Starting Problems

[frankd]

Because you have 12V on the Blue/white wire, the solenoid is PROBABLY good. Verify this by grounding the blue/white wire with the key ON---if the solenoid is good, it'll crank.

 

If the solenoid is good, the next item is the STARTING CIRCUIT CUT-OFF RELAY must be picked up. On my 83, this was in the headlight bucket. To pick up this relay, you must be in neutral or have the clutch in (You do have it on the center stand with the side stand up, the bike and the bike in neutral don't you??). Is your neutral light 'ON'? The starting circuit cut-off relay is on a board that also has the flasher relay and the turnsignal canceling unit on it. Make sure the relay is all the way installed and hasn't shaken out of it's socket.

 

If the starting ciruit cut=off relay is picked up, the only other potential problem is the start push button. If you want to check that easily, take it apart, turn the key on (kill switch ON) and ground the blue/white wire that goes to the pushbutton switch.

 

Frank

[bkuhr]

Because you have 12V on the Blue/white wire, the solenoid is PROBABLY good. Verify this by grounding the blue/white wire with the key ON---if the solenoid is good, it'll crank.

 

If the solenoid is good, the next item is the STARTING CIRCUIT CUT-OFF RELAY must be picked up. On my 83, this was in the headlight bucket. To pick up this relay, you must be in neutral or have the clutch in (You do have it on the center stand with the side stand up, the bike and the bike in neutral don't you??). Is your neutral light 'ON'? The starting circuit cut-off relay is on a board that also has the flasher relay and the turnsignal canceling unit on it. Make sure the relay is all the way installed and hasn't shaken out of it's socket.

 

If the starting ciruit cut=off relay is picked up, the only other potential problem is the start push button. If you want to check that easily, take it apart, turn the key on (kill switch ON) and ground the blue/white wire that goes to the pushbutton switch.

 

Frank

 

12v on solenoid r/w is after all cut off relay safety circuits. 12v on r/w=no issue with safety systems, and 12v on L/w indicates that the coil internal the solenoid is not open(defective). Still possible for solenoid to not operate correctly though.

Due to measuring 12v on L/w, and it does not change when start button pressed indicates problem with ground side of circuit thru start button to solenoid.

[dingy]

Because you have 12V on the Blue/white wire, the solenoid is PROBABLY good. Verify this by grounding the blue/white wire with the key ON---if the solenoid is good, it'll crank.

 

Frank

 

Solenoid could be passing voltage through the coil and still be bad. Probably the main contact/s in the solenoid would go before coil.

 

It could even be clicking and be toast, there is a lot of current going through that contact.

 

Gary

[frankd]

12v on solenoid r/w is after all cut off relay safety circuits. 12v on r/w=no issue with safety systems, and 12v on L/w indicates that the coil internal the solenoid is not open(defective). Still possible for solenoid to not operate correctly though.

Due to measuring 12v on L/w, and it does not change when start button pressed indicates problem with ground side of circuit thru start button to solenoid.

 

Guys, the problem bike is an 84, and the 84 & 85 Vr have the Red/white wire connected to the 'kill switch' and then on blue/white wire first you have the contacts in the 'starter circuit cut off relay' and then after that the starter pushbutton. On 83's the starter circuit cut off relay is on the red/white, and the only thing that's in the blue/white wire is the starter pushbutton. On the Mk II's the only small wire that's coming out of the solenoid is the blue/white wire and all control is on it. The positive side of the solenoid coil is tied directly to the positive battery lead side of the solenoid. We have to make sure we're all talking about the 84 & 85 wiring.

[bkuhr]

Frank, you are correct.

The diagram I have is labeled 83-85, but review of diagrams in libary, 84-85 is different from 83 I have been using.

 

Please disrequard my incorrect info.

[dingy]

Here is a copy of the 83, 84-85 & 86-93 starting circuits for what it's worth.

 

Gary

[dingy]

I will start this post by saying, 'No Venture parts were harmed in the making of this post, however there was an unfortunate VMax casualty'

 

Pictures attached are of a group of solenoids from a MKI, MKII Venture and VMax.

 

1st picture is of on left an MKII Venture, middle is I believe an 83 Venture (probably similar to 84-85), and on the right is a VMax solenoid.

