Engine dies when shifting, cranks for long time before starting

[RedRider]

Had a similar problem hit my bike a couple of years ago. Under the tank, in the left wireway, there is a pink (or red) connector with two conductors. This goes from somewhere back at the battery box to the ignition switch. From looking at the repair manual wiring diagram, it appears the conductors are Red and Br/L (whatever L stands for). In the diagram, it is shown in the dotted box around the ignition switch.

 

This connector had basically melted and was making intermittent connection. It finally failed in downtown Chicago at a gas station (not a good place to be).

 

Easy to find once you pull your tank. Replaced it with a couple of spade terminals and it has ran fine for 30 or 40k miles since.

 

Hope that is all this is. It is cheap and easy to fix once identified.

 

RR

[LilBeaver]

Had a similar problem hit my bike a couple of years ago. Under the tank, in the left wireway, there is a pink (or red) connector with two conductors. This goes from somewhere back at the battery box to the ignition switch. From looking at the repair manual wiring diagram, it appears the conductors are Red and Br/L (whatever L stands for). In the diagram, it is shown in the dotted box around the ignition switch.

 

This connector had basically melted and was making intermittent connection. It finally failed in downtown Chicago at a gas station (not a good place to be).

 

Easy to find once you pull your tank. Replaced it with a couple of spade terminals and it has ran fine for 30 or 40k miles since.

 

Hope that is all this is. It is cheap and easy to fix once identified.

 

RR

 

RR:

 

Thanks a lot, this is on my list of items to inspect when I get the time... Hopefully that will happen soon as I have already postponed my trip becasue of this [and that other 'w' word]...

[Guest tx2sturgis]

Just found this thread after having had a conversation on the phone.

 

Sounds like an issue with the neutral indicator/safety cutout. You said the bike instantly dies during a shift from 1 to 2 or 2 to 1. This tells me to focus on that particular circuit. If a sensor or connector was getting loose or corroded or some other problem, it could cause both hard starting AND engine cutout during a ride.

 

There may some oily/dirty buildup or residue on or in a connector or switch such as the sidestand switch or the associated connectors.

 

There is also a switch in the clutch lever housing that detects clutch engagement, and together with an errant signal from the sidestand, could be triggering an engine shutdown.

 

Just my .

 

 

[LilBeaver]

My hesitation in assigning it to the side-stand/neutral 'safety' circuit is that when the bike cranks but does not start, it actually does CRANK. If you try to start your bike with the side-stand down it simply will NOT crank at all - ie the starter does not engage.

 

I do realize that these issues may very well be unrelated and I have inspected and cleaned them anyways.

 

--

 

For what it is worth, I have done the following:

- Checked ignition switch wiring under the fuel tank for signs of burnt connectors: Checked out fine

- Fuel pump operation: Verified (Hard start condition duplicated after fuel pump cycled as it should).

- Inspected/cleaned/Tightened electrical connectors on regulator/rectifier unit: no issues there

- Tested battery: Good condition

- Checked/tightened ALL of the grounds (none were noticeable loose, corroded/dirty, etc)

- Inspected ignition and have replacement: Inconclusive

- Started inspection of tilt/angle 'emergency stop' switch - resistance measurement 61 kOhms(!!!!!) Service manual claims 0 resistance when operating normally and infinite (as well as check engine light triggered) when tripped. When switch UNPLUGGED, check engine light flashes, bike cranks but will NOT start. When switch bypassed via a 300ohm resistor, behaves as if not plugged in. When Plugged in, bike starts right up (I see this as being inconclusive as of right now)

 

Currently working on how to get the friggen tilt sensor OUT of its current location so that I can disassemble and thoroughly inspect it for proper operation. (ie see http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?threadid=68935 )

 

Since it is Saturday night now, I will wait to order a new switch until at least tomorrow (since it won't go out until Monday anyways), before which I hope to be able to get this current one off to inspect it.

 

I can think of at least two pretty good reasons to get this figured out and back together by Thursday afternoon...

