Clutch slip

[22lyons]

Ok. I just experienced a wierd feeling in the clutch which i assume is "clutch slippage". I have a 2000 with 34,000 miles. I have done some reading on here and am wondering a few things...

 

1. Will a new spring stock sping make a difference? I read one post where someone tried the "heavier" spring and ended up replacing it back with a new "stock" spring.

 

2. Do i need to replace more than a sping? It only has been slipping in 5th gear with a lot of throttle.

 

3. What exaclty causes this defect? I have owned old GW and never talk of clutch slippage.

 

Thanks,

 

Larry

[V7Goose]

A new stock spring will probably fix it for about another 30,000 miles. I strongly suggest you call PCW Racing and get their upgraded spring, which will fix it for 100,000 miles.

 

Personally, I would get they upgrade kit from PCW Racing, which consists of the spring, one full friction plate to replace the half-plate in the back of the stack, and the gasket.

 

This is all covered in great detail in may older threads.

Goose

[22lyons]

A new stock spring will probably fix it for about another 30,000 miles. I strongly suggest you call PCW Racing and get their upgraded spring, which will fix it for 100,000 miles.

 

Personally, I would get they upgrade kit from PCW Racing, which consists of the spring, one full friction plate to replace the half-plate in the back of the stack, and the gasket.

 

This is all covered in great detail in may older threads.

Goose

 

 

Goose,

 

thanks for the reply. I have read the tech tips. What makes this a problem with the venture? I can fix things but i don't understand the clutch workings.

 

How much for the upgraded clutch spring? I should let PCW know make and model?

 

Thanks,

 

Larry

[V7Goose]

In my opinion it is simply a relatively poor spring design that looses some of its temper over time. PCW's replacement spring is stronger and used extensively in the Vmax with more power than we have. All you need to tell them is you want the clutch spring upgrade for the Ventrure.

Goose

[Condor]

Bleed the clutch before going for the juggler... Chances are very good the clutch has never been bled, and bleeding will cure the slipping.... At 34,000 miles the clutch is not worn out and the spring is still good.

[allwx]

Bleed the clutch before going for the juggler... Chances are very good the clutch has never been bled, and bleeding will cure the slipping.... At 34,000 miles the clutch is not worn out and the spring is still good.

 

Just by way of comparison, my 97 RSTD still had it original clutch in it at 75k miles when I sold it. I had heard that these clutches were a bit weak, so when the bike had around 50k on it I went ahead and bought new spring and plates, and then waited for it to start slipping. It never did. When I sold the bike, the new clutch parts went with it to the new owner. He kept the bike for three years and when he sold it, those clutch parts went to the third owner. I realize the Venture makes a lot more power than the older Royal Stars, so maybe that is the difference.

[SilvrT]

At 34,000 miles the clutch is not worn out and the spring is still good.

 

That might depend on the way it has been driven. I didn't even have 34000 KILOMETERS on mine and I was getting slippage when I did a high rpm power shift from 3rd to 4th. From that, it wouldn't be long before I'd be feeling slippage under load in 5th especially pulling mountain grades and/or towing the trailer .... so I did the "skydoc" upgrade.

 

Now, it's been a while (few month's) and I pulled the new tent trailer from Spokane home and never felt any slippage ... and this coming weekend will be the "real test" as we're all loaded up to go camping and I'll be pulling a lot of mountain grades on this trip.

[Sylvester]

What Goose said is the right way to go, IMHO.

 

I have a friend that could not afford the upgrade so we installed a new stock spring over the existing weaker spring (the plates and discs were fine) and that took care of the problem. Gives a stronger tension on the clutch.

 

[Condor]

That might depend on the way it has been driven. I didn't even have 34000 KILOMETERS on mine and I was getting slippage when I did a high rpm power shift from 3rd to 4th. From that, it wouldn't be long before I'd be feeling slippage under load in 5th especially pulling mountain grades and/or towing the trailer .... so I did the "skydoc" upgrade.

 

Now, it's been a while (few month's) and I pulled the new tent trailer from Spokane home and never felt any slippage ... and this coming weekend will be the "real test" as we're all loaded up to go camping and I'll be pulling a lot of mountain grades on this trip.

