I hate brakes..constant pressure issue..any ideas

[chocking]

Last winter, I was simply going to put new rotors on and replace my brake pads on my 83 VR. I got the wonderful idea to rebuild my calipers..( which really were not bad) as long as I was at it...Ever since then, my rear/left front brakes have been a nightmare...

 

First bleeding them was a nightmare, but eventually got them satisfactory...but every now and then the rear pedal would get soft. I'd re bleed it and it would get somewhat better.

The strange thing is as long as I was riding daily, it seemed okay...however, if I ever let the bike sit for much more than a week, I would have zero pressure and could not pump it up....fluid level is always fine in rear reservoir..

 

I'm obviously getting air somewhere, but how could that happen just sitting? Could it be a problem with seals on the calipers...I did have to split one of the calipers..( I know the mannual says never to do that,) but it seemed the only way to get one piston out.

I really do not feel like spending all winter redoing brakes again.. it's darn messy job ...and i still prefer the integrated vs delinked brakes on this particular bike.

 

Any great words of wisdom or ideas...

 

Thanks

Clay

[Yammer Dan]

Did you pull and clean the rear master?

[chocking]

Dan

No I did not take the rear master out yet...was thinking about possibly having to rebuild that this winter, but would that cause this type of problem?

[Gearhead]

I'm having a similar problem on my 87, pretty sure it's the rear MC. I'm gonna order a rebuild kit from Skydoc.

 

Jeremy

[rstacy]

Dan

No I did not take the rear master out yet...was thinking about possibly having to rebuild that this winter, but would that cause this type of problem?

 

My car experience tells me that it is your master cylinder.

[Condor]

Last winter, I was simply going to put new rotors on and replace my brake pads on my 83 VR. I got the wonderful idea to rebuild my calipers..( which really were not bad) as long as I was at it...Ever since then, my rear/left front brakes have been a nightmare...

 

First bleeding them was a nightmare, but eventually got them satisfactory...but every now and then the rear pedal would get soft. I'd re bleed it and it would get somewhat better.

The strange thing is as long as I was riding daily, it seemed okay...however, if I ever let the bike sit for much more than a week, I would have zero pressure and could not pump it up....fluid level is always fine in rear reservoir..

 

I'm obviously getting air somewhere, but how could that happen just sitting? Could it be a problem with seals on the calipers...I did have to split one of the calipers..( I know the mannual says never to do that,) but it seemed the only way to get one piston out.

I really do not feel like spending all winter redoing brakes again.. it's darn messy job ...and i still prefer the integrated vs delinked brakes on this particular bike.

 

Any great words of wisdom or ideas...

 

Thanks

Clay

 

Could be your just not getting all the air out of the line leading up to the front caliper. On the later 1300 models Y installed an extra bleader valve at the top of the hump by the triple tree. There was always a problem bleeding the early 1200's. I have found that installing Speed-Bleeders let you pump the pedal without having to build pressure, and move the fluid faster thru the line to get the air out. A lot easier, and a one man job. You may also be sucking air into the lines by using old crush washers?? But they'd also be leaking...

[greg_in_london]

Odd - it's not a problem I've come across. (I delinked mine years ago ..)

 

As a wild stab in the dark, there must be a leak.

 

If it was in the calipers or at their joints, it would be below the reservoir and more likely to siphon fluid out.

 

That suggests to me that air is leaking in, somewhere in the run up to the headstock. A damaged union joint at that silly restrictor valve by the coils possibly ?

 

That's where I'd start looking anyway.

 

Is there anything that would show up a brake fluid leak I wonder ? Talc ? One of those liquids that change colour near a gas leak ? It should at least be weeping under pressure if the hole lets air in.

 

Did you undo the brake hoses from that junction at the time ?

