How much stopping power?

[mark reed]

I have an 83 Venture.Should I be able to slide the rear wheel under full braking? I know it only has single piston calepers.I can put as mush pressure as I can on the petal and it stops pretty fast,but it wont slide.

[Condor]

I have an 83 Venture.Should I be able to slide the rear wheel under full braking? I know it only has single piston calepers.I can put as mush pressure as I can on the petal and it stops pretty fast,but it wont slide.

 

The first gens are supposed to work that way. Only about 20-25% of the braking power is applied to the rear brake. It goes a long way to keep you from high siding.....

[CrazyHorse]

You have linked brakes with a proportioning valve that limits how much fluid goes to rear brake. Your left front and rear are linked together through rear brake pedal.

[GeorgeS]

I have done some very heavy brakeing with my 89, never had the rear wheel lock up.

[Terry Richardson]

Ok, now you have me curious. When I squeeze my front brakes only on my 84 venture it never has the power to lock the wheel (not that I want it to) but thought it curious it wont stop the bike at a slower roll with front brake only. Is this normal?

[Squidley]

Ok, now you have me curious. When I squeeze my front brakes only on my 84 venture it never has the power to lock the wheel (not that I want it to) but thought it curious it wont stop the bike at a slower roll with front brake only. Is this normal?

 

The brakes on the 1200's are a bit performance restricted being only a single caliper. You have to remember also that when you apply the front brake lever it's only applying the right front caliper. Being that the rear and front left are linked together with the rear petal. I too found that the brakes were a little weak on my '84 for a bike that was well past the 800 lb. mark....so yes it's normal what you feel

[Guest KitCarson]

Relax and enjoy!!! I even went to the trouble of linking the 2nd gens brakes with several hoses held up with tie wraps just to see what would happen.....finally settled on Rick Butlers Brake Mod........there are many who would love to have the factory linked brakes on the new bikes........the way the 1st gen is set up is great....just right. It is an idea and great form of brakes......really do not know why they changed it......well I do......it is called lawsuits.........not getting into all that.......enjoy the brakes.....they are just about perfect in many opinions. Kit

[CrazyHorse]

I'm one of the oddballs here. I think the brakes on the 1300 leave alot to be desired IMHO. Never came close to locking them up either which is good but I think I'm leaving some stopping power on the table. I delinked mine since I personally dont care for that setup even put R1/R6 calipers on the front and use HH level pads. I still have the proportining valve on I may switch the position of the rear brake on the proportining valve to the old front position and see if I can gain any stopping power. I may also switch the front master cylinder to one with a bigger bore cylinder to gain even more.

[93 venture]

I have two friends who i do alot of riding with,one has a 2001 road king and the other has a 2003 kawasaki voager.at a yellow light i can stop with no problems, both of them are in the middle of the intersection smoking their rear tire off tring to stop.

as far as im concerned linked brakes are the way to go.If some day i ever advance to a 2nd gen,i will link the brakes.

[CrazyHorse]

I have two friends who i do alot of riding with,one has a 2001 road king and the other has a 2003 kawasaki voager.at a yellow light i can stop with no problems, both of them are in the middle of the intersection smoking their rear tire off tring to stop.

as far as im concerned linked brakes are the way to go.If some day i ever advance to a 2nd gen,i will link the brakes.

I ride a newer roadking on a regular basis much better stopping then my 1st Gen. The brakes on those are not linked. Sounds like your friends are hooked on rear brake stopping only (from the comment of smoking rear tire) your front brake does 80% of the work. Maybe check that out. Some people like linking which is fine. I personally don't for number of reasons I have stated here many times. I dont care for the bike telling me I have to stop both wheels every time. Linking is fine for straight on good surface panic stops wheres alot of people love to slam on that rear brake like a car. Having experiance with bike ABS I think thats a more worth while option on a bike then linked brakes. IMHO. Me I like more fine control over the bike. Thats just me. Funny the new Kawasaki Concours which is pretty techologically advanced, does not link the brakes I might get one of those. I dont blame guys like Kit and Freebird with 2nd Gen's modifying thier rear brakes if they are really touchy, (Never rode a 2nd Gen) locking up the rear is not a good thing especially at speed. I think if the Butler Mod helps great its a good idea. Myself I 'd just use the adjustable valve part but again thats me.

