Oil

[Guest motohead]

My 89 started smoking real bad about 2 weeks ago.It only has about 6,000 miles on it.When I did my last oil change I might have put to much oil in it,would that cause it to smoke ??.

[GeorgeS]

Keep oil level no higher then half way between the two marks on the sight glass.

 

Overfilling can cause oil to get sucked into the vent back into the intake.

 

When you drain oil, there is about 1/2 qt. stays in the rear section, ( trany ) section of the lower case.

 

If you filled to the top line, drain some out. Try that.

 

I have heard people talk about this before, I think I have the details correct. sombody else should chip in to confirm or prove me wrong.

[Guest motohead]

I checked my airbox and it is dry.

[Marcarl]

Don't make any rash decisions until you check the oil level when the scoot is on it's center stand. Check it , then post again.

[Guest motohead]

On the center stand and after it has been fully warmed up and then turned off for about 5-10 minutes the oil level is almost to the top of the window.How would over filling cause it to smoke ???.The airbox is dry.

[Condor]

Don't know, but drain out enough to get the level down to where it's supposed to be and run it around for a while to see if the smoking habit goes away.....

[V7Goose]

On the center stand and after it has been fully warmed up and then turned off for about 5-10 minutes the oil level is almost to the top of the window.How would over filling cause it to smoke ???.The airbox is dry.

As long as you can see some air above the oil in the sight window, your level is OK - no need to drain any.

 

As far as your question goes, I do not believe over-filling the crankcase a small amount would have ANY effect on burning oil - these engines just blow some out the vent tubes if over filled. But I know a lot more about the 2nd Gen than the old antiques!

 

Anyway, you said your bike just started doing this a couple of weeks ago, so that indicates something is broke. Maybe it is just bad karma for not having ridden that bike enough? I mean, 6,000 miles on an 89? Come on!

 

OK, I'll get off your case now and try and help.

 

Are you sure it is oil burning? Coolant leaking into the cylinder through a blown head gasket will produce lots of white smoke too (mostly steam).

 

Oil can only burn if it enters the combustion chamber - only three ways this can happen: through the valves, by the rings or blown head gasket. The best test for your problem is a compression test (including leak-down). Without a test like that or a full tear-down for inspection, I'm not sure what else you can do, but here are some possible things that could be causing it.

 

Does it mostly smoke on start-up and then pretty much go away? If so, it indicates some leakage by your valve stems. Assuming the motor has rubber oil seals on the valve stems, it is possible that one or more of them got hard and cracked on a 17 year old motor.

 

I do not know where the engine vents on a 1st gen, but if it is into the air box, then you have already eliminated that as a source. Sometimes the crankcase vents might be plumbed directly into one of the intake manifolds anywhere past the air filter element. You will need to track down the vent tubes to fully eliminate them as a possibility.

 

Does the engine smoke mostly when the throttle is snapped closed? If so, it indicates the oil is bing sucked into the cylinder on the intake stroke, either past the rings or the valve guides. With only 6,000 miles on the engine, neither should be worn enough for this to happen unless you sucked something into one of the cylinders and gouged the walls.

 

If it smokes all the time and it is not one of the vent lines or damaged cylinders, then I can only think of one very rare possibility. In many engines, the piston rings are designed to rotate slightly in normal running. This keeps the ends from wearing a notch in either the ring groves or the cylinder walls. On rare occasions, the ring end gaps can all line up providing a direct path for both oil and compression gasses to shoot by the piston. The bottom of the cylinder walls and piston skirt are oiled by some combination of splash from the crank and oil being thrown off the crank pins as it is pushed past the connecting rod bearings. if the piston rings gaps are all lined up and just happen to be in a spot that gets a direct splash of oil on the cylinder wall, then it can really lead to excessive oil use and smoking. Very rare, but it has been recorded.

 

A compression test will absolutely identify a bad cylinder, either from damage or ring end-gap alignment, but the engine would still need to be torn down to fix it.