 

You've got a heck of a bike to be pulling mountain grades in 5th gear... with a trailer..

 

 

What Goose said is the right way to go, IMHO.

 

I have a friend that could not afford the upgrade so we installed a new stock spring over the existing weaker spring (the plates and discs were fine) and that took care of the problem. Gives a stronger tension on the clutch.

 

 

I'm not saying it isn't... if the clutch is fubar, but... bleed the clutch first and save yourself some money... There are a lot of things that can cause clutch slippage, and most are easlily and cheaply fixed. Rebuild as a last resort.... not the first....

[V7Goose]

Bleed the clutch before going for the juggler... Chances are very good the clutch has never been bled, and bleeding will cure the slipping.... At 34,000 miles the clutch is not worn out and the spring is still good.

Yes, it is always a good idea to CHANGE THE FLUID on the clutch if it is more than two years old, but I personally think just bleeding it without a full change of the fluid is a waste of time. Besides, air in the fluid does not cause slipping, it prevents full disengagement because it compresses before the clutch spring does. Lots of moisture in the fluid could cause the problem, but not before the fluid got VERY hot - pretty rare for a clutch system.

 

More importantly, however, is the fact that it is VERY VERY common for the Ventures to start slipping by 40,000 miles, even when all maintenance has been done appropriately. When this happens, the clutch plates ARE still good, but the spring absolutely is NOT.

Goose

[SilvrT]

You've got a heck of a bike to be pulling mountain grades in 5th gear... with a trailer.. .

 

When yer dooin 75 mph or more, it can be done ...

[Condor]

Yes, it is always a good idea to CHANGE THE FLUID on the clutch if it is more than two years old, but I personally think just bleeding it without a full change of the fluid is a waste of time.

 

That's what I thought bleeding the clutch was all about???

 

Besides, air in the fluid does not cause slipping, it prevents full disengagement because it compresses before the clutch spring does.

 

Air in the lines will heat up and expand, and cause slipping....

 

Lots of moisture in the fluid could cause the problem, but not before the fluid got VERY hot - pretty rare for a clutch system.

 

With the slave sitting on the side of the block getting hot is normal, and moisture will boil releasing steam, causing slippage.

 

More importantly, however, is the fact that it is VERY VERY common for the Ventures to start slipping by 40,000 miles, even when all maintenance has been done appropriately. When this happens, the clutch plates ARE still good, but the spring absolutely is NOT.

Goose

 

Servicing the clutch on a 2ndGen RSV is an out of sight out of mind thing since the master sight glass is hidden behind the audio control cluster and the #1 fin cover needs to be removed to get to the bleeder. So it's put off til next time more often than not. I'm personally not aware of any clutch failures at 40,000 miles on an RSV clutch that has been serviced regularly. I am aware of owners mistakenly using friction modified oil in the engine causing slipping.,, Another cause.... Just to say it's slipping... and it's time to rebuild the clutch... seems to me like a waste of time and money since there are other places to look before spending the bucks. The only thing good about rebuilding the clutch pack is it's the easiest major repair that can be done to the bike.

[Condor]

When yer dooin 75 mph or more, it can be done ...

 

This I gotta see.... 'Course how long of a grade are you talking about.... :rotf:

[RedRider]

Condor,

 

My clutch started slipping at about 35k miles and I am meticulous about clutch and brake maintenance. At that time, I replaced everything (done by the dealer - ouch). Good for another 25k and started slipping again while riding in West, by God, Virginia (pulling a trailer). Replaced OEM with a PWC spring and haven't had to do anything other than fluid every two years. Have 96k on it now.

 

22lyons,

 

One of the guys on here sells the spring, upgrade kit, and all the clutch components. Skydoc17 will get you taken care of for a fair price. Unless you have cooked any of the disks, a simple change of the spring will likely take care of your problem. I have also done the half disk/spring replacement but will likely be putting it back in this winter. This replacement reduces the friction stroke (how far the clutch lever moves in the friction zone) to where it is a pain when riding in traffic.