[mmaleney]

Try bleeding with everything hot will make the oil/ air run faster

[Yammer Dan]

I have taken those masters apart and cleaned them several times with success. Saying that might get me called stupid again but if you are carefull you can take it apart and clean it carefully and make it work. Just watch what you are doing. You know to treat the seals carefully but clean them good. Be carefull not to overfill it when you put it back togather. Thr Proportioning valve is with the master. Do them all at the same time. Getting it in ond out is a pain but doable if you take your time. New crush washers would be good if you had them. I don't change them everytime I get in there. Whole job can be done in couple hrs.

[dingy]

and i still prefer the integrated vs delinked brakes on this particular bike.

 

Any great words of wisdom or ideas...

 

Thanks

Clay

What are you basing the preference of the linked brakes to the delinked brakes on? Have you rode a 1st gen Venture with delinked brakes?

 

I have very good condition, delinked brakes on my 83, they are an MKII size front rotors (298mm), quad piston R1 calipers from a 2001 donor (MKII forks). The rear is a 298mm MKII front rotor with a VMax dual piston caliper.

 

I had the opportunity to ride an MKII Venture a couple of weeks ago with standard, linked brakes on it. The difference was beyond amazing. The standard brake setup has nowhere near the stopping power of the delinked system, in my opinion.

 

The majority of a bikes stopping power is in the front end, at least 60%. Again, in my opinion, I am able to control the bike with primarily front brake application. If I am out riding on twisty roads and need any deceleration beyond engine braking, I will only use front brakes. My usage of rear brakes is very minimal. I will use them on hard, straight line stops where extra braking is needed, but am an avid engine braking user. Also use them somewhat in stop & go traffic.

 

I am not a fan of the linked brake system for one major reason. With the linked brakes, you are always forced to use the front end braking of the bike. There are a couple of situations where front braking is not desired, even when coupled with the rear. 1st would be intersections during wet weather, the oil deposited at these intersections is very slick. 2nd is on any type of loose road surface, gravel or dirt mainly. With either of these conditions use of front brake can cause loss of tire grip and can put a rider down with no chance of recovery. With delinked brakes, you can use only the rear brake which will allow more control of the bike. This is not saying a rear wheel slid is harmless, but it can be recovered from far easier than a front wheel slide.

 

I have been riding stuff with 2 wheels for nearly 50 years now and the two Ventures are the only bikes I have had with a linked system. 1st one, I did not have knowledge of delinking, this one is delinked and I am able to control bike much better.

 

These 2 Venture have been my only foray into this style bike. Last one before Ventures was a Yamaha XS1100, which was a fairly high performance bike. There have been a bunch of 750 bikes of several models. What this implies is, I have a fair amount of experience with some decent running bikes and how they normally handle.

 

With all the above typing though, I am not sure if the linked bike may not be a better option for someone that may be more of a touring type rider. That is certainly up to the individual and how comfortable they are. The delinked front brakes with good pads are more than capable of being locked up in a panic situation, they do require feathering application for safe usage. This is something that you may learn from watching a video or taking a riding course, but when something bad happens in front of you, there is no time for thought, it is just experience that kicks in and makes the difference.

 

Gary

[chocking]

I have thought about delinking the brakes with braided lines from sky doc, but wouldn't that require getting a different/large front reservoir? How much work is the process of changing from the linked on an 83 to a delinked...where would be the location of the splitter for the two front be located..It's hard enough to get to the valve up near the steering head to loosen the connection at the neck..

 

I want decent brakes again and simply am tired of the hassle....but if it's just the rear MC it might be just doing that fix....would a bad rear MC allow air in??

[CrazyHorse]

What are you basing the preference of the linked brakes to the delinked brakes on? Have you rode a 1st gen Venture with delinked brakes?

 

I have very good condition, delinked brakes on my 83, they are an MKII size front rotors (298mm), quad piston R1 calipers from a 2001 donor (MKII forks). The rear is a 298mm MKII front rotor with a VMax dual piston caliper.

 

I had the opportunity to ride an MKII Venture a couple of weeks ago with standard, linked brakes on it. The difference was beyond amazing. The standard brake setup has nowhere near the stopping power of the delinked system, in my opinion.