 

A blown head gasket can cause all sorts of problems, including either oil or coolant (or both) in the combustion chamber, as well as coolant in the crank case or oil in the coolant! Watch out for any sign of light brown froth in the coolant or any chocolate color in the oil! I don't know how much value any of that will be to you. Good luck getting it figured out!

Goose

[bongobobny]

On the center stand and after it has been fully warmed up and then turned off for about 5-10 minutes the oil level is almost to the top of the window.How would over filling cause it to smoke ???.The airbox is dry.

The proper level should be about halfway up with a COLD emgine that has sat fer several hours at least. With a warm engine there is probably half a pint still clinging higher up in the heads. Even though the oil is warm it still takes a while to drain down completely. Too much oil and there can be a lot of blowby past the rings due to not a sufficient amount of air area for instantaneous positive crankcase pressure. Keep in mind air soes compress creating a positive pressure, whereas oil does not compress...

[Guest motohead]

I just bought the bike about 2 months ago so I don't know why it sat for so long.It smokes alittle upon cold start up and gets worse as it gets hotter.It smokes when you give it throttle not after you close the throttle.The smoke is grey in color and smells like burning oil.If I put my finger in the end of the pipes it comes out VERY,VERY black and wet...

[Marcarl]

I just bought the bike about 2 months ago so I don't know why it sat for so long.It smokes alittle upon cold start up and gets worse as it gets hotter.It smokes when you give it throttle not after you close the throttle.The smoke is grey in color and smells like burning oil.If I put my finger in the end of the pipes it comes out VERY,VERY black and wet...

Going by this discription I would look at the fuel system first. Lots of seafoam and some time before I'd make any rash discisions. Some seafaom in the crankcase might not be such a bad idea either, but because of the wet clutch go easy on the riding and put very little stress on the power train. Mostly just get it nice and warm and then let it sit to dissolve the gum and other related not wanted materials in the engine. I would give it a week for starters, drain about 1 quart of oil, pour in the Seafoam, warm to operating temp, let sit overnight, next day the same. Take it for a ride if you want, but go easy. After a week, drain the whole works, refill and ride for a week, then drain the oil again and refill once more. Don't know if it will fix the problem, but won't do any harm to try.

Lots of Seafoam in the gas tank at the same time to clean the fuel system. then check the sliders to make sure they are workin well.

[V7Goose]

I just bought the bike about 2 months ago so I don't know why it sat for so long.It smokes alittle upon cold start up and gets worse as it gets hotter.It smokes when you give it throttle not after you close the throttle.The smoke is grey in color and smells like burning oil.If I put my finger in the end of the pipes it comes out VERY,VERY black and wet...

Sounds like a blown head gasket to me. Smoking more when you hit the gas is indicative if rising oil pressure, and more as it warms up would be consistent with thinning oil.

 

But the gray color gives me some concern. Generally burning oil is more white than gray, so this could be caused by excess gas AND oil. Of course, describing the color is subjective too! Pull the plugs. If it is a blown head gasket, only one will show the wet oil look. If they are all sooty and gooey, then it is more likely a gas problem. Good luck,

Goose

[Marcarl]

But the gray color gives me some concern. Generally burning oil is more white than gray, so this could be caused by excess gas AND oil. Of course, describing the color is subjective too! Pull the plugs. If it is a blown head gasket, only one will show the wet oil look. If they are all sooty and gooey, then it is more likely a gas problem. Good luck,

Goose

 

Burning oil is generally blue, There are 4 separate carbs and only one maybe the culprit so only one plug may show wet, it's not likely that all 4 carbs would show identical, or would it.

If you have a blown head gasket and grey smoke, you might see the results in the coolant. Have you checked the condition of the coolant? If there is oil there, you got problems, but if not we haven't dicovered anything yet. Does the exhaust maybe smell like burnt coolant? Check your coolant level, is it down? Is the colour of the oil grey? that may show coolant in the oil. When's the last time you changed the oil?

Keep thinking, that's all I'm doing, just thinking.

