How much stopping power?

[Gearhead]

Not to argue linked brakes or not, just to relay my experience. Mine is an 87 VR, stock brakes except for the HH pads on the front brake that operates by its lonesome with the lever. FWIW, I believe the earlier 1200's had different sized brake pads and possibly calipers.

 

I had to get used to the linked brakes to be sure, as my habit was very lever-heavy and pedal-light. On the VR I need to use much more pedal of course. I did install the HH pads as mentioned above on the one rotor only to enhance the front-braking performance of the lever alone, which did help with lever response.

 

I have partially locked both wheels (not at the same time, thank God). Both in panic stops, naturally. The rear happened on surface streets, traffic suddenly came to a stop (me obviously not paying enough attention), I jumped on the brakes, evidently too much on the pedal and the rear did start to slide. Releasing some pedal pressure fixed it.

 

The front experience was on the freeway - 75 mph - very scary - just last month (HH pads on that one rotor at this point). Again, traffic suddenly slowed to about 25, and I didn't see soon enough (well, technically I did see soon enough, but not soon enough to avoid the drama). Again I jumped on the brakes. I remember a lot of stuff that all happened in a very short time. I didn't think I was gonna make it (those taillights were coming up WAY fast) so I was scoping out the LH shoulder and steering in that direction. I noticed the front starting to slide, so I must have let off the lever a bit because it stopped sliding. Somewhere in there the front started to do the worst wobble-dance I've ever felt. Usually at high speed I only get a slight whole-bike-weave, and the front-wheel-wobble only happens at lower speeds (of course I had scrubbed off some speed by then). Also, the front-end wobble only occurs with no hands on the bars, and ANY hand pressure on the grips stops it cold. Not this time. I had both hands with a death grip and the thing felt like it was near tank-slapping, although it may not have actually been quite that bad. Somewhere in there I realized I had enough stopping distance, so I backed off on the brakes some, held the bars as tight as I could, and it finally calmed down. I started out going probably 75 or 80, and ended up going maybe 25, so this all happened pretty fast.

 

Anyway, the point is, I have experienced each wheel partially locking at some point.

 

Jeremy

[Guest KitCarson]

Here is something I ran into. I have my new MSF instructors manual and have been studying it. Going to take the course this fall......this article is on WEB Bike World........so what is wrong....what do some of you see that is total Bull?

 