[bkuhr]

- - Started inspection of tilt/angle 'emergency stop' switch - resistance measurement 61 kOhms(!!!!!) Service manual claims 0 resistance when operating normally and infinite (as well as check engine light triggered) when tripped. When switch UNPLUGGED, check engine light flashes, bike cranks but will NOT start. When switch bypassed via a 300ohm resistor, behaves as if not plugged in. When Plugged in, bike starts right up (I see this as being inconclusive as of right now)

 

Just have to ask due to problems had identifying item and weird readings.

 

Is this a 2 wire, black/white and black, sensors as wiring diagram indicates?

 

Did you possibly measure 61K "toward the bike"?

 

Print indicates a simple switch, 0ohm & ~ohm, as well as service manual discription.

 

Looking at wiring diagram, the 'start circuit cut-off relay assembly', includes the fuel pump relay. Also many diodes, one of which could be breaking down.

 

Suggest rig a test light that you can monitor(up high) at the fuel pump that will be on when pump on. If light is off when bike fails, you know pump failed and where to start looking, vice versa, if bike fails but pump never did, this rules out a bunch.

[LilBeaver]

[...]

 

Is this a 2 wire, black/white and black, sensors as wiring diagram indicates?

Yes, it is a 2 wire setup.

Did you possibly measure 61K "toward the bike"?

 

Good thought and this was the FIRST thing I checked when I got that first reading and it is, in fact, through the sensor, in which that particular reading comes.

Print indicates a simple switch, 0ohm & ~ohm, as well as service manual discription.

Enter my confusion

Looking at wiring diagram, the 'start circuit cut-off relay assembly', includes the fuel pump relay. Also many diodes, one of which could be breaking down.

 

Suggest rig a test light that you can monitor(up high) at the fuel pump that will be on when pump on. If light is off when bike fails, you know pump failed and where to start looking, vice versa, if bike fails but pump never did, this rules out a bunch.

 

Good thought. I am quite certain that the fuel pump is not the culpret, at least for the hard starting issues because twice now I have had the hard starting situation and the fuel pump did its clicking thing, as it should, and the bike still did not start.

 

I am STILL going to come up with some type of setup that will allow me to track the fuel pump and ignition circuits (separately) in order to continue to troubleshoot this garbage.

 

Thanks for the ideas.

[Guest tx2sturgis]

I think you can rule out the fuel pump. If the pump fails to operate after turning on the ignition, the bike will start normally, and idle for several minutes, and it can actually be ridden for no more than a mile or so, depending on your use of the throttle, but it will then sputter and loose power and finally die, and will not restart.

 

If the pump fails while riding, the bike will act the same way it does when you run out of gas on the main tank: the engine will sputter and loose power in a definable, predictable way. The loss of power is more sudden at highway speeds, but at very low speeds it can be ridden for a short distance to the side of the road. Again, the bike will not restart until fuel flow is restored.

 

And yeah, two VERY PRETTY reasons to get that thing running!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2012 by tx2sturgis

[LilBeaver]

Well I spent the better part of yesterday going through things (helping a certain friend of mine clean the carbs on her bike) and getting my bike back together.

 

Ongoing checklist:

- Ignition switch wiring under the fuel tank for signs of burnt connectors: Checked out fine

- Fuel pump operation: Verified (Hard start condition duplicated after fuel pump cycled; fuel pumps from out tube into glass jar at reasonable rate).

- Regulator/Rectifier unit: Inspected/cleaned/Tightened electrical connectors no visible issues

- Tested battery and charging system: Good condition

- Grounds: None were noticeable loose, corroded/dirty, etc ie Good

- Tilt/angle 'emergency stop' switch: Investigation Partially inconclusive; preliminary assignment is 'okay' condition

- Ignition module: Inconclusive, but preliminarily looking good Replaced with known good unit - Bike fired right up, no hesitation at all. Only been through a few cycles thus far but so far so good.

[Guest tx2sturgis]

Is she riding with us? Oh good....so if'n your bike is not ready for the prom, I still have a date!

 

[LilBeaver]

Is she riding with us? Oh good....so if'n your bike is not ready for the prom, I still have a date!

 

 

I hadn't considered riding pillion with you, but thanks for the offer!