 

[ATTACH]61699[/ATTACH]

 

 

Next is shown why the MKII's only need 1 wire in control circuit, on the right side there is a jumper from the coil terminal to the large terminal that is connected to the positive battery. The MKI's and the VMax's have two wires in the small coil control circuit. The MKII circuitry is all done on the 12V- side.

 

[ATTACH]61700[/ATTACH]

 

 

This picture shows the VMax solenoid split in half. Right right side is the coil, plunger & spring. The two small studs are for the control circuit wires.

 

Left side is the main contact set. The two silver colored pads are the tops of the studs the main heavy starter circuit wires are attached to. Between the two silver studs is a plastic plunger nub for the copper contact plate between the two studs. This plastic nub keeps the coil plunger from contacting the two stud tops when the coil is de-energized. Normally the spring in the coil side keeps the plunger in a position to press down on the plastic nub and break the connection between the two studs.

 

[ATTACH]61701[/ATTACH]

 

 

This picture shows the plunger and spring removed from the coil pack on the right side.

 

On the left side is the two studs removed and the copper contact plate that completes the circuit. Notice the dislocation from arcing on the stud base to the left. This carbon build up is enough to cause failure of this solenoid. Not obvious in the picture is a spring in the contact black housing in the center hole. This spring pushes the copper contact plate into two stud bases when the coil is energized.

 

[ATTACH]61702[/ATTACH]

 

 

This picture shows a closer view of the contact side. Arcing damage to stud faces is more visible.

 

[ATTACH]61703[/ATTACH]

 

 

Gary

Edited October 15, 2011 by dingy

[uthpda]

At long last I am able to actually work on the bike! After some crazy times at work and running two marathons, I have some time to actually mess with the bike which is been neglected!

 

Since my last post... (forever ago). I ordered and installed a new solenoid. It was fairly inexpensive of of ebay AND in jumping the old one i made it difficult to put back on after take in off:whistling:(and that's all I have to say about that)

Sooo...with the new solenoid installed, nothing has changed. I clean the started button, nothing changed...jump the l/w on the start switch...no luck... then I backstabbed the l/w on the solenoid and she started right up. My conclusion is (tell me if I am wrong) is that the rely is bad. (someone mentioned that in one of the first posts) I am assuming it is the blue rely in the headlight boot that is the problem. Is there a way to confirm this and when can I get a new rely?

 

Thanks for all the help so far, and please don't take my not reply in as not being thankful or the help cuz I am! I am really excited cuz she jumped right to life as soon jumped that rely...now I want to ride!

[uthpda]

is it possible to remove the start up cutoff relay? There are a bit pricey (for me at least) at about $50-$70 bucks.

What effect will it have if it is removed? What systems does it effect? or is there a way to replace it with a different relay?

 

I am running out of riding time this year and what to get in a few last rides before the snow and ice.

[frankd]

Dave,

 

Please don't just buy parts to replace randomly....I'll help you find the problem.

 

I 'assume' that you got it to crank by jumping the small L/W (blue with a white stripe) that goes to the new solenoid to ground. Is this correct??

 

If so, does your green neutral light work??

 

Do you have a test light or voltmeter?

 

Frank D.

[uthpda]

Thanks for the help!

I did get it running by jumping the L/W to the ground. My neutral light does work and I have tried starting with the clutch pulled in to see if it is the diode. I have also tried grounding the starter switch to make sure it wasn't the button. I also cleaned all the contacts on the starter button, just in case.

That is why I came to the relay as the problem.

 

I do have a voltmeter, and am willing to use it, just let me know what I to check and I will attempt it.

[dingy]

Look at post #31 and open up the second PDF, 84-85 Yamaha Venture Starting Circuit.

 

The problem would seem to be that if you can get bike to run by jumping the L/W wire to ground that the start switch is not closing and completing the circuit to ground and picking the start relay up. You are only bypassing one component and its associated wiring by jumping L/W wire to ground. This narrows problem down to that one component (start switch).

 

Look at the middle schematic, this one is configured for key on, transmission in neutral.

 

Clip the Positive lead of the voltmeter to the positive battery terminal. Unhook the Blue/White (L/W) wire at the solenoid. Hook the negative lead of the voltmeter to the wire harness side of the connection. Press the start switch, you should see 12v (about) on voltmeter. If this is good, then the start switch is functioning well enough to pass the voltage reading through. There could still be an issue at start switch that is is corroded enough to not allow enough current to pass to pick the start relay.

