I need to get this off my chest

[DanOh]

People that are a few pounds overweight and eat cheeseburgers are bad.....

 

People that ride those dangerous motorcycle things are just reckless....

 

 

It is a matter of personal choice. No one's choices are any of my business unless they directly do me harm.

[Mariner Fan]

I wish the PC Police would just go away.

 

 

 

Subject one - it may be insensitive to post personal opinion about safety gear when the main subject is that someone is hurt. I think that point by the OP was well understood by all. I will not comment further on it except to say that I do not believe anybody was deliberately being insensitive.

 

 

 

 

I agree that the person posting the comment wasn't trying to be insensitive but I'll say right now that it bugged me. There is a time and place to discuss that stuff.

[SilvrT]

heh ... I just realized something... I didn't post earlier (than skydoc) coz I was "in fear" of what ya'll might think about my post.... DUH!!! :doh:

 

[Marcarl]

Wow Dano,, look what you started. Now we got ourselves an old fashioned family get-together. Opinions flying from the top to the bottom and from one side to the other,,,,, but you know what amazes me????? The fact that through this all, we are not cutting each other up, we are not berating each other. Most of us have said that the post was insensitive, even Trader admitted he could have done different,,,, but I did not read things about leaving this site, that someone should go elsewhere,,, etc. I read honest opinions, and suggestions, maybe even some guidance as to how to carry forward.

Folks, friends, we all screw up at times, and sometimes we need to be called up on the carpet for doing so. Well we did that in a grand olde fashioned way. Thanks for being the family we fondly call: VentureRider.org.

[SC89Venture]

2011 has been a rough year for injuries for sure. Getting to the point of "Oh God, who's next?" when you log in.

It's all good.

[XV1100SE]

This thread has liberally mixed three different subjects

 

Sorry... to the three listed... add a fourth that has been proven statistically....

Subject 4) Helmets save lives and reduce head injuries

 

I responded to the comments in the other thread about Trader's post. I read it twice before I realized that he wasn't trying to be insensitive. I got it.... and posted that the way it should be interpreted was that we all need to be careful and that protective gear helps.

 

I agree it wasn't the best place to post that comment... but I'm sure we've all posted something that we later regretted or was not interpreted the way we intended.

 

We all have the right to choose the level of protection we wear. Yes, I understand and acknowledge that full leathers should be worn all the time and yet when it is hot I'll wear jeans and a t-shirt. Do I know better? Yes... but I do it anyway. I always wear a full face helmet (for the extra protection for the face/jaw) and boots (because I feel more stable at a stop than shoes would). So for those of you that choose not to wear a helmet, that is your choice. I'm not going to preach to you that you should wear a helmet for safety (preaching is against the rules too)...

 

I think if a poll were taken regarding the subject of this thread... yes, it was not the appropriate place to post those comments would win hands down. Trader acknowledges this, so lets all move on to better thoughts, remember (whether you pray for them or offer best wishes and support) those who have had accidents this year, and hope or pray that everyone else stays safe and healthy.

[E-Fishin-C]

Jeff....I believe You may need HELP!!! This is one of the Syndromes from IRAQ It caused by Extreme Heat and lack of Drinking Northern Ontario ALE The remedy for this syndrome is for you to come up here to Northern Ontario's Charlie's Retreat:hurts:

[wes0778]

Thanks for the endorsement for non crazy mini. I don't think many are gonna buy it though.

 

 

Help us ALL, She's BAAAAAAAKKKK!!!!! :yikes: :rasberry::rasberry:

:crackup::crackup::crackup:

[dacheedah]

First I do wear protective gear almost, but not everytime I ride. I remember a surgeon who was performing a double fusion on my wife's back. My mother in law did / does not like that we ride and she asked him if he rode a motorcycle. He replies yes and then a helmet discussion took place. He said he wouldn't wear one. She asked why and he said because I work on people who wear them. Again it's personal choice.

 

Next on statistics, they lie. Case in point a man has a drink with dinner and then drives home. He stops at a red light and is rear ended by a sober driver. On the accident report you check that he has been drinking and this is an alcohol related accident.

 

Years ago they put a box on accident forms about seat belts. Now I was a city cop, you were required to ask if people were wearing seat belts on all accidents. If they responded no you wrote them a ticket and checked the box. Most accidents in town are relatively slow speed and therefore minor. Not wanting a ticket rarely do people say they were wearing a seat belt. Now highway accidents are another story. Bottom line is seat belts save lives. Truth is that you are 50 / 50 on injuries and wearing seat belts. Small people, especially women are more prone to injuries from seat belts and air bags.