[LilBeaver]

Well, after going through all of the electrical connections and grounds (including tightening the pins on the regulator/rectifier unit) and replacing the ignition unit my bike seems to be running great! I have put on about 500 miles since replacing the unit and several starts/stops therein and not so much as a hiccup. So, my preliminary conclusion is that something happened to my ignition unit. I did have some problems with my regulator/rectifier unit about 2 years ago and I wonder if something happened to it back then and it just took a while for these symptoms to manifest. Upon closer inspection of my old ignition unit, it does appear to show some signs of water damage on the backside but I have not opened it up yet to give a detailed inspection as I am not sure if I can open it and close it back up without completely scrapping it (although since it is likely the culprit, I will probably be scrapping it anyways).

Thanks for the ideas folks!

 

Well I spent the better part of yesterday going through things (helping a certain friend of mine clean the carbs on her bike) and getting my bike back together.

 

Ongoing checklist:

- Ignition switch wiring under the fuel tank for signs of burnt connectors: Checked out fine

- Fuel pump operation: Verified (Hard start condition duplicated after fuel pump cycled; fuel pumps from out tube into glass jar at reasonable rate).

- Regulator/Rectifier unit: Inspected/cleaned/Tightened electrical connectors no visible issues

- Tested battery and charging system: Good condition

- Grounds: None were noticeable loose, corroded/dirty, etc ie Good

- Tilt/angle 'emergency stop' switch: Investigation Partially inconclusive; preliminary assignment is 'okay' condition

- Ignition module: Inconclusive, but preliminarily looking good Replaced with known good unit - Bike fired right up, no hesitation at all. Only been through a few cycles thus far but so far so good.

[OutKast]

Hey LilBeaver, any more symptoms? My bike is exactly the same. Inconsistent long cranking. I thought maybe one of the clutch or neutral safety switches, but those only interrupt the starter, not the ignition, and the neutral light is lit when it happens. I thought the kickstand would explain the cutoff on hard first gear acceleration or during the one-two shift as it will cut ignition, but that doesn't explain the long start. The other day turning the switch and back on it started right up, so checked into the switch. No burnt connector. The switch circuit interupts ALL power, except the radio powered thru the accessory terminal.

 

So, was the module the cure?

[hi 05 silver]

could be your RSV is talking to you ... saying "trade me in for a Wing..."

I would quit riding, before i would trade my venture in for a wing!

[OutKast]

I am posting a copy of LilBeaver email response to me to keep the thread current.

 

"Well, I thought the new ignition module was conclusive but I am not so sure anymore. I was good for a few weeks (and several thousand miles, two and a half weeks ago I rode from my home in Texas to visit some family in Illinois (Chicago area) and then over to the Detroit area. Am currently in Michigan. I was symptom free until a few days ago when I went to start my bike and it just cranked, cranked and crank but no go until I turned the key off, pushed it back into the garage then tried one more time and BAM, it fired right up. I did shut it down and wire brush the battery terminals for good measure. Since then, I have had two or three of these long cranking issues some from cold start and one right after fueling after riding for ~150 miles or so.

 

I noticed that my bike ran A LOT better with the new ignition module BUT I also noticed that one of the three wire harnesses that plug into the ignition module came off QUITE easily, which led me to believe that maybe it was not making good contact from the get go. I tightened up the female end of the harness and reassembled (with the new ignition, since I already had it and was trying to rule out the tip over sensor) as well as going through, inspecting, cleaning then reassembling every single electrical connection I could get my little paws on (which, to my knowledge was ALL of them). After my bike seemed to be running better (with the new ignition module) I did replace the spark plugs.

 

Also, I did see what appeared to be lots of pitting and evidence of what looked like water damage on my old ignition module. I had some electrical woes a while back with my rectifier/regulator unit and suspect that jacked up my ignition a long time ago HOWEVER, since YOU are experiencing the same symptoms, then maybe it I have not actually found the source to the problem.

 

That being said, after replacing the ignition unit and going through all of the connectors and such, I have NOT had the bike just 'cut out' on me but have had a few instances of the hard starting (which I believe may be related to condensation/contamination in the fuel or possibly a loose connection on the ignition box itself).

