Stator problem? Maybe?

[Dave77459]

Checking some old threads, it seems my stator might be an issue. Here's the situation.

 

Squidley removed the switch from the passing lamp circuit while he was caretaking Roxie. The dealer had put in a rinky dink switch that frequently popped fuses. Going through a relay but then straight to the battery, the passing lamps are MUCH brighter. Our theory is that the switch was throttling power, so now the lamps are getting as much power as they want.

 

The side effect is that now I have charging issues. It seems the energy output of the engine is just barely enough to power the bike.

 

I put on 1200 miles last weekend, a quarter of it in the rain. It was 31-45F, so I had the Gerbings jacket liner out. With that background:

 

 

• Every time, not just this past weekend, 15 seconds after start, the Kuryakyn battery gauge will show green--as long as it is in neutral
  
• put it in gear, and it drops to yellow, even if you pull in the clutch
  
• after a while, if you lope along (60mph in 4th), it will get back to green
  
• run at high speed (72 in 4th), it drops to yellow
  

With the Gerbings on,

 

• generally, the battery gauge will blink in neutral when the controller is heating the elements
  
• at one point last weekend, traveling 78mph in 5th, the green light came on after an hour. Not only that, but it eventually got to two green lights. I didn't even know there were two green lights! I've only seen one. The jacket liner was ON, but on low.
  
• I downshifted to 4th to take an exit, and I lost the green. I never saw the two greens again.
  

On the ride to MO, it was cold and raining. I kept my eye on the battery gauge because if it ever got to one yellow (there are two), I would have pulled the fuse on the passing lamps (no switch any longer). But it never did, even with the Gerbings on med-high. When the rain stopped, the green light came on as I loped through small towns.

 

 

The same was true on the ride back. It was 31F when I left, so I had the Gerbings on high. I could always get green when in idle, and if I wasn't running at high RPMs, I could sometimes glimpse green.

 

 

It really seems as if it is on the verge of getting enough output. I am confused about the difference between being in neutral vs being in gear with the clutch pulled; what extra load is being placed on the engine simply by being out of neutral?

 

 

 

We have the SW Texas Maintenance Day coming up. What things should I check? I replaced the battery, thinking that was it, but that was before this trip.

 

 

Ideas?

 

 

Dave

 

 

http://images.motorcycle-superstore.com/ProductImages/300/2007_Kuryakyn_LED_Battery_Gauge.jpg

[RedRider]

You will find this gauge is just an approximation of the voltage. It gives you a relative value depending on where it is wired. (I have the same meter on mine.)

 

What is happening when you are riding in the cold is:

 

All lights are on.

Electric jacket liner is on.

Carb heaters are on. (this is a big one)

 

You are taxing the current capacity of the anemic stator when this combination is on.

 

As long as you don't see the gauge drop over time, you are fine. However, you are close to pulling more juice than the stator is capable of producing. There are a couple of things you can do.

 

Change your headlight to HID.

Change your driving lights to HID.

Add a switch for your driving lights to turn them off when riding in the cold.

Upgrade to a high output stator.

Change all the incandescent bulbs to LED (running lights, brake lights, etc. - turn signals don't help since you need to add resistors to the circuit for them to work properly).

 

Other than that, your bike is working like it is supposed to.

 

You will need to be careful when you add heated gloves.

 

I had the same issue when adding all the heated gear. Changed to HID everything and the charging issue went away.

 

Hope this helps.

 

RR

[frankd]

Dave,

 

With the running lights the heated vest and probably the radio on, you are right at the bike's charging system capacity. First thing I would do would be to install a switch for the running lights properly, and then shut them off when you use the heated vest. As for the voltage coming up a little higher at slightly low RPMs, my 83 does that. When it is running about 1500-1600 RPM, the voltage would come slightly above where it normally ran. But then you could speed up just a little bit and see the voltmeter move down slightly when the voltage regulator started to shunt the extra power to ground. The stators on Ventures have a permanent magnet rotor, so they operate at 100% output all of the time. Engine speed is the only thing that varies the stator output. The voltage regulator has 2 jobs. First, it rectifies the 3 phase AC stator output and changes it to DC. Second it shunts (or absorbs) the extra power the bike doesn't need to ground and disapates it as heat. This keeps the voltage from going too high. On my 83 you can see on the voltmeter when the regulator starts shunting to ground because the voltage goes down slightly. On my 89, you can't see this at all.

[MiCarl]

I think RedRider has it nailed. With everything you're running the fact that the battery isn't dieing indicates the charging system is probably A-OK.

 

put it in gear, and it drops to yellow, even if you pull in the clutch

Putting it in gear adds some drag, even with the clutch pulled. Not surprising if the voltage drops a bit.

 

after a while, if you lope along (60mph in 4th), it will get back to green

As the battery charges the voltage will come up.

 

run at high speed (72 in 4th), it drops to yellow

I have seen something similar testing charging systems. Some voltage regulators actually drop the voltage a bit as RPM goes up. I have no idea why they do this, but it appears to be completely normal.

 

My guess is that you're getting green lights when the system voltage is relatively high and everything is probably fine at 2 yellow. Be interesting to put a volt meter at the battery and compare it to the light.

[bkuhr]

Not really an answer, just observation for discussion

 

It seems that your battery gauge, and assuming the battery, acheive a higher voltage when you have higher loads applied.

 

 

Keep in mind that the stator, when above ~2000 rpm, puts out a relative stable ac volts and amps (does not change with load).

 

The regulator monitors the voltage NEAR the battery and adjusts the amount of the total available power the stator puts out to the battery and shunts (shorts) the rest of the stator power to ground. The regulator is factory set to try to maintain the battery at about 14v.

