LilBeaver Posted March 30, 2012 #1 Posted March 30, 2012 Well folks, I have been having some weird issues with my 2001 RSV and I am not really sure if they are in fact issues or related so here we go... Summary of 'symptoms': 1) Engine cut out (like someone hit the cut off switch; engine died only, no stumbling/starving for fuel, no interruption on the radio) when shifting from first to second and from second to first 2) Engine sometimes cranks for a long time before starting (happens hot or cold) More detailed explanations of each: (1) It was a slightly cooler morning (30s-40s ish) but not any cooler than it had been in prior weeks, and I did what I ALWAYS do before leaving for work. Come out to the garage, load my crap in the trunk, turn the fuel on, start the bike (no choke necessary - my garage stays reasonably warm), back out of the garage, give the bike 10-20 seconds, tweak the throttle to check for proper warm-up time, all is good so I take off. While driving up the road, no more than a few hundred yards from my house (somewhere between 20 and 30 mph) I go to shift into second, as soon as I push the shift lever the motor dies. It was a near instant cut out - ie no starving for fuel, no stumbling, no chugging etc. The first thing I check is the engine cut off switch (sometimes I bump it with my thumb), then the side stand, all is good so I pop the clutch and it starts right back up. I immediately u-turn and roll back home (I live downhill from where I was), pull in the drive way and inspect stuff. I turn the key off and back on to check for the fuel pump noise (which was present and clicking like it should). I checked the side-stand switch, clutch safety switch, etc etc and all seemed fine. Decided to give it another go, bike started right up and I rode to work with no problems. This happed 2-3 weeks ago. I had assumed that I had maybe not let the bike warm up enough, tweaked the throttle while shifting and maybe it cut out. This morning, I rode in (temperature ~70) and stopped at the bank. The bike is plenty warm at this point. Pulling out of the bank, all goes fine until I start to slow down for a stop sign, again a few hundred yards from the bank, go to down shift into first and the engine dies. Just like before, all of the electronics stayed on without interruption (radio played continuously, etc etc) and it was like I had hit the engine shut off switch but I did not. I do not recall hitting any big bumps or whatever either, it was a smooth patch of road. I do not recall this morning if I tapped the starter to restart the bike or just popped the clutch; either way it started right back up and it ran fine the rest of the way back to work. When I left my house, I know for sure the fuel pump did its clickity thing because I heard it. As a result of issue (2) I have been making a point of shutting the petcock off 2-4 miles from my house so that I can verify the pump operational everytime I start my bike. The fact that this engine cut out when shifting has happened twice now has be beginning to think that maybe it is a real issue or at least something to investigate. (2) Issue number two that may or may not be related is the occasional really long cranking time required to start my bike on occasion. I first noticed it last Thursday (8 days ago) I was about 200 miles into a ride and it started to get dark, I pulled over to the shoulder to change out my sunglasses for my clear safety glasses. All was running well until I went to start my bike. I hit the starter button and the bike cranked but did not start right away like it usually does. I cranked it in a few bursts of about 3-5 seconds each then shut off the ignition, turned the petcock to off and let the bike sit for a minute or so (thinking maybe it was flooded). After letting it sit for 1-2 minutes I turned the key back to the on position, hit the starter and it fired right up. Turned the gas back to the ON position then took off. The bike ran fine for the rest of the evening. Friday morning, it was around 40 with rediculously high humidity (70+%) and the dew was really thick. [i was parked at a hotel as I was traveling for work]. I went out loaded up for the day and went to start the bike and it behaved similarly, it took several rounds of cranking before it eventually started (I turned the gas OFF over night and made sure to pull the choke all of the way out and turn the gas ON before trying to start it). After some cranking, similar to the previous day's behavior, it started right up and ran fine for my ride into where I was working that day and then back to the hotel again, that evening. The next day started off the same, weather wise, and the bike started without hesitation in the morning. I left work around noon and stopped by the local motorsickle dealership to paroose a bit before heading back home and when I went to restart my bike (after chatting with someone who was looking at a purdy RSTD adn telling him how reliable these bikes are ) I had a repeat of these symptoms - long cranking time before actually starting). The bike ran fine all ~300 miles back home so . I was careful to not stop on the side of the road and I stopped for fuel every 100 miles just in case it was bad gas or something. Since then this long cranking symptom has been present a few times and it seems to occur at inconsistent intervals (sometimes when the bike is warm and sometimes when it is cold). I drained my float bowles and the first round of fuel that came out looked awfully clear and smelled very weakly of gasoline. I left one of the float drain screws open and flowing into a glass jar while allowing the fuel pump to cycle and it pumped out just fine. After that first round the fuel came out looking like I expect good fuel to look and smell. For kicks, I did mix some fresh fuel with a few OZ of sea foam and pumped it straight into the carbs and let it sit that way overnight, re-drained in the morning then put fresh fuel in the tank and rode for a little bit. Again, driving/riding wise the engine seems to run fine. I have had a couple of these long crank times since I did the carb bowl drain, but it has only been maybe 2 or 3 times since last Saturday (my bike is my primary mode of transportation and it has been started several times within the last week). I feel