 

My recommendations are the following (in no particular order):

- Drain/inspect the fuel in each of the float bowls (especially right then the hard start happens - then let bowls fill with the 'fresh' fuel from the tank and see if it fires right up

- Clean and inspect the grounds on the bike

- Clean, inspect and tighten the regulator/rectifier connection (in front of the fuel filter)

- Clean, inspect and tighten the 3 connectors that go into the main ignition module (in front of the battery box)

- Clean and inspect connections to battery terminals (which in order to get to the ignition unit itself, one needs to remove the battery and battery box anyway so that is easy enough to do when the battery is out of the bike)

I am still slightly suspicious of the tilt-sensor as if this were to malfunction it would EASILY explain both the hard start and intermittent (and seemingly random) cut-out symptoms. If it weren't such a pain to get to (aka if I could figure out how to get the dumb thing OFF and BACK ON) I would have removed, dissembled, inspected, cleaned, reassembled/replaced the dam thing a long time ago. For the 20 or 30 bucks from pinwall, I am still tempted to do just that. Problem still residing in the whole figuring out how to actually replace the dam thing.

 

Sorry that this is really scattered, I wanted to get back to you as soon as I could and have had a really long day.

 

Please feel free to follow up with any questions or findings that you have as I would sure like to get this problem figured out soon!

 

I will be on the road again sometime between Monday and Wednesday and then home sometime between Wednesday and Friday (depending on when I leave, how I feel, etc etc) so if I am a little slow to respond, please be patient, I will get back to you"

[steamer]

OK, lets go in a different direction for a minute. Have you ever had your valve clearances check? I have been told by a couple yamaha mac's that a symtom of tight valves is hard starting.

[OutKast]

OK, lets go in a different direction for a minute. Have you ever had your valve clearances check? I have been told by a couple yamaha mac's that a symtom of tight valves is hard starting.

 

Most of the time, it starts immediately. That would not explain the hard shutoff that happens only occasionaly and only in the first few blocks of driving.

[OutKast]

LilBeaver's quote

"Started inspection of tilt/angle 'emergency stop' switch - resistance measurement 61 kOhms(!!!!!) Service manual claims 0 resistance when operating normally and infinite (as well as check engine light triggered) when tripped. When switch UNPLUGGED, check engine light flashes, bike cranks but will NOT start. When switch bypassed via a 300ohm resistor, behaves as if not plugged in. When Plugged in, bike starts right up (I see this as being inconclusive as of right now)"

 

Mine also measures 61 kOhms at the harness connector just outside the frame neck

[LilBeaver]

OK, lets go in a different direction for a minute. Have you ever had your valve clearances check? I have been told by a couple yamaha mac's that a symtom of tight valves is hard starting.

 

For what it is worth, I did do mine (well, I helped goose do mine - learned a ton while we were at it too!) within the last 20,000 miles. This behavior started 'recent' as of the first post of this thread. BUT, as OutKast described...

 

Most of the time, it starts immediately. That would not explain the hard shutoff that happens only occasionaly and only in the first few blocks of driving.

 

 

LilBeaver's quote

"Started inspection of tilt/angle 'emergency stop' switch - resistance measurement 61 kOhms(!!!!!) Service manual claims 0 resistance when operating normally and infinite (as well as check engine light triggered) when tripped. When switch UNPLUGGED, check engine light flashes, bike cranks but will NOT start. When switch bypassed via a 300ohm resistor, behaves as if not plugged in. When Plugged in, bike starts right up (I see this as being inconclusive as of right now)"

 

Mine also measures 61 kOhms at the harness connector just outside the frame neck

Good to know. Now if we can just coerce someone with a 'healthy' bike to do that measurement for us...

[OutKast]

Good to know. Now if we can just coerce someone with a 'healthy' bike to do that measurement for us...

 

Well I do have access to a healthy 1st gen, if I knew it was the same. My theory is the 61kohms is necessary to ensure the switch is in place so it does not activate the check engine light and lock out the ignition (crank but no start). Shorting across the ignitor side of harness connector ("tripping the switch") results in check engine light and no CRANK. Summary of what we know about switch:

 

0 ohms - crank but no fire (simulated by switch unplugged)

61 kOhms - normal operation

300 kOhms - Crank but no fire (simulated with resistor)

Short - no crank (similated by shorting ignitor side of harness, solid black wire is continuos to ground)

 

I have rerouted the harness connector in front of the tank mount and removed the right side neck cover so I can access and check the resistance when it occurs. I have not actually been able to put my hands on the switch itself.