[V7Goose]

White, gray, blue, brown, black . . . each of us may describe a particular smoke color differently, especially if we are trying to get more specific than just white or black smoke. The spark plugs are going to be more useful in conjunction with the smoke color, but even then, if there are multiple problems, such as too rich AND burning oil, this will make it very difficult to diagnose in words. If we are getting some darker smoke from too much gas, then the plugs should be very sooty and dry. Even if they are wet with gas when you pull them out, they should dry off relatively quickly. If a cylinder is burning significant oil, then the plug should have a dark oily appearance that does not dry off like gas does. BTW - if you are going to read the plugs, be sure to kill the engine WHILE it is doing what you are trying to find (in this case, while it is smoking hard with the throttle open). If you do this while riding it, make sure you pull in the clutch at the same time so that the engine does not keep turning over.

 

Wet black goo in the end of the tail pipe can easily be from burning too much gas, oil or coolant, so that alone does not help us out much. Too much gas will leave a lot of black soot, and normal engine combustion creates a lot of water that will make the inside of the pipe very wet until the bike has been run at full temperature for an extended period of time (until the end of the pipe is quite hot to the touch). On the other hand, if the wetness is oil residue, then you should be able to feel it on your fingers, and it will not disappear even when the pipe is hot.

 

Here is another simple test - with the engine warm, take out a plug and fire it up. Put your hand or a piece of white cardboard over the plug hole and see what is blowing out of each one. What color is it? What does it smell like? You might be able to do this with all the plugs out and just crank with the starter, but that might not produce enough splatter to really find out what is running through each cylinder. This is not a perfect test, since you don't have the same level of internal vacuum while the piston is on the intake stroke, but it should still give you some good info. You might want to first try this test with all the plugs out from when you shut off the engine to read them, since the cylinders will have whatever was in them while they were smoking hard. If you don't get much blown out with the starter, you can put two or three plugs back in and fire it up to check them that way.

 

A blown head gasket can be a real problem to diagnose because the leakage can be either oil, coolant, or combustion gasses mixing in any combination. For example, oil might just be leaking from an oil line into the cylinder from normal oil pressure, or it could be leaking into both the cylinder and the coolant. It all depends on exactly where the head gasket has lost seal. I haven't studied this engine enough to know if there are pressurized oil lines feeding the heads internally or externally, so I cannot factor that into my guesses. The good thing is that a blown head gasket will most likely only affect one cylinder, so that should help in the diagnosis.

 

Do the 1st gens have an equalizer connection between the left and right pipes like many bikes do? If no, then comparing left to right exhaust should be helpful. If there is a connection, can it be easily disconnected and plugged? How about pulling off the mufflers and running straight pipes long enough to check the smoke - is this feasible on a 1st gen? If both pipes are smoking without a connection between them, then the problem clearly cannot be just one cylinder, which would tend to focus the attention to the air intake tract. If you haven't yet tracked down where all the crankcase ventilation tubes go, I'd finish that first, as that is the easiest way to verify you are not burning oil through that route. Good luck,

Goose

[V7Goose]

I just bought the bike about 2 months ago so I don't know why it sat for so long.It smokes alittle upon cold start up and gets worse as it gets hotter.It smokes when you give it throttle not after you close the throttle.The smoke is grey in color and smells like burning oil.If I put my finger in the end of the pipes it comes out VERY,VERY black and wet...

Here is another thought from a totally different direction: Your symptoms (including your description of more smoke under acceleration) really sound like a worn-out or damaged engine. How sure are you about the miles this thing has on it? Did the smoking mostly start after you changed the oil? If so, what did the oil look like that you drained? Was it black and thin or did it look mostly new with lots of viscosity? I'm not trying to point the finger at anybody, but a worn out engine with a bunch of STP or Motor Honey in the oil might just hide enough of the smoke to slip past an unsuspecting buyer until the oil was drained and replaced with normal stuff!