[Condor]

OK, I gotta say something. I read all this flap about stopping power and modifying braking systems, I can't believe it. The stopping power of any bike is directly related to the footprint of the tire. Big fat footprint.. lots of stopping power. Smaller footprint less stopping power. That's it. The trick is to apply as much resistance as you can without locking up the tire and loosing traction. Loose traction and you loose control. Don't use the rear brake and you're losing some braking, even if it's only a small amount. If that weren't the case they (the manufacturers) wouldn't even bother putting brakes on the rear of a bike. The fact that 2ndGens can lock up the rear very easily is something that will probably be dealt with by the manufacture in new model releases and ABS braking systems. The fact that 2ndGens experience greater braking power using the just the front linked calipers only stands to reason as they have double the friction applied to both rotors and a fatter stock tire. 1stGens only use one side when squeezing the hand lever. So I'm wondering what the problem is when comparing the two, or why any one would attempt to make the comparison in the first place. They're two different systems. The rear tire on the 1stGen doesn't lock up. Why?, because there is very little pressure applied to the rear caliper with the linked system. This doesn't mean that there isn't a small amount of traction left, and using it will give a little extra braking in a full blown panic stop. Will it make a big difference in the whole panic stop? Common sense says that even a little will help, especially when the front is locked up and your about ready to t-bone a "left hand Louie". Lock up the rear tire on a 2ndGen and your starting a chain of events that you may not be able to get out of. De linking the rear caliper on a 1stGen and you're eliminating a very small portion of your stopping power and increasing the possibility of locking up the rear ala a 2ndGen. Rick Butler has come up with a solution for 2ndGen bikes that essentially reverts the 2ndGen system back into a 1stGen system. Imagine still having that little bit of braking power and not high siding because of a rear wheel trying to get past the front of the bike. I might also add that it might be prudent to consider what a sharpie lawyer would do if after you had t-boned someone they found that you had modified the braking system. Chilling thought..... Just want to say that if I've offended anyone I apologize. I just got tired of people comparing Navels to Valencias.

[DANJ]

I just got tired of people comparing Navels to Valencias.

 

Jack,

 

You said, better than I could, just what I was thinking.

 

 

DJ

[CrazyHorse]

I might also add that it might be prudent to consider what a sharpie lawyer would do if after you had t-boned someone they found that you had modified the braking system. Chilling thought..... Just want to say that if I've offended anyone I apologize. I just got tired of people comparing Navels to Valencias.

 

Isnt modifying a 2nd Gen the same lawyer problem? I'm not trying to be a jerk about it. Most disagree with me and thats fine. I dont have a problem with it.

[Freebird]

Well...I've modified the brakes on my '99. I've installed the modulator valve that I got from Rick Butler and the TCB unit from Zach. I may have to deal with a lawyer someday but I hope not. I just know that the brakes are MUCH better now and I would rather prevent an accident, injury, even death....than worry about what some lawyer might think later.

[Guest KitCarson]

Well the lawyer thing" I have practiced a lot with the new brake installations, I have used the Rick Butler Mod and the TCB. Instead of the almost instant rear wheel lockup that was pretty much to be expected with just minimal use on the stock bike......now with practice, I know exactly when the brake will lock up.......and it is much smoother. Taking things further in explanation, two up.....these mods shine.......yes the performance to the rear wheel is very different.....but much better...two up.....they work very well.