 

I went through emergency vehicle operator instructor training. I also was a motor vehicle accident re-constructionist and am also a NASBLA boating accident re-constructionist. I have seen a car roll over several times that ejected the non belted passengers ( who all survived but with injuries ) and the belted passengers died. I have also seen it the other way.

 

I believe that you can improve your odds of surviving a crash a number of ways. Driving skills are the most important survival skills you have. You can only control two things in any motor vehicle, speed and direction. We are taught basic skills with minimum passing standards to drive but not maneuvers to avoid crashes. That is an advanced class that good rider will take on their own.

 

I will close by stating my two cents, we are adults and free to make decisions that have consequences and outcomes that we take ownership of. So wearing a helmet like a chain on a wallet is the riders choice.

[hillrider]

In this instance "Freedom of Choice" equals increased insurance rates for me. I choose to wear the gear. If you don't, that's fine. I just don't want to pay for your actions.

[footsie]

I work in the hospital, ICU mainly but help in the er at times, I have seen it both ways, someone with out gear and those with full gear. I have seen a rider with no gear that fell on the interstate with minimal injuries, and with fatal injuries. I have riders with complete riding gear boots, armor jackets and pants with the best of helmets dead with a broken neck BECAUSE of the helment, seen the same come get checked out and go home.

Folks believe what you want to when your time comes, its over.

 

And by the yes I do concider my family in every thing I do. I have life insurance that will cover me if I am killed on my bike. I made sure of that when I purchased it.

 

Ok me myself, I ride a bike for the freedom, I like to feel the wind, what is the point of a motorcycle. If become so afraid that I might get hurt riding a bike that I have to wear so much protective gear that I am so uncomfortable, and can not feel the wind and freedom of ridding, I will sell the bike and ride in Karren's convertible.

 

Now my best friend puts his helmet on and jacket to pull across the street, and thats just fine too.

 

Wear want you want, what ever you a comfortable ridding in, but never ever think that you a protected on a bike.

 

Vigilant no distracted, observing everthing around you is the best policy, ride safe not safer crashing.

 

Just my opinion, which like everyone elses, like rear ends everybody has one and most stink.

 

 

Gregg

[spear]

Permit me if I may to slip in a piece I wrote for my local weekend paper.

I am a resident columnist and thought this piece might 'entertain' some of you.

DRESS FOR THE SLIDE, NOT FOR THE RIDE.

Excuse me for getting up on my high horse – make that getting up on my bike seat – but I’ve decided I’ve seen enough and it’s time to let off some steam.

I’m talking about the number of motorcycle riders I see who think they are bullet-proof.

Let me start off by saying that I’ve been a biker (NOT a bikie) for most of my licensed life. All of family rides bikes – big bikes. My Mum and Dad courted on a bike way back just after WW2. I have four brothers and a sister who all ride bikes. In fact we make a habit of having a biker get-together once a year – as siblings are destined to do. We do BIG miles and we do it decked out in the appropriate riding gear.

I started on a 250cc twin and have worked my way up through a 400cc twin, a 750cc Honda 4 (what a classic that was) to a BMW tourer and now I luxuriate on my V4 1300cc tourer/cruiser. And I dress for the slide, not for the ride. It’s a pain in the butt getting dressed to go for a ride but I do it comfortable in the knowledge that if (God forbid) for some reason I have to part company with my machine I’m prepared to meet the bitumen and survive. And my family of fellow riders does the same.

I shudder and grimace when I see clots – and that’s the only way to describe them – ripping around town in summer on their bikes, dressed in tee-shirts, shorts and thongs. I kid you not – I’ve seen it often. Okay, they may be just riding down to the corner store for a packet of smokes or a carton of milk apparently safe in the knowledge that it’s not far and nothing will happen to them. How long does it take for an errant tin-top driver (that’s biker talk for car driver) to have a momentary lapse or a “sorry, I didn’t see you” session to bring them unstuck. It happens – I know. I’ve seen it happen. One second is all it takes and your butt or elbow is skidding down the road, leaving a trail of blood, skin and bone for roaming dogs to clean up after sunset.

At least we’re forced to wear helmets these days, and that’s lessened the amount of brain trauma vegetating in our hospitals and nursing homes.

Folks - and I’m now directly addressing tee-shirt motorcyclists - it’s just not worth it. If you want to enjoy the absolute pleasure of the freedom of being on a bike – then do it sensibly. Dress yourselves from head to toe as if you’re going to war, because it is a war out there. Somewhere on the roads of this great country there is somebody who wants to (intentionally or otherwise) kill you.

