RSTD die when shift to 1st (or 2nd....!!!) help please!!

[joetx67]

Hello.

Im new to this forum, just got my first 2005 RS de luxe...yehaaa.... I test rode it, it was nice... I rode it immediatly the next day, and the 3rd day this happend: I decided to try the cruise control(did not tryied in the test ride...I know...dumb), and whe I reach my desired speed, I engaged the CC, but the engine died... I start it again, came home and try to start it again; It did start in neutral, but since then, every time I engage the 1st or any shift, it died immediatly!!!!

 

So, at this point I can start the engine fine, as long as is in neutral, but it dies on me everytime I change to a shift.

 

My first guess was a failing side-stand switch, but I tested continuity and works fine. My second guess is some sort of clutch sensor or switch, but thats all I can think of.... Any help will be appreciated.... thanks in advance

[dingy]

When side stand is retracted, the circuit should read 0 ohms.

 

When side stand starts its downward travel, it will read open.

 

The RSV circuit diagrams are located at link below.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=42357

 

Gary

Edited January 14, 2012 by dingy
corrected ohm readings when stand is checked

[ToyOdie]

Sounds to me like a fault in the Cruise safety systems. Since the problem started when you set the cruise, one of the safety switches is telling it to shut down. I would check insde the control box for loose wires or contacts. Clean everything and apply dielectric grease to the contacts. (just a little!) Then I would also check both the brake switches, the clutch switch and the kick stand switch again. The cruise is just like in a cage. When you touch the brake or clutch the cruise should disenguage. I'm not sure why it would kill the engine but I bet its related to the cruise and the kick stand. Just my two cents.

 

[joetx67]

Thanks, DINGY and TOY!!! I will try that this weekend and let you know my progress.... in the circuir diagram that DINGY sent me, it shows an "EMERGENCY STOP SENSOR (FALL)".... I would like to check that too, since this bike was layed down for the former owner....somebody know where that sensor is?.... thanks in advance

 

Royal Star Tour de Luxe, 2005...

[dingy]

The fall over sensor is basically a metal ring on a curved bar. When bike is past its normal riding position this ring closes a circuit that shuts down the TCI.

 

It is wired together with the side stand switch to the same input on the TCI on a 1st gen, not sure about RSV's.

 

This switch has a very low rate of failures due to internal design. If it were going to fail, I would think it would not shut bike down when needed rather than a false trigger.

 

Gary

Edited January 8, 2012 by dingy

[dingy]

Attached are some pictures of a fall over sensor from a 1st gen. fall over switch.

 

When bike rolls over the ring slides up on the curved bar and makes contact with brass plate & shuts down TCI.

 

Gary

[joetx67]

Thanks againg DINGY !! I have not had time to work on it for a few days, but I will dedicate now to it... it is frustrating that it was running fine and it stopped now...

OK, I test continuity form the switch and with the stand retracted(in riding mode) it gave me 00.0 ohms when set to a 20Mohms scale, and 00.4ohms in a 200ohms scale.....gave me 1 with side down!!! is that correct? I thought 1 (reading) means open, since it is what it shows when 2 tester cables are apart, and zero when you put it together....

 

Anyway, bike shut down with the connector (there is a male-female connector from switch to main harness) unplugged and neutral light on.

 

I also tried putting together the 2 wires from conector to harness.... Im attaching a raw drawing of the wiring, since I probably did not explained right...

 

Any help will be appreciated

[RandyR]

0 ohms means a closed circuit or not open (what you get by touching the 2 probes together which is how you calibrate the meter)

 

infinity means an open circuit. (high end of scale)

 

1 means some resistance, but not very much. probably not right.

 

Just reread your statement.if your meter reads 1 when the probes are apart, then yes, thats an open.

[joetx67]

Thanks RANDY!!!...

[dingy]

Thanks againg DINGY !! I have not had time to work on it for a few days, but I will dedicate now to it... it is frustrating that it was running fine and it stopped now...

OK, I test continuity form the switch and with the stand retracted(in riding mode) it gave me 00.0 ohms when set to a 20Mohms scale, and 00.4ohms in a 200ohms scale.....gave me 1 with side down!!! is that correct? I thought 1 (reading) means open, since it is what it shows when 2 tester cables are apart, and zero when you put it together....