 

The majority of a bikes stopping power is in the front end, at least 60%. Again, in my opinion, I am able to control the bike with primarily front brake application. If I am out riding on twisty roads and need any deceleration beyond engine braking, I will only use front brakes. My usage of rear brakes is very minimal. I will use them on hard, straight line stops where extra braking is needed, but am an avid engine braking user. Also use them somewhat in stop & go traffic.

 

I am not a fan of the linked brake system for one major reason. With the linked brakes, you are always forced to use the front end braking of the bike. There are a couple of situations where front braking is not desired, even when coupled with the rear. 1st would be intersections during wet weather, the oil deposited at these intersections is very slick. 2nd is on any type of loose road surface, gravel or dirt mainly. With either of these conditions use of front brake can cause loss of tire grip and can put a rider down with no chance of recovery. With delinked brakes, you can use only the rear brake which will allow more control of the bike. This is not saying a rear wheel slid is harmless, but it can be recovered from far easier than a front wheel slide.

 

I have been riding stuff with 2 wheels for nearly 50 years now and the two Ventures are the only bikes I have had with a linked system. 1st one, I did not have knowledge of delinking, this one is delinked and I am able to control bike much better.

 

These 2 Venture have been my only foray into this style bike. Last one before Ventures was a Yamaha XS1100, which was a fairly high performance bike. There have been a bunch of 750 bikes of several models. What this implies is, I have a fair amount of experience with some decent running bikes and how they normally handle.

 

With all the above typing though, I am not sure if the linked bike may not be a better option for someone that may be more of a touring type rider. That is certainly up to the individual and how comfortable they are. The delinked front brakes with good pads are more than capable of being locked up in a panic situation, they do require feathering application for safe usage. This is something that you may learn from watching a video or taking a riding course, but when something bad happens in front of you, there is no time for thought, it is just experience that kicks in and makes the difference.

 

Gary

 

Agreed 100% Dont care for linking either. ABS is a better option in my opinion. I find peg style bikes harder to lock the rear then I do forward board type bikes with the huge car like pedal.

Edited September 30, 2011 by CrazyHorse

[Gearhead]

I have thought about delinking the brakes with braided lines from sky doc, but wouldn't that require getting a different/large front reservoir? How much work is the process of changing from the linked on an 83 to a delinked...where would be the location of the splitter for the two front be located..It's hard enough to get to the valve up near the steering head to loosen the connection at the neck..

 

I just had a PM conversation with Skydoc about this. This is what he sent me:

I offer a 4 line, Braided Stainless Steel line set, with a specially machined VMAX splitter and S.S. Adapter Bracket, that allows you to delink the front and rear brakes....The De-Link Kit can be used with your stock calipers, and Master Cylinders. This is the set up I use on my 87'VR. This kit comes with complete written instructions, and can be installed in an afternoon with a few hand tools.

 

I'll let you ask him for the price.

 

Jeremy

[dingy]

What you should do to the bike depends on how much you want to spend and how good of brakes you want. There is such a thing as to much brakes on a bike. Ask the RSV guys about the touchy rear brake that have, Rick Butler makes a kit to lessen the brakes from grabbing as an example.

 

If you really don't want delinked brakes, your quest for really good stopping ability is lessened somewhat.

 

Get a good set of calipers on the front end of the bike. MKI calipers are barely adequate. To do this you need to, at a minimum, replace the lower outer fork tubes with a set from an MKII. Reason being is the center to center spacing of the MKI forks caliper bolts is 80mm & the MKII's are 100mm. The 100mm spacing opens up a number of possibilities. 1st step is a set of quad piston MKII calipers. Next step is a set of Yamaha R1 calipers from about year 2000-2003 (known as blue dots). If you are a real fanatic, there is a VMax guy that make an adapter that will allow a set of 6 piston Hyabusi type calipers to be mounted. (Refer to previous comment about to much braking power here). When going to these better calipers, you will also need to change the front rotors from the 298mm rotors to the 282mm ones.