 

There should be lots of other tell-tale signs to look for on the bike to see if it really only has 6,000 miles on it. Original paint job? If so, are there any stone chips or pits on the front fairing, body work or fender? How about the rubber covers on the brake peddle, shift lever, pegs, etc.? With 6,000 miles you should be able to see some indications of wear, but not much. If they look brand new, suspect that they may have been changed! Is the twist grip rubber? Look closely for wear patterns from the hand. Again, at only 6,000 miles, this should be just barely visible. How about under the bike? If it has not been steam cleaned, there should be some gunk and road grime built up in a few places, but not a lot. Also look for wear marks around any moving parts, such as the clutch lever pivot, swing arm pivots, shock mounts, shift linkages, etc. If the 1st gen has exposed fork tubes, how much wear is visible above the oil seal? At 6,000, there should be almost none. If necessary, go find a bike (any bike) with verifiable mileage under 15,000 and compare how much wear is visible on similar parts. Good luck,

Goose

[Guest motohead]

What is seafoam ???

[Rocket]

What is seafoam ???

Here is some reading to do.......

 

Originally Posted by Rocket

Here is some reading for you, you can get it at NAPA stores

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/se...searchid=35130

http://http://www.seafoamsales.com/m...eUpTechGas.htm

THANKS FOR THE INFO I WENT TO THE LINKS YOU PRVIDED AND EITHER THIS STUFF IS REALLY GOOD OR HALF THE VENTURERIDER MEMBERSHIP WORKS FOR SEAFOAM. IN ANY CASE I DEFINITLY WILL HAVE TO FIND SOME.

[saddlebum]

I just bought the bike about 2 months ago so I don't know why it sat for so long.It smokes alittle upon cold start up and gets worse as it gets hotter.It smokes when you give it throttle not after you close the throttle.The smoke is grey in color and smells like burning oil.If I put my finger in the end of the pipes it comes out VERY,VERY black and wet...

As a rule if it smokes when you open the throttle rings are suspect, if it smokes when you close the throttle as in using your gears going down a hill valve seals or guides are suspect. as the engine oil heats up it tends to burn more readily. also if the bike sat a long time it may A) just need a good run, Or B) a bit of rust may have formed on the cyl walls this sometimes damages the oil control rings

[V7Goose]

As a rule if it smokes when you open the throttle rings are suspect, if it smokes when you close the throttle as in using your gears going down a hill valve seals or guides are suspect. as the engine oil heats up it tends to burn more readily. also if the bike sat a long time it may A) just need a good run, Or B) a bit of rust may have formed on the cyl walls this sometimes damages the oil control rings

Saddlebum has a good point about the engine sitting - I didn't even think about that. If those 6,000 miles are real, then that bike has done a LOT of sitting for extended periods over the last 17 years. Those rings could be frozen in the ring grooves, thus acting just like a worn out motor! Or worse, the cylinder walls could be badly pitted and damaged from rust, or the rings broken from catching on the damaged cylinder surface after it was first fired up. If these engines have iron cylinder sleeves (probably, but I don't know for sure), then it is very common for iron rings to rust to the cylinder walls when an engine sits for many years, especially if it is any place except the desert.

Goose

[frankd]

If it's using that much oil, you would have to add some before too long. Do you?? (If so, how fast does it use oil?)

 

If it's smoking due to a coolant leak (head gasket..) your coolant level will go down after a couple of rides. Does it??

 

If it smoking due to a rich mixture, your gas mileage will be lousy. Are you getting around 40 MPG??

 

Once the source of the smoke is positively determined, troubleshooting will be a lot easier.

[Guest motohead]

I'm pretty sure the bike really has only 6,000 miles it still has the stock tires and they are in pretty good shape ( soon to be changed ).It sat for many years and most of those were outside.It ran pretty well for the first month ( about 500 miles ) .Then all of a sudden it started Idling VERY high ( 3,000-5,000 rpms )Just after that I changed the oil and apperently overfilled it.I have cleaned the carbs once ( I took out the slides and cleaned them ).Now they are sticking again ( the slides ) and it is smoking badly.The smoke is grey and smells oily.and when I put my finger in the pipe it comes out wet and smells like oil.It also seems down on power ( my 700 Virago eats it for lunch ).The weird thing is it doesn't seem to be using any oil !!.Also the coolant is green and looks just fine.When I put on the choke even when the bike is hot it makes it rev even higher !!!.When I take out the air filter and give it throttle to see if the slides move only 1 slide moves and it wont take very much throttle. HELP !!!!