 

Here is a link to how to clean the starter switch the better way. An alternative is to shoot spray cleaner in it and maybe it will start working.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=43027

 

Gary

[frankd]

Gary, I'm pretty sure that Dave was talking about the L/W wire from the solenoid, not the one to the start switch.

 

Dave---Measure the voltage (ground the negative meter lead) at the L/W wire to start pushbutton. You should have 12 volts with the button released, and zero volts when you push the button.

 

There are several relays in the headlight bucket, and you need to make sure you have the correct one. It should have 2 L/W wires, 1 R/W (Red with white stripe), and 1 B/W (black with yellow stripe). You should have 12 volts on the R/W wire, and almost zero (actually about .6 volts) on the B/Y. You also should have 12 V on both L/W wires until you push the start button, and then both should go to zero.

 

Let me know what you read and I'll tell you what's wrong.

 

Frank D.

[hdroyer]

I had the same problem muffin man helped me out, it was the fuse connection to the starter circuit. Showed 12V but not enough amps to start put an inline fuse no more problem. To check the circuit use a piece of wire to bypass the fuse, if fuse connection is bad it should start.

[frankd]

Dale,

 

The 83's and the 84&5's are wired different, so this won't be the problem here.

 

Frank D.

[uthpda]

OK, I am confused now...

At the switch/button...

I have the following

red/yellow - 12v

blue/black - 12v which drop with button pushed in

blue/white - nothing

black - nothing

 

I have found two relays in the headlight bucket (and the turn/signal unit)

One is blue with a plastic relay with the following wires

Blue/white

Red/white -12v

Black white

Black

 

The other is red with a metal relay with the following wires

red/white - 12V

red/white - 12v

Blue/black

Blue/green - 12V

Pressing the switch does nothing

 

SOOO, I have looked and looked and see no other relays, am I missing something or are the colors not right? What should I check next?

[frankd]

Your findings on the starter pushbutton....There are 2 switches in the pushbutton, one to turn off the headlight while cranking, and another that picks up the starter solenoid. The voltage you measure is on the headlight half. On the other half, you have a black, which is ground (and measures zero volts) and the blue/white, which should have 12 volts on it...our first clue.

 

The two relays you found appear to be the Fan relay and the Sidestand relay. There are at least 2 more relays you haven't found. The 84 circuit diagram shows the one we're looking for is on the 'Flasher relay Assembly' and it has 2 relays ---starting circuit cutoff relay, and the flasher relay. It also has the canceling unit (for the turn signals) on it. I have no idea exactly where it's located because the only Venture I've taken completely apart and put together is an 83, and that doesn't have the same wiring and relays. You're looking for a device that has 3 boxes on it, and it'll be in the headlight bucket somewhere. You're looking for a relay that has a Red/White, a Black/Yellow, and 2 Blue/white wires. We need to measure those voltages because it's looking like your Starting circuit cutoff relay is bad!!

 

Anybody know where the Flasher Relay Assembly is located??

 

Frank D.

[dingy]

Here is a couple of pictures of Starting Relay Assy. This box contains the starting relay, the flasher & cancelling relays. 10 pin connector going into it.

 

About the size of a pack of cigarettes.

 

Below reference to L/W wire is the one at the solenoid. If bike cranks when grounding the solenoid side of this connection, it is a start switch or related wiring problem.

 

The problem would seem to be that if you can get bike to run by jumping the L/W wire to ground that the start switch is not closing and completing the circuit to ground and picking the start relay up. You are only bypassing one component and its associated wiring by jumping L/W wire to ground. This narrows problem down to that one component (start switch).

 

 

 

Gary

[uthpda]

OOOOHHHH, the light comes on! I thought that all that it held was the flasher and cancellation unit. Feel a little silly now!

 

I checked things and I have

L/W 12v with no change with the switch

L/W with nothing

R/W with 12v

B/Y nothing

 

So what do you think now? switch or relay...or do i need to test some other test?

Edited December 5, 2011 by uthpda

[dingy]

I have mislead you about grounding the L/W wire and the bike will crank, I'm sorry !!!

See my comments in red, hope they are correct this time !!

Gary

 

OOOOHHHH, the light comes on! I thought that all that it held was the flasher and cancellation unit. Feel a little silly now!