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			More: Motorcycle Safety Page | Technical Articles Page This information was originally published in the New Zealand Motorcycle Safety Consultants Megarider eNewsletterPublished by the: New Zealand Motorcycle Safety Consultants Level 1, Costa Mora P O Box 26-036, Rokewa Way, Newlands, Johnsonville, Wellington. New Zealand CEO: Allan Kirk nzmscon@paradise.net.nz You can subscribe to the Megarider eNewsletter: Send an email to nzmscon@paradise.net.nz with a request to go on the mailing list. 1. Which brake is the most effective? The front brake is the most effective, giving between 60 & 80% of the bike's stopping power in hard stops, depending upon surface conditions. This is because most of the weight of the bike and rider transfers forward onto the front wheel when the brakes are applied. A common example of weight transfer is when you trip on a gutter - your feet stop but momentum keeps the top of you going and you fall flat on your face. The weight transfer that takes place under braking on a motorcycle pushes the front wheel onto the ground and makes it grip very well.   2. Is the front wheel likely to skid if you apply the front brake hard? No. The front wheel is likely to skid uncontrollably and bring you down only if you jam the front brake on hard. If you apply the front brake in a staged (progressive) process, the front wheel may skid but that skid is normally quite controllable.   3. Is the rear wheel likely to skid if you apply the brakes hard? With most of the weight being on the front wheel, the rear wheel tends to be light under braking and will therefore lock up and skid very easily.   4. How do you control a rear wheel skid? Control of a rear wheel skid is easy. Just keep your eyes up to the horizon and look where you WANT to go (not necessarily where you are actually going) and the bike will skid in a controllable manner with a minimum of fishtailing. Basic and advanced braking techniques are best learnt under controlled conditions rather than when a truck pulls out on you! Your local motorcycle school will run a fun braking exercise session for you and some mates if you care to call the school and arrange it.   5. Is braking a natural skill? Braking, as with any riding skill, is a learned skill, not a natural one. This means you must practice the correct braking skills enough to make them an instinctive reaction before you can be sure that you will do the right things in an emergency. Overseas research has shown that, because of panic overpowering the rider's conscious reactions, nearly a third of all riders do absolutely nothing in an accident situation: they don't even apply the brakes! If, however, your high level braking skills are so well learnt that they are instinctive, you will do it right, no matter what the situation. However, this requires you to do a lot of high level braking skill practice, the skills will not come with normal everyday riding.   6. Is there a special braking technique that ensures that a rider will get the best out of a motorcycle's brakes? Yes. The process is called STAGED BRAKING and it involves the rider applying the motorcycle's brakes in a staged process. This gives the rider predictable, progressive braking.   7. In an emergency do we concentrate on using staged braking on both front and back brakes?   This is a controversial subject. Some experienced riders reckon that, even in an emergency when research has shown that panic tends to decrease your riding skills, they can apply the back brake perfectly with no loss of braking on the front. Well, research has shown that the average rider can only properly concentrate on the use of one brake in an emergency so, unless you think you're road motorcycling's equivalent of a top motorcycle racer, we would suggest that you concentrate on getting the best out of one brake. Of the front and rear brake on a motorcycle, the one to concentrate on in an emergency is the front brake because if you get that one wrong, lock it up and don't correct that problem then you're going to crash.. According to the American Motorcycle Safety Foundation, if you try to get the best out of both brakes in an emergency, you will get the best out of neither. The MSF says you can't concentrate FULLY on both brakes at one time. You know your mother's old nag, "You can't concentrate on two things at one time"! So, to get the best braking, you have to concentrate using either the front or the back brake and, since the front brake gives up to 80% of your braking power and incorrect application is likely to make you fall off, it makes sense to concentrate on the front brake. The American Motorcycle Safety Foundation teaches their instructors that "in an emergency braking situation you should apply the back brake hard and let the back wheel slide if it wants to. This way you can concentrate on what is happening up front; there's enough to think about in the use of the front brake."   8. So how should I apply the rear brake? Apply it and forget about it. Let the back wheel skid if necessary. Concentrate on using staged braking to harness the superior power of the front brake to save your life.   9. Is Staged Braking difficult to learn? Given practice, the skill is not difficult to learn. The best way to learn it is to start off with a four stage application of the front brake. Later you can increase the number of stages to make your braking more and more progressive, if you want to.   10.Can you explain four stage braking in practical terms? To understand four stage braking, think of a rider coming up to a set of lights. Stage One is the force with which he applies the front brake when he sees the lights turn orange some way ahead, in other words, lightly.   At Stage One, the rider is applying the front brake to the point where the brake is just on and slowing the bike down very, very gently to roll to a stop. Stage Two is the force the rider would use if he was a bit closer to the lights when they turned orange, and he had to make a normal, smooth stop at the lights. So, Stage Two is the firm pull used to bring the bike to a firm, but quiet stop. The rider applies his front brake to Stage One (friction point) before going on to apply to a steady force at Stage Two. Stage Three. Our rider has dithered about whether to stop for the orange light before deciding he'd better. By this time, he has to stop quite hard to stop. So he applies the front brake to friction point (Stage One), then onto a firm pull (Stage Two) before applying pressure with a strong pull at Stage Three. Stage Four. The rider very unwisely decides to run the orange only to find, just before he reaches the lights, that they turn red. In this serious situation the rider needs all the braking he's got. So he applies the front brake to friction point, moves onto the firm pull of Stage Two, then to the strong pull of Stage Three, before giving it all he's got at Stage Four.   11. If you "give it all you've got" on the front brake at Stage Four, won't you get front wheel lockup? Possibly but by using the staged braking process, by the time the tyre gets to the point of locking up at Stage Four, the weight has transferred forward onto the front wheel and any tendency of the front tyre to lose grip is both easily sensed and controlled, unlike a front wheel skid caused by a tyre locking up when the brake is jammed on hard while weight is moving around on the bike under weight transfer. With correct use of the Four Stage process, controlling a front wheel skid is simply a matter of keeping the wheel steering straight ahead as you relax pressure on the front brake to allow the wheel to revolve again and regain grip.   12. What will happen if the front wheel locks and I don't relax some pressure? You'll fall off as the wheel will eventually tuck under and the bike (and you) will fall down.   13. How good can you get at emergency braking? In emergency stops, expert riders are capable of controlling a front wheel skid by releasing pressure on the front brake just enough to get that wheel turning again without actually letting the brake right off. This requires considerable sensitivity on the brakes and the only way you will gain this sort of sensitivity is to practice. At the NZMSC higher level Megarider sessions, the way the instructors tell if the pupil has reached a suitable standard is whether they can hear the front tyre chattering as the tyre grips at the point of adhesion during emergency stops.   14. Is a bald tyre a liability when braking? A treadless tyre will quite adequately handle braking stresses on a perfect road surface. The trouble is that perfect road surfaces are more than rare - they're virtually extinct. Tyre tread acts like a broom, sweeping debris, dirt, gravel and water etc off the road surface in order that the tyre can grip the road. The tread on a sensibly ridden motorcycle can comfortably handle most foreign matter on a road surface - with the possible exception of oil (especially diesel oil), thick mud, and smooth wet paint. But link a bald tyre with foreign matter on the road surface and throw in braking stresses for good measure, and the crash will resound throughout the neighbourhood.   15. How should I brake on slippery and loose surfaces. Carefully but not timidly. The secret to good braking on poor surfaces is observation. If you know what's under your wheels you can tailor your braking to the surface. So, keep an eye on the road surface. If you cross a slippery surface under strong braking the front wheel may lock. This is why riders who brake late and hard for orange or red lights often spill off - into the middle of the intersection. The fall occurs because the rider fails to ease the front brake as the front wheel crosses the white line that crosses the lanes at the edge of the intersection. Then the front wheel breaks loose under braking on the slippery surface, the rider panics and freezes, and he and his bike head groundwards... The basic requirements for braking on a loose surface such as gravel are the same as those applying to braking on a sealed surface. The difference is that you must observe the requirements more strictly on gravel. You must brake in plenty of time, preferably brake while upright and in a straight line (any braking while leaned over in gravel is extremely hazardous), use both brakes very progressively, carefully interpret the noise from the front and rear tyre while braking to detect and counteract any wheel lock-up, know your road surface, and take particular care when braking on gradients, inclines, and heavy cambers.     Email address: nzmscon@paradise.net.nz New Zealand Motorcycle Safety Consultants http://www.megarider.com You can subscribe to the Megarider eNewsletter: Send an email to nzmscon@paradise.net.nz with a request to go on the mailing list.