Now suppose you were to get into a crash and did hurt someone in some kind of unfortunate accident, I really do not think anyone is even going to notice or even be concerned about there even being any brake modifications. Who will know or even think of this ?. If one keeps ones mouth shut?.

I also prefer to do whatever it takes to make the brakes work well, to protect myself and my wife. I really do not care what some lawyer might one day do to me.......if anyone even was to notice and bring this up, which I highly doubt. Yes I like the brake mods........prefer to do all I can to protect myself and mine.........really do not worry about what may occur one day in the maybe future.......hopefully nothing.....

 

I do not know if I would like linked brakes on the 2nd gen or not.....I did rig them up....and the reason I did not like them was yes stopping power was greatly hindered.........but I was using the rear master cylinder to power both the rear and the front right caliper.....I am not an engineer by any means......this was just an experiment, one I did not get a positive result from. I do much prefer the single rear brake as it can be used in corners.....without touching the front brake........and the front brake can be brought into play and used aggressively when needed , and in normal riding used all the time. So linked or not linked? It is my opinion and mine only and my preference to have single control brakes......the linked brakes are supposed to think for you.......do things automatically.....takes more practice and work with single control brakes........but once you learn to use that front brake....it is a wonderful tool.......I do not think I would want fully linked brakes........just my opinion. I do think fully linked are much safer ......for the average rider..........does take practice with brakes, not much with the front........the rear....yes lots of practice. But is not hard, comes with doing.

I know some of you are going to jump all over some of this.....there is no way that I know of to explain all situations.....so I say something like use the rear brake in the corners........then bring the front into play.....I do use the front in some corners......some not.......depends on a lot of factors...speed.....corner degree.......sand, gravel.....horsing around pushing it a little and counter steering and braking too.......Bottom line is I like the brake Mods........and have no fears of what a lawyer may or may not do to me. Respectfully Kit

[CrazyHorse]

Hey I agree with you guys if your 2nd Gen rear brake is that sensitive I would do something about it too( I must admit I have never rode a 2nd Gen). I know my opinion on de-linking is not a popular one with many of you. I did it for my own reasons listed many times before. I personally think I'm can get more out of the brakes I have. I'm still not happy with 1st Gen stopping power. I know more is there. Thanks to Condor I now know that the proportioning valve (which I did leave on) only gives 25 % to the rear. Using rear alone theres very little stopping power delinked with the brake line hooked to it's original postition. (No matter what position I set the pedal at.) I'm going to switch the position of the brake line to the front position on the valve and see how it goes from there. I'm going to test a master cylinder with a bigger bore and see if that gives me what I'm looking for. I like the Rick Butler idea of an adjustable valve. I respect everyones opinions and I've learned alot from this site from people that have owned these bikes for years and I appreciate everyones input even if they think I'm a nut job for modifying my bike the way I do. High siding is a dangerous thing (a little harder to do on an 800lb machine then a sportbike.) and don't blame you folks one bit looking for a solution. Merry Xmas to all. Jim:bighug:

[Condor]

Well the lawyer thing" I have practiced a lot with the new brake installations, I have used the Rick Butler Mod and the TCB. Instead of the almost instant rear wheel lockup that was pretty much to be expected with just minimal use on the stock bike......now with practice, I know exactly when the brake will lock up.......and it is much smoother.

 

Kit I can appreciate all the research and extensive trial testing you've done with your braking system, and for you your brakes probably work great. But..... no amount of practice is going to mentally prepare you for a correct response reaction time measured in nano-seconds. Your going to hit those brakes and hit them hard. Finess isn't going to come into play

[Guest KitCarson]

Kit I can appreciate all the research and extensive trial testing you've done with your braking system, and for you your brakes probably work great. But..... no amount of practice is going to mentally prepare you for a correct response reaction time measured in nano-seconds. Your going to hit those brakes and hit them hard. Finess isn't going to come into play