 

Get stainless steel brake lines. Not real expensive and well worth the money. New set can be gotten with 4 lines for under a $100.

 

If you have rotors off, get them glass beaded if possible (similar to sand blasting). This will remove any glazing that is on them.

 

Get a decent set of pads. With delinked brakes EBC HH pads are your best option. Not my preferred ones but will help with the linked brakes. They are a harder composition than I like. They are harsh on rotors.

 

Get rid of the hydraulic anti dives if you have them, about as useful as tits on a boar, especially if you have progressive springs in bike. Contact Earl (skydoc_17) for both these items if nothing else.

 

If you don't go with SS lines, at least get a line from the rear to the front that has the upper bleeder in it, it will make bleeding the linked brakes a little easier. (I have one off an 88 if interested)

 

Rear brake can be upgraded to an MKII with quad piston caliper and 320mm floating rotor. This takes a little McGyvering to do.

 

Rebuilding both masters is probably due on an 84.

 

Consider using DOT 4 synthetic fluid. Easier on paint if spilled and better temp range.

 

Depending if you like red or not, I have a set of 3 MKII calipers that were rebuilt last year. Powder coated red is downside. Good Kevlar EE pads in them. Also have rear rotor for the MKII setup. and if you want it, I will take the MKII rear master off my bike. I just got a brand new MKI master for rear, which will help my particular setup due to master caliper diameter. It was also rebuilt last year. The MKII master is better for linked brakes if they are upgraded to the quad piston calipers. Also have the rear caliper brake arm, which has been modified to work on an MKI. Have a SS line for the rear.

 

Gary

Edited September 30, 2011 by dingy

[greg_in_london]

I won't say that the standard front master cylinder can't cope with two calipers, because I haven't tried it on a Venture. I have tried it on other bikes, though, and a 1/2" / 13mm master cyclinder has never shifted enough fluid to operate two calipers effectively, not without the lever getting too close to the bar. The Venture operates an anti dive as well. If people have had good luck with the standard master cylinder, that is worth knowing. I waited until I had a larger bore one, off an XV or Virago maybe, I can't be sure, it was in a breaker's basket. It says the size underneath, 14mm or 5/8" and was made to bolt to bars at the right angle and it has done well for me.

 

Back to the original question though, is it possible that air leaked back in at that reducing valve thing near the headstock ?

[chocking]

I think my plan is going to be to talk to sky doc as soon as i get a chance and order the de-linked stainless steel setup if it seems that the original front master will work ...or see if i need to get a larger one from another bike....

 

and then also probably rebuild the rear MC.

 

I am wondering if when i rebuilt my calipers and had to split a couple of them,, if the little o rings between the fluid ports are the culprit...I know you are not supposed to split them, but ......live and learn maybe..

 

I'll look on the parts diagram to see if i can get those o rings

[dingy]

Splitting the calipers is done by at least myself & Skydoc.

 

Earl does it as part of his rebuild on calipers. It's the only way you can hone the bores. I have done it on about 6 calipers with no problems.

 

It isn't nearly as invasive as splitting the crankcase in half. Really nothing to it, other than the square cut o-rings are rare as chicken teeth.

 

Pictures below may cause my warranty to be void, but what the heck.

 

Gary

[CrazyHorse]

I didnt split the calipers when I rebuilt. I clamped off one side with the old pad steel - the pad then slowly used air to push out the other two but I also put something in the way so they dont shoot out. They both have to come out equaly if one pops out then your screwed and cant use air. Then when they are close to coming out you can grap them and work them out.

[chocking]

anyone have an idea where the little o rings in between the fluid ports between the calipers might be found?

[twigg]

When I refurbed my calipers they were too far gone for air to push out the pistons.

 

In the end I had to use a grease gun and pump them out. It works, it's messy, but grease is cheap.