wBW Home | Terms and Conditions and Privacy Policy | Site Info - Contact Info | December 26, 2007December 25, 2007 Text and Photographs Copyright © webWorld International, LLC - 2001-2007. All rights reserved.

[CrazyHorse]

Good stuff Kit. Only thing I would add is a proper downshift and look for a safe area to escape. Oops, I said I would shut up in this post. Someones got to hold me down.

[Guest KitCarson]

Yea.....me too:rotfl::rotfl:I had fully planned to shut up......but there it was again!! The thing I disagree with is to hammer the rear brake and let the bike slide.....and the fact the article states MSF has determined we, us riders cannot chew gum and walk at the same time......can only use one brake.......the manual does not state this. It states to use both brakes in a progressive manner.......this was an example to show how things get in articles , get repeated.....till they become fact.....that was my intent. Just like the first safety class I went to in the military.....we were instructed to stay off the front brake.........but then I cannot read the writers mind....if he is dealing with demonstration speeds 35 mph or so....okay, a real slide is okay......at higher speeds.........well I hope you have been living right.

[hipshot]

and my "main man" , jumps in front of the bus ,,,,,,,,yet again!

i love it!

just jt

[Orrin]

I just gotta jump in the lake and swim with you guys on these braking isssues. I am following this thread with great interest.

 

I too, wish the Venture/RSTD had linked ABS brakes. I am not a racer and never will be. I seriously doubt weather I can correct 50 years of using the right foot hard when in an emergency braking situation...just don't think I can do it. I wll be practicing this spring when I can get back on the bike again. We have a couple of large parking lots where I can practice...just wish there was a hospital or ambulance near by in case I practice too good.

 

I think someone could make a small fortune if they could come out with a kit to:

 

1. Link brakes on heavy cruisers.

2. Aftermarket easily installed ABS kit.

 

I know that I would buy it.

 

PS I hope you all had a Merry Christmas

[GeorgeS]

Only thing I can add to all this is " Practice makes Prefect "

 

And, Don't tail gate !

 

In heavy traffic try to stay close to your Planned escape route.

 

 

And, don't Stop at any " Biker Bars " !!!

[Guest KitCarson]

I just gotta jump in the lake and swim with you guys on these braking isssues. I am following this thread with great interest.

 

I too, wish the Venture/RSTD had linked ABS brakes. I am not a racer and never will be. I seriously doubt weather I can correct 50 years of using the right foot hard when in an emergency braking situation...just don't think I can do it. I wll be practicing this spring when I can get back on the bike again. We have a couple of large parking lots where I can practice...just wish there was a hospital or ambulance near by in case I practice too good.

