phertwo Posted June 9, 2011 #1 Posted June 9, 2011 Hello everyone, Before I start... 2005 RSTD, 50,000km. The sum of it is that my charging system is no longer working. I started it up at work a few days ago, seemed fine. Rode to the gas station, filled up, then all I heard was clicks and a slow single turn over of the engine before it died. I suspected that my old battery was,, well, old, so I replaced it with a new battery. Then the other day I went for a good ride and basically the same thing happened. I shut the bike down for a moment but couldn't get it fired back up. Both times I have to get a boost to get the bike fired up and back home. So my next step was to read through what I could on ventureriders.org to diagnose the problem. So far I have pulled the regulator/rectifier that sits right in front of the oil filter (what a complete pain in the butt to get out, had to loosen up the radiator and fight with it some to get the tools in there..) I checked the connection/pins and they look just fine, nothing burnt up. I am going to dig into the seat/battery area to check those wires tonight, see if I can spot some damage of any kind. Bar that, what should I be considering as a possible fix? I was thinking of getting the high output stator from Buckeye (I figure I could use it since I have a handlebar radio, tach, heated gloves, alarm system, sometimes my gps is plugged in as well). I figure if I can't see any damaged/loose wires and the r/r looks fine, then the stator might be suspect. I can replace/upgrade it, if it doesn't fix the problem then at least I have more power production.. Question: If I do replace the stator with the Buckeye, should I get a replacement Regulator/Rectifier as well? Is there a special high output R/R that goes with the high output stator? Does Buckeye sell one? I appreciate any comments and feedback! It's ashamed that the weather is perfect and I'm riding in my car. Having the windows down just isn't the same.. Thanks~!
Squidley Posted June 9, 2011 #2 Posted June 9, 2011 Look at the regulator in front, make sure that the connector plug is in good shape. I had one get hot and melt the plug, I replaced it with a stock Yamaha one after trying an aftermarket that just turned out to be a disaster and a PITA. Also make sure that all your connections from the battery are clean and tight. I have used the Buckeye stator on 2 Ventures 1 RSV and 1 1st gen, they chraged well enough, but I went through hell getting the wires to seal coming through the side cover. For this reason alone I will not purchase another one. Ricks Motorsports http://www.ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/aboutus.php sells an upgraded stator and this is what I will try on the next one I swap out.
Condor Posted June 9, 2011 #3 Posted June 9, 2011 Did you happen to check the volts at the battery posts while running?? And if so what were you getting??
phertwo Posted June 9, 2011 Author #4 Posted June 9, 2011 Thanks Squidley, the regulator plug looks perfect really. Is there any way to actually check the regulator to see if it is working or damaged? Can I use my multimeter to check it? I'm not sure of the internal circuitry, but I would think its a series of diodes? I've been reading about these oil leaks and that does make me a little concerned. However, I do work for a gasket and rubber company, so I may be able to find a material that can do the job. Condor, I set the voltmeter and got... 12.9V before staring 12.74 when turned to on and turned the engine kill switch to run. 12.53 when turning over 12.53 when idling 12.53 when reved 12.71 when turned off Doesn't look good does it..
Stache Posted June 9, 2011 #5 Posted June 9, 2011 When was the machine originally purchased? If it was even a one year orphan there may still be warranty?
phertwo Posted June 9, 2011 Author #6 Posted June 9, 2011 Good point Barnes, I honestly don't know. I bought it used last year. I should look at the paper work that I stuffed into a folder and filed away. For now I will continue my quest. I'm thinking either a bad connection, melted wire or fried stator..
Condor Posted June 9, 2011 #7 Posted June 9, 2011 Thanks Squidley, the regulator plug looks perfect really. Is there any way to actually check the regulator to see if it is working or damaged? Can I use my multimeter to check it? I'm not sure of the internal circuitry, but I would think its a series of diodes? I've been reading about these oil leaks and that does make me a little concerned. However, I do work for a gasket and rubber company, so I may be able to find a material that can do the job. Condor, I set the voltmeter and got... 12.9V before staring 12.74 when turned to on and turned the engine kill switch to run. 12.53 when turning over 12.53 when idling 12.53 when reved 12.71 when turned off Doesn't look good does it.. Nope...don't look good. Although I'm surprised that the voltage didn't drop more while turning over?? This is a little related. The rectifyer on my '83 looked fine but was doing the same thing. Swapped it out for another 'stash' unit and it was good to go. Just for kicks and giggles I think I'd try another retifyer before going for the juggler...
phertwo Posted June 9, 2011 Author #8 Posted June 9, 2011 Sorry Condor, I was going on memory. I think it went down to 12.19 when turning over. Took quite a while to turn over too ~ 3 to 4 seconds. I guess I will price out a new rectifier at the local yamaha shop. It's probably more likely that that is what has failed as opposed to the stator. I wonder if they would be so kind to let me try a new one before I buy it... that's probably asking too much for a dealer.
phertwo Posted June 9, 2011 Author #9 Posted June 9, 2011 $165 for the regulator, they have to order it in. I guess there is no way to test the regulator that I have with a multimeter?
ediddy Posted June 9, 2011 #10 Posted June 9, 2011 When you find your problem, let me know. My bike was fine until 2 years ago. Battery went bad. Bought new one. A week later it was dead. Dealer gave me a new battery at no charge, a few weeks later it was dead. Left with dealer for 2 weeks and they checked everything and came to conclusion rectifier was bad. Replaced retifier under warranty and put in new battery. Everything fine until I let bike set up for a week and then dead battery again. Bike is now out of warranty. Took to dealer and left it for a week. Dealer said checked everything and couldn't find a problem so thought battery was defective so put in a new battery. Didn't cost anything even though now out of warranty because had issue while still in warranty. Parked bike in gargage on a friday and didn't ride until monday. Battery weak and wouldn't turn over the engine enough to start. Put on battery tender for two days and bike started. If I let bike set for 2 or more days won't start, so I put on battery tender if not riding for a few days. Dont' know what else to do.