 

To change the spring is about 15 minutes of work (assuming you have to scrape the old gasket). Don't even need to dump the oil. Just put it on the sidestand, pop off the cover, remove the 5 bolts (IIRC), reverse procedure with new spring and gasket. Make sure to use an in-lb torque wrench on the spring bolts. They don't take much to over tighten.

 

RR

[Gearhead]

Another perspective. On both my Virago and Venture the clutches started slipping around the 50k mark, which wasn't too long after I bought each bike. In both cases I replaced the friction disks. Steel plates and spring measured fine, so I left them. Actually, the friction disks measured like new for that matter, but I replaced them with EBC disks in the Virago and factory Yammy disks in the Venture. In both cases it fixed the problem. Venture is now pushing 100k and the Virago has 140k miles.

 

Jeremy

[V7Goose]

Servicing the clutch on a 2ndGen RSV is an out of sight out of mind thing since the master sight glass is hidden behind the audio control cluster and the #1 fin cover needs to be removed to get to the bleeder. So it's put off til next time more often than not. I'm personally not aware of any clutch failures at 40,000 miles on an RSV clutch that has been serviced regularly. I am aware of owners mistakenly using friction modified oil in the engine causing slipping.,, Another cause.... Just to say it's slipping... and it's time to rebuild the clutch... seems to me like a waste of time and money since there are other places to look before spending the bucks. The only thing good about rebuilding the clutch pack is it's the easiest major repair that can be done to the bike.

Sorry, but most of what you say is just wrong.

 

To "bleed" brakes or clutch means to get the air out. You stop bleeding as soon as the system has full pressure on the first stroke. If you mean to change the fluid, then say to change the fluid.

 

Air in a brake or clutch line will NOT NOT NOT cause it to either apply the brakes or clutch and allow slippage. The hydraulic system is specifically designed to let the fluid push back into the master when the lever is released - if it did not do that, you vehicle would never move again after you applied the brakes one time! So unless there is something damaged in your system, anything that increases pressure in the hydraulic system does nothing more than push fluid back into the master cylinder.

 

Old brake fluid that has absorbed water can boil and create steam, but once again, this CANNOT activate the brake or clutch on a properly working system - it causes you to LOOSE THE USE of either your brake or clutch. Furthermore, it is virtually impossible for a clutch system to get hot enough to boil the fluid.

 

This happens with brakes because the slave pistons are pushing directly against the pads, which do generate massive amounts of heat.

 

But with our clutch system, there is no way at all for the plates to transfer any significant amount of heat into the slave, so the only available heat is from the lower engine block. This engine is water cooled and generally runs the coolant about 210 degrees. Even under the worst conditions of 120 degrees outside and stuck in stopped traffic, the fan will hold the coolant temp about 245 degrees (personal observation). In my opinion, the temperature of the lower engine case is never going to be hotter than the oil in the sump. There are different theories about how engine oil temperature compares to coolant temperature; I do not think it is ever more than about 40 degrees higher under normal conditions. But even if it is running 60 degrees over the coolant temperature, that would mean normal oil temps of 280 degrees, and worse case oil temps of 305 degrees. Now the good part - the wet boiling point of DOT4 fluid is 311 degrees. Just ain't no friggin' way the clutch system is EVER gonna get that hot.

 

Finally, you keep harping about not needing to "rebuild" the clutch. Well, the only advice given in this thread has been to replace or upgrade the spring. You are the only person I have ever heard who feels that replacing or upgrading just the spring is "rebuilding" the clutch. Even replacing that one half-plate with a normal full size friction plate is not "rebuilding" - that would technically be called a modification.

 

OK, that's it for me. If you think I have said something incorrect, then let's prove it and get it corrected so we do not spread bad information. Otherwise, I'm done with this subject. Peace.

Goose

Edited August 31, 2011 by V7Goose

[SilvrT]

I'm grabbing a bag of popcorn and a coke to watch the show....

