tvking63 Posted July 4, 2011 Share #1 Posted July 4, 2011 I wasn't sure where to post this. It's about tires, but it's on a sidecar rig and it's got a little bit of darkside throw in for good measure. I decided to put it where I thought it might get the most eyes. I have a '83 with a California Friendship I sidecar. I've been getting about 3k miles out of a Dunlop 404 on the rear. Ideally with a sidecar rig I'd run a car tire but after doing MUCH digging, it appears that a car tire isn't an option with the 16'' wheel. So I'm looking for the meanest, nastiest, live forever tire I can find. It looks like a lot of people are running Avon Vemon's or Dunlop Elite 3's. Is there anything else I should be looking at? I see a lot of chatter about the Avon's cracking so I'm shying away from them, but the E 3's in 1st Gen sizes aren't radials. I don't know why, but I think I should be running a more modern radial tire. Any issues with running bias ply's? I even looked into swapping in a 15'' Vmax wheel but couldn't find any one that had actually done it and there is very little clearance between the swingarm and the stock tire. So even if you could get a Vmax wheel on there, I doubt that I could find a car tire that would clear. Thoughts? Comments? Rude remarks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiCarl Posted July 4, 2011 Share #2 Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) There are a couple issues with the D404: They aren't known for having long tread life and the 149/90-16 has a modest weight rating. You're going to have quite a bit of weight on it with the hack. You'll get higher weight ratings from the Dunlop Elite III, Avon Venom, Kenda Kruz or Metzeler ME880. Of course some people have issues with the 880s. According the Dunlop tire web site it's not a good idea putting radial tires on a motorcycle designed for bias tires. They claim that the bikes using radial tires have the suspension set up specifically for radial use. Of course the side car changes all the rules anyhow....... Any motorcycle tire is going to wear quickly with your set up though. Edited July 4, 2011 by MiCarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuckShot Posted July 4, 2011 Share #3 Posted July 4, 2011 I wasn't sure where to post this. It's about tires, but it's on a sidecar rig and it's got a little bit of darkside throw in for good measure. I decided to put it where I thought it might get the most eyes. I have a '83 with a California Friendship I sidecar. I've been getting about 3k miles out of a Dunlop 404 on the rear. Ideally with a sidecar rig I'd run a car tire but after doing MUCH digging, it appears that a car tire isn't an option with the 16'' wheel. So I'm looking for the meanest, nastiest, live forever tire I can find. It looks like a lot of people are running Avon Vemon's or Dunlop Elite 3's. Is there anything else I should be looking at? I see a lot of chatter about the Avon's cracking so I'm shying away from them, but the E 3's in 1st Gen sizes aren't radials. I don't know why, but I think I should be running a more modern radial tire. Any issues with running bias ply's? I even looked into swapping in a 15'' Vmax wheel but couldn't find any one that had actually done it and there is very little clearance between the swingarm and the stock tire. So even if you could get a Vmax wheel on there, I doubt that I could find a car tire that would clear. Thoughts? Comments? Rude remarks? First question I would have to ask is your rear tire wearing even or wearing off to one side? If its wearing off to one side this would mean the hack is not alianed (spelling) correctly. I ran Dunlop Elite II when I had my Motovation sidecar on. If I remember right I would get 8,000 miles from the rear. Gil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryZ Posted July 4, 2011 Share #4 Posted July 4, 2011 I suggest replacing your rear wheel with a Vmax 15" and running on the darkside . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvking63 Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share #5 Posted July 4, 2011 They claim that the bikes using radial tires have the suspension set up specifically for radial use. I've heard that claim too. I'd love to know how the suspension would be set up differently. Seems more like a bad case of CYA than anything based in reality. Any motorcycle tire is going to wear quickly with your set up though. True, hence my desire to use a c/t but alas...... (When was the last time you used hence and alas in the same sentence?) First question I would have to ask is your rear tire wearing even or wearing off to one side? If its wearing off to one side this would mean the hack is not alianed (spelling) correctly. I've got about an 1'' of toe-in and a couple degrees of lean out on the bike to get it to be reasonably neutral. So the tire does wear a bit more on the outside. Is there some magic to getting a vertical bike with neutral steering? I ran Dunlop Elite II when I had my Motovation sidecar on. If I remember right I would get 8,000 miles from the rear. I'd kill for 8k out of a tire. I suggest replacing your rear wheel with a Vmax 15" and running on the darkside . . . Great suggestion. I wish I had thought of that. I'd be happy to hear that you've done it and can tell me what's involved. I think I'll make a new thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venturous Randy Posted July 4, 2011 Share #6 Posted July 4, 2011 I would want to make sure that the sidecar and the rear bike tire are the same, as in bias-ply. Technically, that are on the same axle. RandyA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twigg Posted July 4, 2011 Share #7 Posted July 4, 2011 Would this help? http://farm1.static.flickr.com/1/1091480_6d382d4e9a_o.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuckShot Posted July 4, 2011 Share #8 Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) I've got about an 1'' of toe-in and a couple degrees of lean out on the bike to get it to be reasonably neutral. So the tire does wear a bit more on the outside. Is there some magic to getting a vertical bike with neutral steering? Man, its been years sence I messed with this, so I dug some old paperwork out. Sounds like your close. Remember, this paperwork is for a Motorvation sidecar with torsion adjuster. Toe in--the distance at (B) rear should be 1/2" to 3/4" more than the distance at (A) front, Measure from tire center lines directly below the axles out to the straight edge along sidcar tire. For lean out---If the sidecare is pullling to the right--the lean out of the motorcycle will need to be increased. If its pulling to the left the lean out will need to be decreased. 