Hey Condor: You know what....... I honestly think you are right........what we do is for normal breaking and normal use.....all we can do is practice.....I do know I seem to always be on the front brake....have trained myself to do that.....but I have said before.....as you just have said.......in a real spit second emergency, just hope it kills you so you do not have to sit in a wheelchair!! When fear is in your throat........your heart is pumping that adrenalin, not just with a bike, but in all things....we do as humans sometimes seem to always make the wrong choice........and in the matter of bikes.....yea as most of us drive cars at least part of the time....the first natural instinct is to hit the rear brake........so in the back of my mind....I know you are right....but the mods do give you a spit second to maybe get control of your mind, settle down......but as you say.......in a Nano second....it really does not matter....but we do love to play.....to tinker.....to think........and try our best.

Now to all of you who are going to jump on the soap box and say you will do what you practice.......well................maybe.........I have a lot of time both teaching and using brakes........have took several advanced rider courses......going to take another this coming September..When fear is sitting on my shoulder......will I first thing do what I practice......I do think not.....I think just out of instinct I will hit that rear brake........yes I will hear that tire squall and let off before it becomes a slide.......but it does take self control to do this......Best thing is to daily teach yourself to be a defensive rider......Yes Condor you are quite correct.....none of us know what we will do.....till we do it........I agree.......the natural instinct is to hit the rear brake.....too many of us drive cars too......it will just be as it is.

[CrazyHorse]

Hey Condor: You know what....... I honestly think you are right........what we do is for normal breaking and normal use.....all we can do is practice.....I do know I seem to always be on the front brake....have trained myself to do that.....but I have said before.....as you just have said.......in a real spit second emergency, just hope it kills you so you do not have to sit in a wheelchair!! When fear is in your throat........your heart is pumping that adrenalin, not just with a bike, but in all things....we do as humans sometimes seem to always make the wrong choice........and in the matter of bikes.....yea as most of us drive cars at least part of the time....the first natural instinct is to hit the rear brake........so in the back of my mind....I know you are right....but the mods do give you a spit second to maybe get control of your mind, settle down......but as you say.......in a Nano second....it really does not matter....but we do love to play.....to tinker.....to think........and try our best.

Now to all of you who are going to jump on the soap box and say you will do what you practice.......well................maybe.........I have a lot of time both teaching and using brakes........have took several advanced rider courses......going to take another this coming September..When fear is sitting on my shoulder......will I first thing do what I practice......I do think not.....I think just out of instinct I will hit that rear brake........yes I will hear that tire squall and let off before it becomes a slide.......but it does take self control to do this......Best thing is to daily teach yourself to be a defensive rider......Yes Condor you are quite correct.....none of us know what we will do.....till we do it........I agree.......the natural instinct is to hit the rear brake.....too many of us drive cars too......it will just be as it is.

 

You probably going do what your trained from muscle memory something you have done time and time again. If you normally hit the rear all the time I think your gonna hit the rear. I see too many guys just use the rear for everyday riding and only use the front occasionally. Hence you have linked brakes because you have to use the front. Honda first noticed this if I remember right and put it on Goldwing 1200 I believe. Many "bikers" might get out for a couple hours on the weekend a little more then a few times a year especially in colder areas. Linked brakes are great for the weekend rider and I'm not going to dispute that cause Condor's right they are just gonna hit the brakes hard. They are not going to downshift simultanously (something that needs to be done to keep control) and look for an escape point. Your not really going to be able to brake and steer at the same time it's going to be one or the other not enough traction available for both. Now is this stuff gonna save you all the time NO. Sometimes when it's your time it's your time. I'll try and shut up now.

[Poledar]

I could never understand the concept of giving up 30% of the braking by NOT using the rear brake on the 1st gens. Have never had to unbend it from another vehicle and have put it to the test often. Guess I am stuck in the 80's but I still like the integrated braking system as Yamaha first put it together.