 

Anyway, bike shut down with the connector (there is a male-female connector from switch to main harness) unplugged and neutral light on.

 

I also tried putting together the 2 wires from conector to harness.... Im attaching a raw drawing of the wiring, since I probably did not explained right...

 

Any help will be appreciated

 

Set your meter on the lowest avaliable ohms scale to check this. 20K ohms scale on a 3 1/2 segment digital meter will show 0 ohms when 100 ohm resistor is checked.

If you have a higher end meter like a Fluke that has auto scaling, set it to manual, and set range where only ohm symbol is showing, not an M or K by it. This will give you best reading when looking for a poor continuity contact.

If you are using an analog meter (with needle) set to lowest ohm range still.

Any ohm reading must be taken with switch disconnected from circuit. DO NOT take an ohm reading on harness end of cable with an analog type meter (or digital for that matter). There are circuits in an analog meter called shunt circuits, which can put enough current back into the cable & into the TCI to destroy it.

Gary

[joetx67]

Ok, Gary... I double check the side stand switch and it does what is suppose to.... I also dissasembled the CControl switch, especting to see some shorted or rusted cable or connector, it actually looks pretty clean, all the little box (acceletate/desacelerate, cancel, on/off switches)... I did unplug the battery while doing this... double check the connectors on the clutch switch, seem ok... this bike does not have a side-stand light indicator, right?....

 

Symtoms are the same: it starts right away while in neutral, not matter side stand position, and die immediatly if shift to 1st or 2nd gear... the days before this I did not feel anything wrong with the clutch or brakes....

 

Some toughts?....thanks again...

 

Joe:depressed:

[joetx67]

Gary: Im attaching some pics of the actual readings, and also how I found the cruise control switch... Please note that the "1" reading is the same if both probes are not touching each other, and 0 or 00.5 (depending scale)if they do touch... I've got a "1" reading when sidestand is down

Thanks

[Owen]

Can we turn left???? I know everyone is looking at the possible electrical issues. But is it possible the clutch is locked up? How about raising the rear wheel off the ground and trying it?

Just a shot in the dark...

[joetx67]

Thanks OWEN... Acually I had the bike in a jack, with the rear wheel in the air... I will try anything!!! I will feel real bad if I have to take the bike to a dealer (both for the money and because I do not want to feel like I can do nothing..lol)... Clutch locked???mmmm... I have doubts about the clutch switch, since the wires are a little loose there, but I double check the wiring with the diagram that DINGY sent me... how do I know if the clutch is locked?...thanks again!!!

[wes0778]

how do I know if the clutch is locked?...

 

My thought on this is if the bike is WELL SECURED to the jack and the rear wheel is off the ground. Put the transmission in neutral, turn on the ignition, put the stand up, pull in the clutch lever and press the starter button. After the engine starts put the transmission in 1st and see what happens. If the engine continues to run, let it idle and shift up to 3rd or 4th. With the clutch lever pulled in apply the rear brake. If that drags down the engine the clutch is not releasing, i.e. "locked".

[RandyR]

or with the engine off, just pull in the clutch lever and roll the bike in gear. if it doesn't roll the clutch may be 'locked up'. that could be a problem in the clutch line in any of several places.

[rowdy7]

I may be missing something here but if I was going to check my clutch I would:

Put bike in 1st gear, pull the clutch lever and try to roll the bike. If it rolls the clutch is releasing.

 

(it starts right away while in neutral, not matter side stand position, and die immediatly if shift to 1st or 2nd gear)

 

Sure sounds electrical to me. What, if anything, electrical is connected to the shift lever/gears? The neutral light and the 5th gear light are all that come to mind.

 

My RSV manual shows a "self diagnosis procedure" for the CC. I assume the RSTD has one also. Since the problems seem to have started there I would run that procedure.

 

Since you just got the bike you may not have a manual but there is one on this site somewhere.