like this could be a weak, intermittant or failing fuel pump but am not really sure what else it could be. My next course of action will be to change the fuel filter (current one has less than 10k miles on it, but if I did get a bit of bad fuel somewhere, I know it can clog in a hurry) and go ahead and put in new spark plugs (I am approaching 8k miles on the current set of plugs). I checked the header pipes during warm up and after riding for a while (IR thermometer) and all four are within 10 or so degrees of each other. I have been paying extra close attention to the fuel pump 'clickage' [suspecting a weak or intermittent fuel pump] and am strongly considering just replacing the dumb thing so I don't get stranded somewhere... I am at a loss for what else could be causing these symptoms and if these are even related to each other so I am all ears for suggestions of things to check, inspect, pay attention to or whatever. Thanks a lot! As usual, I am coming up to a departure date for a ~1-2 week ~6k mile ride and crap starts going wrong... yea me. :sign09:
darthandy Posted March 30, 2012 #2 Posted March 30, 2012 Well, I'm sure the gurus will be here shortly, but at first glance, it seems more an electrical issue since there is no stumbling or usual sign of fuel starvation. Even if the pump quits, I would think that there would be some stumbling as the float bowls empty out. Sounds almost like a bad ground somewhere or perhaps an ignition switch problem. Have you tried wiggling the key a bit when it's idling? When my switch went, wiggling the key around would kill the engine as the contacts on the switch hit a dead spot. There's also the main connector from the ignition switch which can overheat, melt and short out occasionally prior to completely failing. Other than that, the coils come to mind, but these bikes can run on three cylinders with only a loss in performance and gas mileage to let you know, so that seems less likely. Sorry I can't be more help, but it is a starting point. Andy
LilBeaver Posted March 30, 2012 Author #3 Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) Andy: Thanks for the ideas. I have not tried wiggling the key while idling and have not completely ruled out the electrical issue. I am pretty sure that if it is the ignition switch that if there was some sort of intermittent connection between the 'on' contacts the trip meter would reset in addition to possibly noticing some sort of loss of electrical power. Again though, I agree that the way the motor shut off it sure seems like it could be electrical. I inspect the wiring near the ignition (as per Eck's [i think] findings a few years back: EDIT: http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showpost.php?p=304057&postcount=1 /END EDIT) and have seen no indications of the wires over heating. I have been meaning to disassemble my ignition switch to clean and inspect the contacts but have not take the time to do that yet so maybe that should be a priority soon... Thanks again for the comments/ideas Edited March 30, 2012 by LilBeaver Added link
ffjoe Posted March 30, 2012 #4 Posted March 30, 2012 I agree that it's electrical. Between 1st and 2nd you have neutral. Maybe a short there in the switch. Does it start in neutral, if it does slowly shift up and down to see if it stalls.
SilvrT Posted March 30, 2012 #5 Posted March 30, 2012 Could it be that that sidestand switch is poorly adjusted or the sidestand itself is somehow loose and activating the switch? Bad ground connection in the switch circuit somewhere?
BuddyRich Posted March 30, 2012 #6 Posted March 30, 2012 Sounds like a side stand switch like already mentioned. Its designed to kill the engine if its down and you put it in gear. Now maybe passing thru N your triggering something to make the switch think the side stand has gone down
LilBeaver Posted March 30, 2012 Author #7 Posted March 30, 2012 I agree that it's electrical. Between 1st and 2nd you have neutral. Maybe a short there in the switch. Does it start in neutral, if it does slowly shift up and down to see if it stalls. With respect to the 'cutting out' symptom, the bike starts fine with respect to being in neutral or in gear (with side stand up and clutch in, of course). This 'cut out' has only happened twice; I did try slowly shifting up and down from neutral as well as in and out of the gear to try to duplicate the symptom and have yet to do it. Could it be that that sidestand switch is poorly adjusted or the sidestand itself is somehow loose and activating the switch? Bad ground connection in the switch circuit somewhere? Sounds like a side stand switch like already mentioned. Its designed to kill the engine if its down and you put it in gear. Now maybe passing thru N your triggering something to make the switch think the side stand has gone down I was thinking along these lines too. I checked while driving and found that the side stand has to travel down quite far before actually cutting off the motor, BUT a faulty switch or loose ground on or within the switch could certainly be the culprit. Both places that the bike cut out were very smooth so there would have been limited jostling about when the motor cut out. I plan on taking it a part tonight or tomorrow morning to see if I can find anything conclusive with respect to the side stand switch. If this were the case, that may explain the 'engine cutout' but not the no-start upon long cranking [since with the side stand down and bike in gear, it won't crank at all]. I also plan on disassembling the right handlebar controls to inspect and clean the engine cut out switch; check/inspect, clean and tighten the grounds on the bike and whatever else we can come up with. Thanks
SilvrT Posted March 30, 2012 #8 Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) could be your RSV is talking to you ... saying "trade me in for a Wing..." Edited March 30, 2012 by SilvrT
Freebird Posted March 30, 2012 #9 Posted March 30, 2012 I had a good friend that was experiencing a very similar problem while we were attending a MTA Rally in Harrison, AK a few years ago. His turned out to be the lean angle sensor. Had that replace and no more problems. Although, I'm not sure he had the problem with starting the bike, just it shutting down when riding if I remember correctly.