 

I want to delink them, but there is a caveat.

 

The brakes I have are the standard '86VR set up, and they work. They stop the bike even well loaded and they stop it consistently and reliably every time during a 1000 mile day which included the hills and sharp curves of the Talimena Scenic Highway.

 

Even knowing that they do not fill me will unbridled confidence. I like the harder feel that SS lines give, on the front at least, and I do not like Yamaha telling me which brake I should be using. I am intelligent enough to be able to operate a pedal and a lever at the same time if I need to.

 

So they are going to be de-linked, and stainless hoses will go on the front, probably with R1 calipers.

 

The back is less of an issue. Properly set up it should be fine as it is but as I understand it the hose needs moving to the "front" outlet, with the original rear outlet blanking off. Is that correct?

 

I believe that the master cylinder has sufficient capacity for two calipers so I should end up with the following:

 

One front master cylinder with a double banjo and a braided steel hose running to each R1 caliper. No proportioning valves, splitters or other trickery needed.

 

One rear master cylinder with a braided hose from the front outlet to the caliper, because the rubber hose won't be long enough.

 

EBC HH pads all round and standard rotors.

 

Any problems with that?

[dingy]

The back is less of an issue. Properly set up it should be fine as it is but as I understand it the hose needs moving to the "front" outlet, with the original rear outlet blanking off. Is that correct?

 

I believe that the master cylinder has sufficient capacity for two calipers so I should end up with the following:

 

One front master cylinder with a double banjo and a braided steel hose running to each R1 caliper. No proportioning valves, splitters or other trickery needed.

 

One rear master cylinder with a braided hose from the front outlet to the caliper, because the rubber hose won't be long enough.

 

EBC HH pads all round and standard rotors.

 

Any problems with that?

 

You do not have to use the front line port on the rear master. Simply take the valve parts out of the proportioning valve on the rear master, very easy to do. The brass colored part and the spring in picture get removed, this is proportioning valve that is on rear master.

 

What you propose to do by running both lines to the master is doable. Another easy option is to get a VMax front splitter. they are on ebay often for about $10. This will mount to the fork lower triple tree easily.

 

Look at your front master cylinder and see if there is 14mm on the casting, lower rear left side, should be on your bike. If there is, master will work.

 

Gary

[twigg]

Thanks Gary ... Helpful as ever

 

That will save the cost of a braided rear hose .... In any event, I actually prefer to leave the rear slightly "softer" as it is a lot more forgiving that way.

[dingy]

anyone have an idea where the little o rings in between the fluid ports between the calipers might be found?

 

 

Attached is a fluid compatibility chart. The material has to be primary determining factor in the O-Ring selection. You can't use one that you find at a hardware store without be sure it won't degrade with brake fluid usage. It isn't going to show being bad in the garage, it going to blow out when you are applying the brakes at a most inopportune time.

 

I have reused the original ones every time and never had a leaker.

 

Gary

 

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af193/gdingy101/brakefluidchoice1.jpg

[greg_in_london]

Just curious - were the specs for DOT 4 and DOT5.1 synthetic not available ?

 

I know a lot of you still use DOT3 over there, but over here the higher spec of DOT 4 (and synthetic variations of 5/5.1) mean no-one bothers stocking it (or looking for it).

[dingy]

Just curious - were the specs for DOT 4 and DOT5.1 synthetic not available ?

 

I know a lot of you still use DOT3 over there, but over here the higher spec of DOT 4 (and synthetic variations of 5/5.1) mean no-one bothers stocking it (or looking for it).

Not really sure why it isn't on the chart, but the DOT 4 is compatible with DOT 3 applications, so material choices should match. Even if DOT 4 were usable with a wider range of materials, I would not use something that was not compatible with DOT 3. Potential next owner of a bike may go back to DOT 3.

 

DOT 4 is easy to find, DOT 5 & 5.1 are not seen very often.

 

Gary