 

I checked things and I have

L/W 12v with no change with the switch (Does this reading change when yiu cycle the engine kill switch)

L/W with nothing (Check with ohm meter to ground, key off, you should see a change when start switch is pressed 0 ohms)

R/W with 12v (This is curious, this R/W is ties through the starter solenoid coil to the L/W you have the 12V on, you should read the 12V here)

B/Y nothing (Check with ohm meter to ground, key off, you should see a change when clutch is pulled in with side stand up, 0 ohms)

 

So what do you think now? switch or relay...or do i need to test some other test?

[uthpda]

ok,

the L/W with 12v does change to 0 with enginge kill switch

the L/W without 12v does read 0ohm when starter button hit

B/Y 0ohms with clutch

 

the R/W is 12v (actually 11.67 and goes up slighty when button pressed to 11.75 a does the L/W)

 

any thoughts?

 

Sent from my Full Android using Tapatalk

[dingy]

ok,

the L/W with 12v does change to 0 with enginge kill switch (This indicates positve side of starting circuit relay energised as it should be)

the L/W without 12v does read 0ohm when starter button hit (indicates at least decent continuity through start switch)

B/Y 0ohms with clutch (indicates negative side of starting circuit relay energised as it should be)

 

the R/W is 12v (actually 11.67 and goes up slighty when button pressed to 11.75 a does the L/W) (this is as it should be, depending on battery voltage)

 

any thoughts?

 

Sent from my Full Android using Tapatalk

 

See comments above in red

 

Next thing to check would be continuity through the starting circuit cut off relay(SCCOR). This is going to be as clear as mud as mum used to say.

 

Since there is the 10 pin connector going into the Flasher relay assy, I am not comfy saying check from this pin to this pin. Look at the harness connector that plugs into this assembly. From schematics, it looks like the R/W & B/Y wire is the coil circuit for SCCOR.

 

Unplug harness from SCCOR and put an Ohm meter across these 2 pins on the SCCOR. You should read around 100 ohms( may be up to 200 ohms. 0 ohms & infinite are bad). If you do read 100 ohms, this means coil is probably good.

 

Put one jumper (clip lead) from 12V+ to the R/W terminal, Put another jumper (clip lead) from 12V- to the B/Y terminal. You should hear a faint click when coil energizes. You may not though, this is relay is buried in this assembly, next check will confirm it is working or not.

 

 

Next there are 2 L/W wires in this same harness connector. Put ohm meter across these 2 L/W wires, it should read 0 ohms, disconnect one of the battery clip leads and it should go to infinite.

 

 

Be careful the the energised leads in the tight space, ain't easy I know.

 

Report back on this.

 

 

Gary

[frankd]

Dingy, a long message from a 'droid!!!! What is TapTalk??

 

Put one jumper (clip lead) from 12V+ to the R/W terminal, Put another jumper (clip lead) from 12V- to the B/Y terminal. You should hear a faint click when coil energizes. You may not though, this is relay is buried in this assembly, next check will confirm it is working or not.

 

Or cycle the KILL switch while holding your other hand on the Flasher Assy.===you should feel it click as the coil is energized and released.

 

I'd say you have 2 possibilities. 1. You have a bad connection at the connector. Slide it on and off a few times and see if that cures your problem. 2. The SCCOR relay has an open coil or bad contacts and you have to replace the Flasher relay ASSY. You've got the proper voltages to pick up the coil, but the contacts are still open. You should have 12 volts on both blue/white wires.

 

 

I just went out to the garage and with the bike (89) in neutral, I can hear 2 relays close when I turn the key on (SCCOR and sidestand relay). When I put it in gear and the sidestand is down, I can hear only one relay pick up (SCCOR). If you'd rather, you can turn the key on and rock the kill switch, it acts the same. (oops....I just remembered 83's are different than 84 & 85's which are different from MkII's.....The MkII's have a seperate SCCOR which may make more noise when they pick up. You may not hear your's pick up, but you should feel it though.)

 

 

Frank D.

Edited December 6, 2011 by frankd

[dingy]

Dingy, a long message from a 'droid!!!! What is TapTalk??

 

Frank D.

 

Frank,

 

I have an Iphone with Taptalk app on it, but I haven't sent a message yet that I know I did.

 

All my replys here have been through PC.

 

uthpda sent messages using taptalk

 

Gary

[uthpda]

Will try that when I head home for lunch today and let you know what the results are.

 

 

 

BTW - taptalk is an app for Android for message boards, I use it on my tablet. It is easier to carry to the garage than the laptop and my daughter was playing games on the laptop.