For all those years when I was a cop (and I spent over twenty years as a forensics investigator) I saw the worst of motor vehicle crashes. I saw the worst of the worst. I also saw survivors – motorcyclists who dressed for the slide, not for the ride. I also saw the tee-shirt brigade who, but for the sake of a helmet, leather jacket, biker pants and boots, should still be with us.

Just watch Casey Stoner and his buddies tearing around the racing tracks of the world. Watch when one of them comes off at over 300km/hr and slides down the track. What do they do after they’ve finished sliding? They get straight up and try to resurrect what’s left of their bike. Why? Because they can. Because they’ve dressed for the slide, not for the ride.

Motorcyclists were once and often described as ‘Temporary Australians.’ Truckers still call them TAs. Coupled with the need to dress appropriately is the need to ride defensively. I know the RTA motorcycle license requirements are a lot more stringent today than they were when I first obtained my license all those years ago, and that’s good. A couple of failed rider tests never hurt anybody. Makes you think!

Motorcycle clothing is not a fashion accessory. It is a necessity. No, it’s not cheap. But what value do you place on your well-being? You insure your house and contents. You insure your car. You insure your bike. Why? In case something goes wrong. Then why the hell don’t you insure yourselves by ensuring you are ‘covered’. Covered from head to toe to survive that slide if and whenever it just may happen. Who knows, it may never happen. You may go all through your life not having to make a claim on your house or car insurance. You may go through your life not having to make a claim on your bike insurance. So why not go through your motorcycle-riding life confident in the knowledge that if crap should ever turn to clay, you are fully covered?

You know, there are old bikers and there are bold bikers. But, there are no old, bold bikers. They never made it. I’d like to see all you young, bullet-proof biker guys and girls live to enjoy many years of one of the greatest pleasures of motoring and make it to growing old.

I don’t try to explain why I ride a motorcycle. For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't - no explanation is possible!

[CaptainJoe]

footsie "I have riders with complete riding gear boots, armor jackets and pants with the best of helmets dead with a broken neck BECAUSE of the helment, seen the same come get checked out and go home. "

 

I'm thinking any fall violent enough to "cause a helmet" to break someones neck would surely be enough to break their skull (results being the same)

 

 

Spear "Just watch Casey Stoner and his buddies tearing around the racing tracks of the world. Watch when one of them comes off at over 300km/hr and slides down the track. What do they do after they’ve finished sliding? They get straight up and try to resurrect what’s left of their bike. Why? Because they can. Because they’ve dressed for the slide, not for the ride."

 

This brings up a good point... I don't know of one Professional racer

that doesn't wear a helmet and Protective gear... Do you?

 

Perhaps they know something the rest of us don't...LOL

 

Logic, statistics and common sense... Can't be applied in this case as it's approaching the same mindset some get when discussing politics and religion...

 

Talk all you want but your not going to change anothers mind.

 

My dad who passed 5 years ago had a saying: Experience is the best teacher.

 

This is the truest thing thats ever been said...

I for one like to learn (get my experiences) from what I see going on around me.

[dacheedah]

I just wish someone here had an opinion.

[FreezyRider]

One thing that no one has mentioned and I think is worthwhile to bring out...

 

When I suggest to one of my riding buddies that they should wear a helmet, it's not because I'm trying to run his life, control him, dictate to him, conform him to my mold, etc. Not at all. And those are the things that most anti-helmet riders will immediately bring up. No, I say that because I CARE ABOUT my friends. I don't want to have to see any one of them lose part of their gray matter and lay on a bed for years like a vegetable. I work in a nursing home. Believe me when I say that I am not afraid to die due to a motorcycle accident. I am TERRIFIED of laying in a bed for years and having someone feed me, bathe me, dress me, wipe my butt....I see it everyday and it is worse than death. All of us should have dealt with the possibility that we could lose our lives in an accident. I and my riding buddies all know that it is possible that any one of us could see another die while riding. We accept that....I think we have to accept that if we are going to be able to ride and enjoy it. However, none of us wants to see another's brains scattered all over the pavement. No way to prepare for that.

 

Wearing a helmet may not save my life if the collision is severe....I know that. However, I do believe that wearing a helmet will decrease...maybe not totally eliminate....the odds of ending up as a vegetable and being a burden to my family and others who care about me. That's why I wear one.

 

So, if you ever hear me say something about wearing a helmet, it's only because I care about you, not because I'm wanting to control you. I'll never say a word to you about a helmet if I don't care.....

 

I am so thankful that we are discussing this reasonably, and that we'll even have the chance to hear from Dano himself about the issue someday. Even though I only met him in person once, there is a bond and a caring that formed from that one meeting and from sharing in the posting and membership here.

 

Ride safe everyone. Hopefully we'll get a break from all of these accidents soon.