[22lyons]

I appreciate all the input. Here is the interesting part:

 

I just put in new fluid for the clutch a few months ago while meeting carbon1 and his lovely wife. When the new fluid was put in the clutch had very little travel before engagment at first. After a day the travel became back to normal which is pretty "long" before engagement. Is this normal with a change in fluid?

 

Thanks agian for all the help and suggestions. What a great site!

 

Larry

[V7Goose]

I appreciate all the input. Here is the interesting part:

 

I just put in new fluid for the clutch a few months ago while meeting carbon1 and his lovely wife. When the new fluid was put in the clutch had very little travel before engagment at first. After a day the travel became back to normal which is pretty "long" before engagement. Is this normal with a change in fluid?

 

Thanks agian for all the help and suggestions. What a great site!

 

Larry

No, that is not normal - how it feels when you get done changing/bleeding is how it should stay (ignoring changes from the fluid aging, since that will take many months or years). It sounds like maybe you had a small air bubble trapped in the master cylinder plunger that worked its way into the reservoir. That is just a WAG, as I have never encountered that exact problem.

 

But as it relates to your problem of clutch slipping - it is highly unlikely that it could be related. There is no adjustment on a hydraulic clutch - the spring pushes back on the fluid in the slave until it is totally relaxed. Any slipping can only come from three possibilities:

 

1. The spring is no longer strong enough to push all the clutch parts together for a solid lock-up.
   
2. The clutch parts are worn so that the spring has to push them further to get solid lock-up. Note that this is actually pretty rare on a wet clutch in less than a gazillion miles.
   
3. Something has changed the friction between the clutch parts so that they are more slippery. This can be the use of an improper oil, overheated clutch from too much feathering or riding the handle, oil additives, etc.
   

Also note that any combination of the above can cause the problem even though no one thing is bad enough by itself. But IMHO, unless this problem started within 1,000 miles of your changing to a new type of oil, or you were practicing riding in the "friction zone", your problem is just the very common weak stock clutch spring. If it is the weak spring, our options to fix it are three (in MY order of preference):

 

1. Just put in a PCW spring - cheap and quick (I would actually do the half-plate upgrade too, but that only adds $10).
   
2. Double up on stock clutch plates - actually better to use two old ones instead of buying a new one to add on top of yours. This will provide LOTS of spring pressure, but at a cost of a noticeably stiffer clutch pull. If you want to go this way, I can send you an old spring for $5 shipping.
   
3. Spend great gobs of money to buy a pretty purple pressure plate and coil springs to replace your stock setup. It won't work a bit better than the PCW spring, but you can always carry a picture of it in your wallet.
   

Goose

[Guest scarylarry]

Spend great gobs of money to buy a pretty purple pressure plate and coil springs to replace your stock setup. It won't work a bit better than the PCW spring, but you can always carry a picture of it in your wallet.

 

Now that was funny.....Good one

[Sylvester]

JUST LISTEN to V7Goose, he has said what I would have said and it is the gospel truth. YOU need at the least new springs and at the most a new clutch. Just go out and get it. We at VT.org have been riding and working ont these machines for years.

 

PEASE as my brother in riding, Goose would say.

 

[22lyons]

now that i know i can get a purple one.... i'lll be stylin...

 

new spring at least. will check out the additional plate too.

 

again what a great site.

[bikenut]

I agree with Goose 100%. Every bike I have gotten in the shop for slipping all it was was the spring. All plates and disks still were fine as long as the person had it looked at right away.If not looked at right away you could burn the plates or disks if the slipping happened alot.

[SilvrT]

.If not looked at right away you could burn the plates or disks if the slipping happened alot.

 

...and thus the reason I upgraded my clutch "modified,... not rebuilt" with skydoc's kit. In fact, one of my steel discs were already showing some "blueing".

[Guest]

I have that pretty purple pressure plate in the bike since 2005 and never had another lick of trouble. Its kinda like back in my old hot rod days when the diaphragm pressure plate in the Chevys went south and it was replaced with a "finger" pressure plate. While the Barnett set-up costs more I feel that its a "true upgraded conversion" since your eliminating a weak design and replacing it with a 6 spring design. It was worth the extra money to me.