[dingy]

Thanks OWEN... Acually I had the bike in a jack, with the rear wheel in the air... I will try anything!!! I will feel real bad if I have to take the bike to a dealer (both for the money and because I do not want to feel like I can do nothing..lol)... Clutch locked???mmmm... I have doubts about the clutch switch, since the wires are a little loose there, but I double check the wiring with the diagram that DINGY sent me... how do I know if the clutch is locked?...thanks again!!!

 

I just realized that you have a Royal Star. I have not reworked a schematic for that model.

 

If someone would get me a copy of the factory version of the schematic I will try to redo it and get it posted here.

 

A high res scan will work or a PDF, or a copy in the mail. Also a link to where I can download it.

 

And my usual disclaimer, I have a 1st gen, so I have no hands on experience with either an RSV or RS.

 

Gary

[V7Goose]

When side stand is retracted, the circuit should read open.

 

When side stand starts its downward travel, it will read 0 ohms.

Gary

 

This information is not correct. The side stand switch is OPEN when the stand is down.

 

Hello.

Im new to this forum, just got my first 2005 RS de luxe...yehaaa.... I test rode it, it was nice... I rode it immediatly the next day, and the 3rd day this happend: I decided to try the cruise control(did not tryied in the test ride...I know...dumb), and whe I reach my desired speed, I engaged the CC, but the engine died... I start it again, came home and try to start it again; It did start in neutral, but since then, every time I engage the 1st or any shift, it died immediatly!!!!

 

So, at this point I can start the engine fine, as long as is in neutral, but it dies on me everytime I change to a shift.

 

My first guess was a failing side-stand switch, but I tested continuity and works fine. My second guess is some sort of clutch sensor or switch, but thats all I can think of.... Any help will be appreciated.... thanks in advance

It certainly seems suspicious that the problem may have started when you first touched the cruise system, but I suspect that is simply a coincidence since I do not find any circuits that should tie your problem to the cruise. Just for grins, please make sure the cruise on/off switch is really OFF (switch it on/off a few times, then leave it off and try the bike again). I suggest this only because I know that switch is often left always in the 'middle' position, which is technically neither on nor off (the cruise system is not 'on' until the switch is momentarily pushed on the 'on' side, which activates a self-locking power relay). I still do not think it is related to your problem, but worth a 10 second test.

 

Now, let's talk about the actual circuits that are involved in the problem you report:

 

For the engine to run, the ignitor must receive a ground on the 'SS' terminal. This ground is either supplied via the neutral switch (through a diode inside the starter cut-off/fuel pump relay) or through the side stand switch when in the up position. The side stand ground is also isolated by a diode (#12 on the schematic). In either case, the needed ground is routed through a separate section of the ignition switch to the SS pin on the ignitor. The easy test would simply be to unplug the two-wire plug to the ignition switch and just shunt the Blue/Black wire straight to ground, which should allow the engine to run no matter what position the neutral or side stand switches are in. HOWEVER, since both ground sources are isolated by diodes, I am hesitant to suggest that test, as there may be some risk to the ignitor by providing the direct line to ground without a diode.

 

So, how to do the easiest tests? I would simply pull the plug from the ignition switch and use an ohm meter to check for ground continuity on the Blue/Yellow wire when either the bike is in neutral or the side stand is up, but NOT when the bike is in gear and the side stand is down. Unfortunately, from reading your other posts, It seems you are not well versed on the use of an ohmmeter or electronics, so the diodes in these circuits may be problematic for you to perform this test. Note that ultimately you may need to not only test the ground continuity through the switches, but ALSO the state of the diodes to make sure neither of them is shorted, so if your troubleshooting gets to this point, you may need some in-person help from someone who understands those tests.

 

But for now, here is a simple test that requires no meter. Both of these ground switches also control the starter motor through a different section of the starter cut-out relay, allowing us to use the starter as a simple check of the ground circuits. I will start by assuming your neutral switch and associated diode are working simply because your bike runs in neutral. Does your neutral light come on in neutral and go off in gear?

 

Now the tests - turn the key on and put the bike in gear so the neutral light is out - now raise the side stand. Does the neutral light stay out? If not, then the diode in the starter cut-out/fuel pump relay is bad.