[Yamamike]

I thought alot about posting here and this is my personal experience. I live in southern Florida where it is hot so I ride in a t-shirt and shorts, well my friends that ride Harley's yell at me all the time for this but they refuse to wear helmets. I don't say a word because I have been in an accident before and know for a fact that I can live with road rash but I cannot live with a busted head. I just recently found that out again, if I did not have my helmet on I would not be here today but that being said I will never tell anyone what they should or should not wear while riding so do not tell me. All I can say is that people who do not wear helmets are selfish and do not think of the consequences of what happens to there family when they do have an accident.

Only thoughts from a recent surviving crash victim.

Tom

 

I agree with all the live let live comments 100% but feel I should point out that severe road rash can (and has) kill people...just not as quickly (and as often) as a "busted head". Ride how you want but just be aware of possible consequences!

I'm just sayin'.

Ride safe,

Mike

[naturbar]

I agree that the person posting the comment wasn't trying to be insensitive but I'll say right now that it bugged me. There is a time and place to discuss that stuff.

i have no dog in this fight...i do have my opinion(s) and i have the right to post or not post those opinions...i, like many others here have strong opinions/beliefs and probably keep them mostly to themselves rather than being divisive....i don't fault anyone for expressing themselves or not expressing themselves.

the original poster did re post later that he was sorry for his faux pas. i say let's accept his apology and move ahead. the discussion about gear vs no gear can certainly be discussed/debated however without reference to the person who made the original comment. i'll be the first to say i forgive him....anyone else?

[Trader]

Hi Folks

 

WOW...really stirred up a hornets nest with this one didn't I?

 

I've already told you all I NEVER meant my encouragement to wear a helmet as a slight to Dano.

 

I admit to a lack of good judgement...I probably should have either shut up or started a new thread.

 

I did get a number of PM's telling me they understood I meant no harm!

 

But, I do want to apologize to anyone who took offence at my comments.

 

 

Some folks got their backs up because they thought my comments were trying to "force" my opinion on others.

 

Not at all....as someone else said, it is only because I care and I would hate to see anyone with their brains all over the road.

 

I saw that in high school The driver accellerated as my friend, who was riding in the box, was standing up to get out. He did 1 1/2 back flip and smashed his head like a pumpkin on the pavement....and died.

 

About 30 years ago I was invoved in an accident riding passenger on my best friends bike. We were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It happened very quickly and we went down...probably close to 55 mph.

 

I remember rolling like a log. It was almost fun! I ended up against the fence at the side of the highway like a safety net with only a few bruises.

My buddy hit a 4"x4" sign post as he was rolling and was dead before we got to the hospital.

 

In that one, and in several minor accidents....I have never even SCUFFED my helmet and my friend who died did not either. So wearing a helmet made no difference and my friend is dead anyway.

If he wasn't wearing a helmet I'm sure it would have been announced and reflected in statistics . Yet, it had no bearing on the cause of death.

 

So why do I always wear a helmet? In Ontario it is the law...but even when I travel to states where I have a choice I always wear it because it's the smart thing to do.

 

I'm not some fanatic.

I wear a leather jacket 95% of the time, western boots and gloves...but no armour...no kevlar jeans

 

I justify it by believing that road rash probably won't kill me...but mushed brains will.

 

Once again...to those who offered understanding and support...Thank you

To those who were upset by my comments....I am truely sorry.

 

Your Friend

 

Steve H (Trader)

[Carbon_One]

I for one will accept this apology. Like you've said this topic is & can be a heated subject for which there is no 100% right answer. We all must make our decisions on gear for what we feel the risks are worth and what the area requires where we're riding.

Larry

I

[bongobobny]

I too accept your apology Steve, although in my mind for me no apology is necessary. I know in your heart you meant well, I too read the news article and noticed no helmet and wished he would have had one on, but you can't change reality, it happened. We can't repeat the exact same accident and compare results with and without a helmet. We can only hope and pray that he fully recovers in a timely manner, and if any good can come out of this incident then let it be wisdom for us all.

 

You simply responded out of emotions without considering the ramifications of your statement where it was made, something all of us are guilty of more than once. Apology accepted!

[GaryZ]

Car accidents outnumber bike accidents by a bunch.

ERs are full of car accident injuries and the occasional motorcycle injury.

 

Race Car drivers wear fire suits, helmets, 5-point restraint harness, and more.

Motorcycle racers wear full leathers, helmets, neck restraints, etc.

 

Yet not one of the 'all gear' folks mention car drivers should be doing race car stuff.

 

Why? How about they don't want to be uncomfortable or inconvenient.