 

EDIT hhmm.... whenever we simulate a fail, we get check engine light. never get a light during a failure!!!!!

Edited June 30, 2012 by OutKast

[LilBeaver]

Well I do have access to a healthy 1st gen, if I knew it was the same. My theory is the 61kohms is necessary to ensure the switch is in place so it does not activate the check engine light and lock out the ignition (crank but no start). Shorting across the ignitor side of harness connector ("tripping the switch") results in check engine light and no CRANK. Summary of what we know about switch:

 

0 ohms - crank but no fire (simulated by switch unplugged)

61 kOhms - normal operation

300 kOhms - Crank but no fire (simulated with resistor)

Short - no crank (similated by shorting ignitor side of harness, solid black wire is continuos to ground)

 

...

 

EDIT hhmm.... whenever we simulate a fail, we get check engine light. never get a light during a failure!!!!!

 

Agreed entirely. I too have NOT been able to reproduce the symptoms WITHOUT triggering the check engine light (tried with various resistors and direct bypass). This is what is strongly suggesting to me that the tip over switch may not be the problem. :-/

[HGWT]

:rotf:I haven't been following this post very close due to other obligations but just looked back to see if it was something other than I deemed it to be (on my post of 03/31/12), and I wast correct. Glad I could help.

[OutKast]

LilBeaver - whats the chance you got two bad ignitors? The other guy gave it you, why did he have it? Do we know why the other one was not on its original bike? Did someone have it laying around because it "might" be ok?

 

Tripping anything seems to trigger some kind of dash light - sidestand, kill switch, lean sensor, etc. But I have never had any kind of light during a failure.

 

Well, maybe I can get enough together to get another ignitor. Mostley out of work though.

[LilBeaver]

LilBeaver - whats the chance you got two bad ignitors? The other guy gave it you, why did he have it? Do we know why the other one was not on its original bike? Did someone have it laying around because it "might" be ok?

 

Tripping anything seems to trigger some kind of dash light - sidestand, kill switch, lean sensor, etc. But I have never had any kind of light during a failure.

 

Well, maybe I can get enough together to get another ignitor. Mostley out of work though.

 

The probability of having two bad ignition modules is calculable based on the number of... Oh, rhetorical question :-P

I chose to go with the one that I did (thanks to a generous member here) because it was the original ignition module off of their bike, that was functioning fine when they removed it and replaced it with a Dyna3000 (or whatever it is) wanting the adjustment capability that came with it (I am pretty sure that was the reason, I seem to have lost the original message). There is obviously no guarantee that it is perfectly good, but with how well my bike ran after I replaced MY original one, I am pretty confident that this one is in better shape than mine was.

 

I too agree that any other failure would cause dash lights or SOME other indicator to come up. Although, that being said, I suppose a battery that is on the way out may exhibit the long cranking behavior but I certainly could not explain the intermittent cut outs.

For what it is worth, I have NOT had the bike randomly CUT OUT after replacing my ignition module.

 

I sure hope we can get to the bottom of this soon. Over the last ~3 weeks, I was on my bike (rode ~4k miles) and half way into my trip the long cranking symptoms started to reappear as stated earlier. It has not done it more than a couple of times and those times WERE correlated to large changes in temperature in rather humid conditions, so it IS possible that moisture/condensation collection in the float bowls could lead to the long cranking symptoms...

[OutKast]

Generosity was not in question, sorry if anyone thought I meant that. Just wanted to make sure it was not something like "I bought the bike, and it was in the trunk"

 

I thought the Dyna only added onto the stock box. But looking over the install in the read-only tech section, it does entirely replace the stock unit. So it makes sense for a guy to have a good stock one laying around for that reason.

 

Maybe $300 will fall out of the sky so I can get a Dyna!

 

Let me know if you find anything else.

[albyzee]

Hey Beav I don't propose to be an expert on this but I just wish to throw out a suggestion. How are your plug wires? Are they in good order? You know don't have a cut in them are clean inside the caps. Just my 2 cents.