1/2" to 1" = 1 degree to 2 degree. This is measured using a carpenters square on floor and against tire, then measure at top of tire (sidewall) My only other thought is--are you riding this alone? You may have to add some weight to the sidecar to make it track alittle straighter. With a passenger, that adds the weight. I've seen people use dog food bags, sand bags, etc. The torsion adjuster on the Motorvation adjusts to compensate for not having a passenger or extra weight in the sidecar. One of the reasons I went with it. Oh and I am in a very slow process of rebuilding the sidecar to mount back on my bike. Don't see them as much as you used to with trikes on the road now. If you still have problems, I would suggest calling the manufacturer and ask for some help. I called Motorvation this spring for advice. They were a great help and said to call anytime. Hope this helps. Edited July 4, 2011 by BuckShot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barend Posted July 5, 2011 Share #9 Posted July 5, 2011 An inch of toe in???? WOW!!! I'm running probably about an 1/8th, but then I've got me a totally different animal then you do. Let me add this, I had the rig tuned rock solid and I could run 80mph and take my hands of the handle bars, 'cause my sidecar tire was shot in about 3K miles. Re-tuned to my current set up and I'm golden. Might want to check that set up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvking63 Posted July 5, 2011 Author Share #10 Posted July 5, 2011 An inch of toe in???? WOW!!! I'm running probably about an 1/8th, but then I've got me a totally different animal then you do. California Sidecar recommends as little toe as possible but says it usually ends up in the 3/4" to 1 1/4" range. Back to the topic at hand, assuming a c/t is not an option, what tire should run on this tugboat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bongobobny Posted July 5, 2011 Share #11 Posted July 5, 2011 My suggestion would be E3's... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvking63 Posted July 5, 2011 Author Share #12 Posted July 5, 2011 My suggestion would be E3's... That's what I'm thinking unless someone gives compelling reason to use something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stroker ace Posted July 5, 2011 Share #13 Posted July 5, 2011 A lot of the wingers here run the Kumho Estes 195/55-16 on the rear dont know if it will fit on yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvking63 Posted July 5, 2011 Author Share #14 Posted July 5, 2011 (edited) A lot of the wingers here run the Kumho Estes 195/55-16 on the rear dont know if it will fit on yours. Thanks for the info but that won't work. The stock VR tire is a 140/90-16 and a 195/55-16 is 2'' wider and there isn't room for it. I'll have to look to see if the come in smaller sizes though. EDIT: I didn't realize that the Kumho was a car tire. Edited July 5, 2011 by tvking63 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twigg Posted July 5, 2011 Share #15 Posted July 5, 2011 I feel you pain. I'd love to try a CT on my VR, but I just can't find one that will fit. Swapping out the rear end isn't an attractive option either. So I stick with the Bridgestone Spitfire II. It wears well, grips decently, it's a Bridgestone and it's cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvking63 Posted July 7, 2011 Author Share #16 Posted July 7, 2011 I feel you pain. So I stick with the Bridgestone Spitfire II. It wears well, grips decently, it's a Bridgestone and it's cheap. The Spitfire has a great price point but has a load rating of 71, same as the 404. I was hoping to move to something with a higher rating. The E3's are 78's. That's 176 lbs higher load rating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twigg Posted July 7, 2011 Share #17 Posted July 7, 2011 The Spitfire has a great price point but has a load rating of 71, same as the 404. I was hoping to move to something with a higher rating. The E3's are 78's. That's 176 lbs higher load rating. That's a good point. OTOH, the VR only has a 430lb carrying capacity, so exceeding the Spitfire load rating probably exceeds the vehicle load rating too. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvking63 Posted July 7, 2011 Author Share #18 Posted July 7, 2011 That's a good point. OTOH, the VR only has a 430lb carrying capacity, so exceeding the Spitfire load rating probably exceeds the vehicle load rating too. Hadn't thought of that. But I'm not sure how all that figures into a sidecar rig. I have no idea how much weight the SC adds to the rear tire, but it would seem like it would be better to use as high a load rating as I can get, no? But that does come at a cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twigg Posted July 7, 2011 Share #19 Posted July 7, 2011 I would think that the downforce exerted by the sidecar is pretty low really. I've lugged them around with smaller bikes than these. Pity we can't get a car tire that fits. You are probably wise to get the higher rated tire, it certainly won't hurt any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camos Posted July 7, 2011 Share #20 Posted July 7, 2011 So I stick with the Bridgestone Spitfire II. It wears well, grips decently, it's a Bridgestone and it's cheap. This may be a bit off topic and it is not about a Venture but I got 18000 miles from a Spitfire II on the rear of my Virago and a bit more from the front tire. I switched both tires over to the E3 and noticed a dramatic improvement in handling. No more tracking on steel bridge decks (front) and no more dancing on tar snakes in the wet (both). The E3 might cost a bit more but should give better value with a longer life and better handling characteristics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvking63 Posted July 8, 2011 Author Share #21 Posted July 8, 2011 Thanks for all the input guys. From a price standpoint the Spitfires were temping, but that's partly why I've been running 404's. So I bit the bullet and ordered some E3's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GilbertHall Posted July 12, 2011 Share #22 Posted July 12, 2011 Just changed out a Bridgestone that had 11k on it, but I don't have a hack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvking63 Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share #23 Posted July 12, 2011 Just changed out a Bridgestone that had 11k on it, but I don't have a hack. I have the E3's coming, but I may have to try the Bridgestones next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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