LilBeaver Posted March 30, 2012 Author #10 Posted March 30, 2012 could be your RSV is talking to you ... saying "trade me in for a Wing..." As you know I have been toying with that idea for quite some time now... Even when I was considering the RSV upon my initial purchase. My local dealer keeps insisting that I take them for test rides... :mo money: I had a good friend that was experiencing a very similar problem while we were attending a MTA Rally in Harrison, AK a few years ago. His turned out to be the lean angle sensor. Had that replace and no more problems. Although, I'm not sure he had the problem with starting the bike, just it shutting down when riding if I remember correctly. Thanks don! I had not considered this at all. From the wiring diagrams, at least the best that I can tell as it is not labeled well at all (service manual page 8-3 has a switch labeled "Emargency stop switch" [spelling accurate as per the service manual] but gives no indication as to what it is or where inside the cowling/motor it is buried... So I guess I'll go on a fishing trip to find that piece of work. Based on the wiring diagram, although it is hard to tell, it looks like it just serves to cut off the igniter if open so this seems like a viable candidate for the long crank with no start as well as the cut-off. Now why it cut off when I shifted and not just 'randomly' while riding or when taking turns or whatever I don't know... Unless it has to do with the lack of smoothness in which I shifted those two times... Looks like fleabay has some used ones [one off of an 09] for ~15, shipped. I'll do some testing tonight and maybe give that a go. Keep the suggestions/ideas coming folks.
HGWT Posted March 31, 2012 #11 Posted March 31, 2012 Igniyion moduel. I had same problem, bought 2 lost 1 founf 1 if you need 1.
allwx Posted March 31, 2012 #12 Posted March 31, 2012 Take a look at the fuel pump. Mine died on me last summer, and the bike acted like yours in the hard starting. It would take several attempts to get it to run, and then it would run poorly for a few minutes before coming to life. It did this for a few weeks before finally not running at all. Apparently the fuel pump may not die completely suddenly, but get intermittent for awhile. I confirmed the pump problem by bypassing it. Sure enough the bike ran perfectly with the pump bypassed. New pump (non-oem) solved the problem.
Yammer Dan Posted March 31, 2012 #13 Posted March 31, 2012 if I'm remembering right just pull that lean angle sensor and clean and its as good as new?? Not sure but I think I did this and it would save trouble and cost of hunting one up.
LilBeaver Posted March 31, 2012 Author #14 Posted March 31, 2012 Unfortunately I have not had time to dive into my bike just yet; some personal matters came up Anyhoot... Igniyion moduel. I had same problem, bought 2 lost 1 founf 1 if you need 1. Good to know I will definitely keep this in mind after checking out a few other things. If I do need one or want to give it a go. Take a look at the fuel pump. Mine died on me last summer, and the bike acted like yours in the hard starting. It would take several attempts to get it to run, and then it would run poorly for a few minutes before coming to life. It did this for a few weeks before finally not running at all. Apparently the fuel pump may not die completely suddenly, but get intermittent for awhile. I confirmed the pump problem by bypassing it. Sure enough the bike ran perfectly with the pump bypassed. New pump (non-oem) solved the problem. Sounds good. I think my next step will be to bypass the fuel pump and ride a little to see if I can notice a difference or not and if so, that will be replaced in no time. I have been meaning to get a spare wired up and setup anyways, so even if it is not the problem, no harm in having a spare handy. Thanks! if I'm remembering right just pull that lean angle sensor and clean and its as good as new?? Not sure but I think I did this and it would save trouble and cost of hunting one up. This was my plan, although ebay has several for 10-15 bucks so I'll probably inspect and clean it first and see if there is a difference (unless I can conclusively test it to see if there is a problem with it or not which based on the service manual will likely not be the case). I might just bypass this all together as well and see what happens. Thanks for the ideas folks, hopefully I will be able to tear into this tonight or tomorrow. Sadly that means my planned ride for tomorrow might be delayed
SilvrT Posted March 31, 2012 #15 Posted March 31, 2012 Sadly that means my planned ride for tomorrow might be delayed Just be thankful you don't live here ... you wouldn't have a planned ride ... unless you really like riding in cold and rain .. At least I started my scoot today, just to pretend I was on a ride LOL
Kirby Posted April 1, 2012 #16 Posted April 1, 2012 Take a look at the fuel pump. Mine died on me last summer, and the bike acted like yours in the hard starting. It would take several attempts to get it to run, and then it would run poorly for a few minutes before coming to life. It did this for a few weeks before finally not running at all. Apparently the fuel pump may not die completely suddenly, but get intermittent for awhile. I confirmed the pump problem by bypassing it. Sure enough the bike ran perfectly with the pump bypassed. New pump (non-oem) solved the problem. :sign yeah that::sign yeah that: Mine would cut off while riding along then start right back up after a few minutes on the side of the road. Bypassed the pump, no more problem. Replaced pump. All good since.