 

Next, with the key still on, the bike still in gear, and the side stand still up, pull in the clutch and try the starter (don't try to actually start the bike, just note if the starter engages). Does it engage? If not, then the problem is either the side stand switch, diode 12, or the related wires.

 

If the starter does engage in that test, try it again with the side stand down (key on, in gear, clutch in). Now the starter should NOT engage, simply proving that the side stand switch is working by removing the necessary ground.

 

Let us know the results of those simple tests and we'll figure out where to go next.

Goose

Edited January 14, 2012 by V7Goose
typos

[dingy]

Goose is correct, I screwed up the side stand continuity in second post. I edited that post to correct it.

 

Attached below is a copy of the starting circuits from the 2004 service manual for a Royal Star Tour Deluxe (XVZ13CTT) and a copy of the wiring diagram from the service manual that I now have.

 

Gary

[joetx67]

WOOOW VGOOSE!!!!! Very explicit material here....I will do that as soon as I can I will keep you posted.... Actually, Im not that bad in using the multimeter, but, honestly, the answer DINGY gave me get me totally confused because I was desesperate (could not think right)!!!!....DO NOT TAKE ME WRONG... Im very very grateful with DINGY and everybody else.... Y'ALL GUYS ARE GREAT, THANK YOU VERY MUCH... You are correct, I do not have the manual but trying to get one.... I know there is a diode somewhere in the circuit, I have measures diodes before, my problem is that I have it found it physically in the harness....I will do it as soon as I can....

[frankd]

Joe,

 

I just looked at the latest print that Gary posted and here's what I think. Take a jumper and connect the L/W (Blue with a white stripe) wire that goes to the side stand switch to ground. If it runs OK, your sidestand switch is bad. If not, your Starting circuit cutoff relay assemble has a bad diode in it and it needs to be replaced. Like Gary, I have no experience working on a 2nd gen, but this is what the print shows. Look at the print. Item 37 is the neutral switch, and it grounds the SB wire (Sky Blue) when the bike is in neutral. The SB wire is connected to the center bottom of the starting cutoff relay assy. (#21). When the bike is in neutral, the 3 diodes in the center of #21 have their cathodes (the sideways line) tied to neutral, and this will also pull the SB/W wire to ground thru the top diode. SB/W is connected to #46, your neutral LED, and it will light. The left diode will pull the B/Y (Black with Yellow strip) to ground AND pick up the left relay. This enables the start pushbutton and the bike can crank if desired. Also the L/W wire (Blue with a white stripe) is pulled to ground. THis is the one you're interested in...It goes through the ignition switch, and grounds the L/B (Blue with a Black stripe) which goes to the ignition module. I believe this shuts the ignition off when it isn't grounded. This means it must be grounded to run. It also goes to the clutch switch, and if the clutch is pulled in the clutch switch connects it to the B/Y wire, which is the starter PB enable, so you can crank.

 

So now you have your bike running, in neutral, and the center stand is up. #24 is the side stand switch, and the L/W wire is supposed to be grounded when the sidestand is UP. The L/W wire goes to good old #21, and the diode there will pull the L/Y wire to ground, which will allow your bike to keep on running, and also crank if you pull in the clutch.

 

One more thing...If you are using a digital meter to check the diodes, make sure you put the selector switch in the diode position, not the ohm position. If you are using an analog meter, the resistance position is what you use. Make sure you ground the black lead and use the red lead to test so that the diodes will be forward biased (or so they can turn on).

 

Good Luck,

 

Frank D.

[V7Goose]

The shop manual is available for free download on this site. Cough up for a membership and I'll tell ya where to find it!

Goose

[RandyR]

go here to get a copy of the 2005-2009 RSTD service manual.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=58269

Edited January 15, 2012 by RandyR
oops. I gave it away Goose

[dingy]

The shop manual is available for free download on this site. Cough up for a membership and I'll tell ya where to find it!

Goose

 

 

go here to get a copy of the 2005-2009 RSTD service manual.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=58269

Randy, didn't you get the PM?

 

We were going to withhold information till he paid up.

 

He has been here less than 2 weeks and we are strong arming the newbies.

 

Gary

 

You have been ...

 

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af193/gdingy101/Goose.jpg

 

..ED

Edited January 15, 2012 by dingy