a new fuel pump spend a few dollars and get a guage,T,and hose and hook a fuel guage in so you can eliminate the pump I would not even suspect the pump of doing what yall describe because it would try to die as it ran lean before shutting down (totally different symptoms) to start with.

remember its most often the stupid simple things that stump the best mechanics so try not to over think the problem and eliminate things one at a time.

You guys can call me if you need to at 9196735095 my phone is on between 8 am and 9 pm EST

Jeff

Jeff