Condor Posted April 1, 2012 #17 Posted April 1, 2012 Rick, What's your battery showing for charge volts. If your stator isn't putting out enough to charge the battery, or the rectifyer is fubar.... and the battery's CC's are low it will cause the motor to die when the RPMs drop. Longer start times will also be becasue of this. Even a weak battery will will cause problems. I'm in the electrical camp....
Black Owl Posted April 1, 2012 #18 Posted April 1, 2012 While I don't often do it, I am inclined to agree with Condor on this one.
Condor Posted April 1, 2012 #19 Posted April 1, 2012 While I don't often do it, I am inclined to agree with Condor on this one. Lizbeth I'm comin'..... http://www.sitcomsonline.com/sanfordandson/Sanford01.jpg
Black Owl Posted April 1, 2012 #20 Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) Lizbeth I'm comin'..... http://www.sitcomsonline.com/sanfordandson/Sanford01.jpg Don't let it go to your head. Even a blind pig can find an acorn once in a while.... :rotfl: Edited April 1, 2012 by Black Owl
LilBeaver Posted April 1, 2012 Author #21 Posted April 1, 2012 Rick, What's your battery showing for charge volts. If your stator isn't putting out enough to charge the battery, or the rectifyer is fubar.... and the battery's CC's are low it will cause the motor to die when the RPMs drop. Longer start times will also be becasue of this. Even a weak battery will will cause problems. I'm in the electrical camp.... Jack: Thanks for the ideas here. I am quite confident my battery is fine and the charging system is putting out the appropriate voltage with no trace of AC. Terminal Voltages measured across battery as follows: Ignition in 'OFF' Position: 12.6V Ignition in 'ON' Position and Bike not running (high beams, passing lamps, radio ON): 12.0V Ignition in 'ON' Position and starter button depressed but bike not running (high beams, passing lamps, radio ON): 11.8V Ignition in 'ON' Position and Bike running (high beams, passing lamps, radio ON): 13.2V (at idle) 13.5 to 13.8 (slightly above idle) ~14.1V (High rev) --- Unfortunately I have not been able to spend a whole lot of time on my bike today since a friend of mine's car broke down, I have been under the hood of that most of the day. My plan of attack will be: 1) Verify electrical connections (grounds, etc) 2) find, inspect, check and clean bank sensor 3) Investigate fuel pump - bypass and ride, etc etc 4) if necessary Thanks for the input folks. I may have further time tonight but depending on how my friend's car goes, I may not. I will update as I come along. If additional ideas come up, don't hesitate to share! Thanks.
bkuhr Posted April 1, 2012 #22 Posted April 1, 2012 Intermittent is the worst!- but doable, may have to think outside the box! First and foremost suggestion is disassemble/clean/reassembly tightly, battery wiring connections, and frame ground connections. Connections that look and feel tight can have corrosion that causes connection problems. Second, if issue popped up again-which it may not: I think I would rig up a test light to monitor both safety cutoff at TCI (power to light, ground from safety circuit-turns on if safely circuit activated), and main power to TCI (ground to light, power from TCI-always on unless power failure). Both would tap into wires near TCI. 12v leds would work great, but would need to be mounted high in vision to notice sudden problem that corrects itself. Should at least rule out electrical, if failure continues with no change, and if lights did change should indicate electrical system to work on. Not tested with this 2 light rig, is ground failure at the TCI-coils. but ground should be able to be tested static ohm test from battery-frame-ground wires of TCI/coils.
dacheedah Posted April 2, 2012 #23 Posted April 2, 2012 Blind Pigs eat Acorn's??? I learn something every day
Condor Posted April 2, 2012 #24 Posted April 2, 2012 Blind Pigs eat Acorn's??? I learn something every day Pigs fly..... Squirrels find acorns.....
LilBeaver Posted April 5, 2012 Author #25 Posted April 5, 2012 Igniyion moduel. I had same problem, bought 2 lost 1 founf 1 if you need 1. PM "Not alowed" E-mail sent.
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