 

I think someone could make a small fortune if they could come out with a kit to:

 

1. Link brakes on heavy cruisers.

2. Aftermarket easily installed ABS kit.

 

I know that I would buy it.

 

PS I hope you all had a Merry Christmas

Hi Orrin.......Happy New Year......hope your collar bone is better. Happy New Year to the rest of you trouble makers too!!!

 

Well ABS/linked brakes are on the way.........Actually ABS brakes are also linked brakes on all the bikes I have seen that have them. They all work similar.....what they do is using our Ventures for an example, is if you hit the front brake it actuates like one piston in the rear caliper and maybe two to three of them in the front. The rear brake will actuate what is left. So yes ABS is also linked and naturally has the computer that controls them by releasing and actuation with a computer chip.

 

All these so called expert motorcycle riders/experts some of them are putting down ABS brake systems........seems to be human nature !!!

 

They say ABS brakes are no good.......that ABS increases stopping power, okay I agree.......but all these idiots left their common sense in a sack....and I honestly do not think many of these so called experts have ever rode a bike!! The plain fact is ABS allows you to actually stop faster, because you can use them to the maximum without slipping a wheel......it is a no brainer.....you can really use ABS brakes to the max........so I just ignore these experts I see write articles in the bike magazines.

 

So ABS brakes are on the way.........all the bikes are coming out with them on new models......The Wing.....BMW.....Harley........even some of Yamahas sport bikes have them......

 

As for an aftermarket ABS Kit........be hard to do.......every model bike has a differerent frame.........bigger or smaller.......so many factors to that....so to make a universal one would not be possible.......to do tooling and set up for each model would cost lots of dollars.......I think that is the hold up on that.......even I can comprehend the computer chip part of it.....and I am the one who this forum was just convinced to go get a GPS!!! I am not a computer or electronics Guru at all..........it is the variables in manufacture that stops the aftermarket.........and also would be the liability of people buying them and self installation.....uh oh!!!

 

But ABS is on the way..........I love my Venture.....it is the best bike I have ever had, so I will ride her and enjoy it.......but if Yamaha does come out with a new one with ABS.......I will have one at my house, just as soon as they can get it off the train. ABS brakes are a life saver........no matter what resistant old timers say......and all those expert magazine riders say!!

[Guest KitCarson]

Oh forgot.......the brake practice stuff........there is always one in the crowd, been awhile since I helped with a class......but always try to hammer that guy first off......remember when you first took your motorcycle license test? And the state trooper or whomever was giving you the test told you to accelerate your bike to 30 to 35 mph and hit the rear brake and make a panic stop?

There is a lot of experience and knowledge in the reason for that......at that speed........the bike will just slide a short way, so anyone who has enough balance to raise one foot off the ground and sit on the bike will be okay......just do not exceed those speeds in practice.......take it easy. Practice is for practice...not to kill yourself......or tear up your bike. What it does is just set a means into place for you to develop good habits. To use both brakes in a progressive manner and learn the feel of the bike......its limitations and yours.......very valuable stuff...........you do not have to be a racer or a dare devil.......just slow and easy........the goal is to develop correct braking skills.......develop them.......practice them.....and you will find yourself doing this all the time..........yes you have to consciously make yourself change your mindset.......think about it all the time at first......but soon........it becomes automatic.

All it does is provide training and experience........so that one day, when things go wrong you are better prepared. I am sure where you live there is a MSF instructor at one of the universities or Colleges.......if you want a little one on one......one afternoon when he has time......I am sure he would gladly help you out.........that is why those of us who get involved in that...do it.......there is no money in it!!! Try talking to one of those guys in your area........if you do not have time to take the course....I am sure they will take time to help you.........

[Gearhead]

Objections to the article:

 

He misspelled neighbourhood?

 

OK, I've never heard that locking the rear is a good thing. I've heard to either modulate both or forget you have the rear and just modulate the front. I think that would apply more on a sport bike, though. Ever seen a Venture do a Stoppie? I think tourers and cruisers generally leave more weight on the rear wheel (because they are long and have more weight), meaning the rear brake would be more effective, when compared to a sport bike which can literally lift the rear off the ground (no rear braking there)!

 

Jeremy

[Orrin]

Kit, thanks for the reply. Collar bone is coming along fine. Getting range of motion and strength back is also coming along but not as fast. I know that there will not be an after market ABS kit, but if there was I would buy it.

 

If they come out with an updated Venture or better yet RSTD with ABS I will be right with you buying the first ones out of the crate/"off the train".

 

Would save a lot of lives and injuries.

 

Kit, Happy New Year!!!!!!