 

The higher the load you have on, the lower the battery volts gets, to start. The regulator see this lower battery voltage and shunt less voltage to ground. During battery recovery it seems the regulator is late in switching back to 'normal' shunt volts to ground, resulting in higher than normal volts to the battery.

 

I think I would suspect an issue with the regulator/rectifier unit, be it the unit itself, or corroded connectors-wiring causing it to sense improper volts levels NEAR the battery. This could also be corroded wiring AT the battery. Could also be during high load, regulator is actually over heating, causing slow/late response. I would ensure cooling fins are clean and in good airflow.

 

I would be conserned about the high output, as IMO it can damage either a wet battery (boiling electrlyte) or a agm battery (breaking down membranes). Might consider carrying spare battery during your trip, even after you repair the above issue.

[Marcarl]

Before I would do anything and make any decisions, I would clean and dielectric grease all the connectors from the stator and rectifier, as well as the ignition connectors and the battery terminals and ground on the engine. Then I would go searching if the problems persisted. You need to start at square one so to speak.

[Dave77459]

Thanks for the replies. I have some things to look at during our MD. Or, properly, I have things for experienced eyes to look at during our MD.

 

I am thinking about switching lighting, but to LEDs rather than HIDs. My RSTD has no place to hide ignitors, etc. The current LEDs are nearly as bright as HID lights, without the extra brick issues. I am considering self-contained HIDs but they are really spendy now.

 

Other ideas are appreciated, but thanks for these so far.

 

Dave

[V7Goose]

Checking some old threads, it seems my stator might be an issue. Here's the situation.

 

Squidley removed the switch from the passing lamp circuit while he was caretaking Roxie. The dealer had put in a rinky dink switch that frequently popped fuses. Going through a relay but then straight to the battery, the passing lamps are MUCH brighter. Our theory is that the switch was throttling power, so now the lamps are getting as much power as they want.

 

The side effect is that now I have charging issues. It seems the energy output of the engine is just barely enough to power the bike.

 

I put on 1200 miles last weekend, a quarter of it in the rain. It was 31-45F, so I had the Gerbings jacket liner out. With that background:

 

 

• Every time, not just this past weekend, 15 seconds after start, the Kuryakyn battery gauge will show green--as long as it is in neutral
  
• put it in gear, and it drops to yellow, even if you pull in the clutch
  
• after a while, if you lope along (60mph in 4th), it will get back to green
  
• run at high speed (72 in 4th), it drops to yellow
  

With the Gerbings on,

 

• generally, the battery gauge will blink in neutral when the controller is heating the elements
  
• at one point last weekend, traveling 78mph in 5th, the green light came on after an hour. Not only that, but it eventually got to two green lights. I didn't even know there were two green lights! I've only seen one. The jacket liner was ON, but on low.
  
• I downshifted to 4th to take an exit, and I lost the green. I never saw the two greens again.
  

On the ride to MO, it was cold and raining. I kept my eye on the battery gauge because if it ever got to one yellow (there are two), I would have pulled the fuse on the passing lamps (no switch any longer). But it never did, even with the Gerbings on med-high. When the rain stopped, the green light came on as I loped through small towns.

 

 

The same was true on the ride back. It was 31F when I left, so I had the Gerbings on high. I could always get green when in idle, and if I wasn't running at high RPMs, I could sometimes glimpse green.

 

 

It really seems as if it is on the verge of getting enough output. I am confused about the difference between being in neutral vs being in gear with the clutch pulled; what extra load is being placed on the engine simply by being out of neutral?

 

Ideas?

 

 

Dave

Dave, you have basically described typical operations when you are at max electrical load on this machine.

 

When the temps are below 60, the difference between in and out of gear is simply the carb heaters (that's 60 watts of extra load). The carb heaters only come on when the bike is in gear. Under most conditions, the carb heaters do not stay on very long - the temp sensor is mounted very close to the rear header, and after the engine is up to temp, the carb heaters will always be off at the outside temperatures that most folks care to ride. However, if the outside temp is in the 30s or low 40s, and especially if there is a cold cross wind, you will find the heaters coming on fairly often. For example, in one 34 degree winter morning ride up in the panhandle, I found the carb heaters would go off after about 20 minutes of riding below 45, but as soon as I got up to highway speeds, they came back on. When I had to slow down in town, they would shut off again fairly quickly. I also found that when I was riding so that the icy cross wind was blowing in from the right front (onto the temp sensor), the carb heaters would stay on even in slow speed riding.

 

I do not know if you are using stock 30W driving lights, but if you have upgraded them, that is a major problem under those conditions if you use heated clothing too. I suggest you put a switch back on those lights. If your are using a properly wired relay, the switch should be in the relay coil circuit. When installed correctly, you only need a small capacity switch, and it is totally impossible for it to ever have an impact on the available current to the lights.

 

Goose

[colmike]

Dave,

 

It sounds like your stator is doing it's best in keeping up with your power demands, but that judicial power management is going to best meet your needs. Goose's comment regarding installing a switch, through a relay, to your passing lights will allow you to eliminate that load when necessary. Another modification you might consider is installing a carb heater cut-off switch. Goose did a nice techincal article on this mod that you can find on the site here, http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=25572. I performed this same mod to my RSV, and used a simple toggle switch with a pilot light in it to show me when the carb heat circuit was getting power. If you or anyone else reading this thread is curious, AOPA (Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association) has published an easy to read/understand article about how carb icing is caused. That article is located here, http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/SB09.pdf. You will note that carb icing conditions are not due just to cold outside air temps as you might suspect, but a combination of factors such as temperature, humidty, dewpoint that may cause the moisture in the air to freeze causing icing and hampering carb efficiency. Understanding these conditions will allow you to better decide when you might want to toggle the carb heat on or off. Just a thought. Good luck.