[Marcarl]

I'm pretty sure the bike really has only 6,000 miles it still has the stock tires and they are in pretty good shape ( soon to be changed ).It sat for many years and most of those were outside.It ran pretty well for the first month ( about 500 miles ) .Then all of a sudden it started Idling VERY high ( 3,000-5,000 rpms )Just after that I changed the oil and apperently overfilled it.I have cleaned the carbs once ( I took out the slides and cleaned them ).Now they are sticking again ( the slides ) and it is smoking badly.The smoke is grey and smells oily.and when I put my finger in the pipe it comes out wet and smells like oil.It also seems down on power ( my 700 Virago eats it for lunch ).The weird thing is it doesn't seem to be using any oil !!.Also the coolant is green and looks just fine.When I put on the choke even when the bike is hot it makes it rev even higher !!!.When I take out the air filter and give it throttle to see if the slides move only 1 slide moves and it wont take very much throttle. HELP !!!!

Doesn't seem like we've solved your problem yet, so another stab at it.

What weight of oil did you put in, it s\b 20\40 or 20\50. Also check the boots under the carbs to make sure that they are seated properly. A leak here would cause a slider problem and a high idle. The sliders may also be gumming up from oil coming into the carbs, you say not, but check again. If the sliders are not moving it's going to create some of the problem you just posted. Take them out again, check very closely for very small pin holes in the diaphram and cracks in the slider itself (hold them up to a light) and that the slider is not coming apart. Clean the slider well with a carb cleaner, also the throat where the slider slides in, the jet where the needle slide in, and while you're at it clean any other small holes and jets that you can see in the carb as you have this apart. Check for any vaccum hoses that they are attached and in good shape. For cleaning, get a good carb cleaner, I find that Deep Creep does not do the job well.

Let us know how it goes, you been too long already with problems and that gets to be frustrating.

[Yammer Dan]

Do a very strong Sea-Foam treatment and then take a compression test. These things should read somewhere between 130 to 170 PSI. If it is lower than this put a few squirts of oil in the cylinder you are checking and check it again. If it raises you have damaged rings. If not the trouble is valves or head gaskets. But I would Sea-Foam it very strongly first. Be careful with oyher cleaners and NO DRI-GAS. It is bad stuff for the seals and things inside carbs. I have been told it is too strong but I use a full can of Sea-Foam with the tank only showing the last bar and run it till reserve light comes on. Works well for me.

[Squidley]

It sounds like it has been setting idle for way too long, personally I think the carbs need to be rebuilt. If the slides arent working correctly then that sounds to me like the diaphrams are bad. Lots of good advise here with the cylinders being a bit rusty...a compression test is definitely in order as advised by Goose, this will help a lot.

 

If and this is an IF there is damamge to the cylinders you might be able to just hone them out and re ring it if it only has 6000 miles, as the cylinders would more than likely not be worn out of round. The seafoam is a great idea but on something that has sat for that long and in the weather sometimes as you stated it might need more than Seafoam can do. BTW Seafoam can be purchased at Autozone stores for about $6 a can or Carquest stores for about the same price.

 

Keep us updated on your progress and we'll get you through this

[Guest motohead]

Thanks guys,The weather here ( Seattle ) is supposed to be good today so I'm going to Seafoam it and change the oil and put in the PROPER amount this time.My son is getting his M/C license in 2 weeks so I want to be ready to ride with him for awhile to help him along so I need to get this old girl running !!!...I will post my findings later today.

 

THANKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Alan.....

[GeorgeS]

You said you had the carbs apart.

 

When you reinstalled the diaphram covers, were the tiny O-rings at the bottom of each cover IN Place. ??

 

Whan I did mine, I lost one of them. This is the bleed port from the carb to the Outside of the Diaphrams.

 

These O-rings are easy to miss, on reassembly.

 

The reason I bring this up is you said the carb slides were not all dancing .

 

Question: Do you happen to live near Renton ??