[Fvogt]

I have no problem sliding my front tire on my 84 after I converted the anti dive from hydraulic to electric like the 86-93. I never liked the idea that one side or the other would work unless you used both front & rear brakes. I IMHO if you use braided brake lines you would feel the difference also.

 

Fred

[hipshot]

i guess, because i am NOT a "biker", i have learned to love the linked breaks, on a first gen.

i don't compete.

i don't speed.

i don't get upset, when someone turns in front of me, 'cause i "knew that they were going to do that!"

i can't get all excited about "front wheel stands, sliding EITHER wheel, or spinning the back one"!

so i guess, me and "granpagak", are a "matched pair"!

in my humble opinion, all breaking systems, on bikes, are adequate, if you ride them like you "bought them" instead of "ride 'em like ya stole 'em!"

lol

 

no offense intended toward anyone!(even the one who "jumps in front of the bus")

just jt

[Guest KitCarson]

Hi Hipshot........Jim, you too Condor :rotfl:. I think you have the right idea Hipshot. If you were to ever go on a ride with me, you would find I am a very lazy easy rider, Yes I obey the speed limit.......I watch for traffic, and try to watch out for my riding partners, make sure the traffic is clear before switching the group to another lane.....all that stuff........and the course I plan to take this coming fall is to become an MSF instructor. (just a hobby) I do think a lot of controversy on this site over any subject is simply because we are all stubborn!!

There is no real perfect solution and answer to all the situations that can occur in emergency braking just prior to an accident. And to all who want to say...but.but.but......if if if.........and and and.......Hey I am not worried about but,if,and........I am no dummie......I know there are situations that can and do happen that no matter what you do, it just happens. I do not wish to be a worry wart and even be concerned about that aspect of things. All we can do is what we have done....prepare and practice....and I do believe that if you do prepare and practice and like Jim Bob and Hipshot say.......downshift......use some common sense, learn to ride your bike in a safe defensive manner, hey......most of this stuff takes care of itself.

What I was doing was experimenting with lots of ideas.......I also have this idea that if I have the mechanical skills to install something and go test it out....why not.......at least from me they will hear the truth.....not some hype just because I am trying to sell something.

Well let me shut up.......this subject can go on forever......nothing, and I mean nothing can take the place of hands on practice, and just everyday riding experience.......But I do wish to encourage all of you, to at least try the Rick Butler rear Brake Mod.......it will put that heavy foot under control, no it will not stop lock up....you can still push hard enough to do that.....and with experience you will find situations you might want more stopping power........but the Butler mod will soften the rear brake, give you time.......so put it all together, softer brakes......a little more time....practice a bit......yes I think it can and will with common sense and practice save people from getting hurt. No I am not worried about some lawyer because I told you to do this.....my intent is to help someone...not worry about what if. All of you have a nice Christmas.....just do what you can......do not worry about what if............

[Condor]

Hi Hipshot........Jim, you too Condor . Well let me shut up.......this subject can go on forever.......

 

That's not possible Kit....

[Squeeze]

I couldn't agree more on a Statements than on Jimbob's Quotes. Thanks for this Statements.

 

I know the Brakes of the early Models are weak, a Friends FJ1100 and several Vmaxxes i rode have had them. WEAK is Understatement in these Matters.

 

I mounted R1 Calipers the Time my 1Gen entered my Shop the first Time. I delinked the Brakes after 1 Month of riding. I mounted a R1 Caliper on the rear and now i find the Braking Power adequate to Weight of the Bike, my and my Wife's Weight and my Goals when riding the 1Gen. All Lines have been replaced with new steel braided Lines. Not more than adequate.

 

On my Max i have 320 mm Steel casted Discs with 8-Pot Calipers on left and right. Just enough Braking Power to meet my Goals and Attitude on this Bike.

 

 

The two or three Times i take my Honda out, i'm alerted of their weak Brakes and this Thing is dangerous compared to my other Bikes. One can never have more than enough Braking Power from a contemporary Point of View.