 

I believe if you say that each person should decide what color t-shirt to wear to church,

don't follow with 'I wear striped t-shirts because they are safer'

 

If riding motorcycles is too dangerous or too expensive for you, don't do it

Edited October 28, 2011 by GaryZ

[saddlebum]

I know Steve meant well despite the fact that his timing was a little off. He is just not the I told you so type of person. I too believe strongly in wearing a helmet and have had falls were a helmet has saved my bacon. Yet there have been times when riding states, that have no helmet law, were I have thrown caution to the wind and rode without, simply because it feels so darned good.

 

With regards to road rash, some have said that they can live with that. Keep in mind though that even road rash can be lethal as uncontrollable infection can set in and infection is becoming harder to combat every day.

 

I do however believe strongly that if you have children and loved ones who depend on you, that you owe it to them, to protect yourself as much as possible in whatever you do, be it work or play.

Edited October 28, 2011 by saddlebum

[myminpins]

Wow, heated subject, eh? I didn't read the "offensive comment" in the "other thread" so I'll just say my two cents.

 

It's the law to wear a helmet everywhere in Canada. I will always wear a helmet anyway because you can live with broken to pieces legs, arms, toes, feet, hands. You can fix most everything on you - except your brain. If it's broken into many pieces, it's rare that you get another chance.

 

I am very sensitive to heat and often ride in the summers with minimal gear as I get literally physically sick if I am overheated and I'll pass out - and fall off!!!

 

I will never argue with someone who says you SHOULD always wear protective gear. Yup, they are correct. I also should never speed. I should never take risks. I should never curse. I should never do many, many, many things - but I do. No one's perfect, especially not met.

 

I do hate the dirty looks, the nasty comments, the "I won't associate with an idiot like you" type of people who hate those of us who refuse to dress in leather from head to foot every time we get on a bike. I'm an adult. I'm well aware of the risks.

 

The best way to prevent an accident is really good preventive defensive driving to the best of your ability. In that respect, Mike is the perfect driver. He's much more cautious than I am and has had professional training way beyond what I have had when it comes to being careful on the road.

 

If we fall and we're on the highway, I'm in huge, huge trouble. I may not even live to tell about it, especially if it's a hot summer day. Thing is, 99% of the time, we're on secondary roads where traffic (around here) is VERY VERY minimal so at least we lower our risks as much as possible.

 

I never tell anyone what to wear, what they SHOULD wear, etc., etc., etc., unless they are a child. If you're an adult, you know the risks. You know the chances you chose to take or not to take. It's not my place to say a word to you except, "Have a great day"

 

I do wish helmet laws were everywhere and they are in this country. I won't wear a full face helmet - neither will Mike. They are the MOST protection you can get, especially in a slide or slow fall. I wear a 3/4 helmet, as does he. We are comfortable, we have fun and we enjoy being on our bike.

 

As long as you do the same and are friendly with us, we have nothing but good things to say to you.

 

Saying anything about what someone was wearing or NOT wearing AFTER they are hurt is kinda like closing the door after the horses all left the barn, isn't it? Does no good and just makes you look a tad silly.

 

It IS really nice to see all the opinions here with no cursing, no all out fighting, no huge hassles. It is very nice to belong to a place where everyone is respectful of everyone else.

 

We don't have to agree all the time but at least we can be civil and polite.

 

My

[V7Goose]

I believe if you say that each person should decide what color t-shirt to wear to church,

don't follow with 'I wear striped t-shirts because they are safer'

I do not understand your point - why do you think someone should not have the right to express their own opinion?

 

Personally, I think everyone should buy the color of vehicle that they prefer, but I do not buy black vehicles because they are ugly.

 

And I have a right to say that, even though somebody else may think they are beautiful.

 

I ask again that everyone read the different opinions that are expressed (if they are so inclined), and feel free to accept or reject those opinions as you wish. But do not try to tell the other person that they do not have the right to express that opinion.

Goose

[playboy]

Car accidents outnumber bike accidents by a bunch.

ERs are full of car accident injuries and the occasional motorcycle injury.

 

Race Car drivers wear fire suits, helmets, 5-point restraint harness, and more.

Motorcycle racers wear full leathers, helmets, neck restraints, etc.

Yet not one of the 'all gear' folks mention car drivers should be doing race car stuff.

 

Why? How about they don't want to be uncomfortable or inconvenient.

 

I believe if you say that each person should decide what color t-shirt to wear to church,

don't follow with 'I wear striped t-shirts because they are safer'

 

If riding motorcycles is too dangerous or too expensive for you, don't do it

Gary those cages have a big enough advantage they get all leather ed up they might really try to come after us and the texting would get worse if they wore helmets .