LilBeaver Posted June 9, 2011 #11 Posted June 9, 2011 (edited) ... 12.9V before staring 12.74 when turned to on and turned the engine kill switch to run. 12.53 when turning over 12.53 when idling 12.53 when reved 12.71 when turned off ... I am no expert but a while ago, I too played this game so maybe I can be of some help. Lots of good ideas so far and I am just going to sort of type as I think through this so I may repeat some of the ideas/suggestions above but I will try to be very complete as well. First and foremost if you did not start these tests with a fully charged battery, your results (as presented) are mostly inconclusive. A few of the numbers stick out. 1) You claim no voltage difference between 'idling' and when the motor is 'revved'. This IS a problem - UNLESS you didn't rev it very much. On the RSV, (which I believe the 05 and later RSTDs are more or less identical except for some of the cosmetics) the motor needs to be turning at least 5000 RPM or so to give the meaningful reading. Turning at 5k RPM a properly functioning system should read a [terminal] voltage (measured at the leads on the battery) somewhere between 13.6V and 14.2V. This should actually be more or less independent of the charge state of your battery. 2) Condor already mentioned (and you already addressed) the no drop when cranking, so no further comment is necessary. Your 'lack of power' situation was repeated, which does strongly suggest a real problem with the charging system. Off the top of my head I can only come up with a few likely culprits (in no particular order): 1) Bad stator 2) Improperly functioning rectifier/regulator 3) Poor connection to ground 4) Bad/issue with battery In order to help pinpoint your problem the following checks would be quite helpful, again in no particular order: 1) Change out the battery with a fresh and fully charged one (You have already done this, obviously, and the problem still persists - which either you got a 'dud' replacement [unlikely, but possible] or the problem still remains) 2) Check the resistance of the stator coils. This is done via the 'white' connector plug located in front of the battery box and fuel filter about halfway down the frame. I was able to see mine after flushing the wiring out with electrical cleaner. It was a bit of a pain to get to, but I could reach it without removing any parts (On second thought I may have had the three 'battery covers' already off and out of the way for this). The resistance should be somewhere between 0.279 and 0.341 OHms (when the ambient temperature is near 70F). 3) Inspect the connector plug for the regulator/rectifier unit and make sure that the pins make a firm connection in the female side of the plug. Some have found (me included) that the connection is very loose and thereby causes some problems with the unit actually functioning properly. Just because you do not see any evidence of 'burnt connectors' or any discoloration does not necessarily mean that the connection is good (unfortunately). You should feel a 'firm' connection between the male and female ends of the harness. 4) Inspect the main grounds (down by the horn, under the front plastic 'collar' on the brake side of the bike just below the ignition switch ***MAY be different on the RSTD) to the bike as well as the main connections at the fuse boxes (ESPECIALLY the main 30A fuse). Make sure all of the connections are CLEAN and reasonably sung. 5) You could also do a check for any trace of AC voltage across the battery terminals; this would definitely indicate that you've got a problem with the regulator/rectifier unit. 6) repeat your voltage measurements ensuring that you start with a fully charged battery and that your 'rev test' involves revving the motor to at least 5k RPM. The most critical (and easiest) to do to be reasonably conclusive is numbers 2, 5 and 6. Although important, a little more difficult would be number 3 and 4. If you do at least 2, 5 and 6 and report back with your findings we can help confirm your problem from there. Best of luck to you, I hope this was helpful. Edited June 10, 2011 by LilBeaver Edits marked in BOLD. C.R.S. is kicking in.
LilBeaver Posted June 9, 2011 #12 Posted June 9, 2011 ... I guess there is no way to test the regulator that I have with a multimeter? $165 - you are getting RIPPED. I got ripped when I ordered mine and it was far less than 165. That was partially because I had it overnighted and footed the 40 or 50 dollars for the expedited shipping. There sort-of is - I will need to try to find it, but I wrote something up on this a while ago because I went through mine and tried to figure it out. The EASIEST way is to do the revved voltage check (rev to 5k RPM and check - should read 13.8 to 14.2V) and also check for any evidence of an AC signal at the battery cables. The AC signal can only be produced by a bad regulator/rectifier or, much less likely, some weird short in the system between the stator and the regulator/rectifier. The bench test for the RR unit that I have come up with checks the functionality of the diodes within but I cannot say that it is all that conclusive otherwise. I'll try to find that write up and get back to you (it may be later this evening though as if I didn't post my write up it is likely on my other computer).
calperin Posted June 9, 2011 #13 Posted June 9, 2011 $165 for the regulator, they have to order it in. I guess there is no way to test the regulator that I have with a multimeter? No, you need a clamp DC Amperimeter to do that. Regards, Calperin
Condor Posted June 9, 2011 #14 Posted June 9, 2011 Sorry Condor, I was going on memory. I think it went down to 12.19 when turning over. Took quite a while to turn over too ~ 3 to 4 seconds. I guess I will price out a new rectifier at the local yamaha shop. It's probably more likely that that is what has failed as opposed to the stator. I wonder if they would be so kind to let me try a new one before I buy it... that's probably asking too much for a dealer. $165 for the regulator, they have to order it in. I guess there is no way to test the regulator that I have with a multimeter? I'd try to pick one up off Ebay for cheap that's guarantee'd not to be DOA. Swap it out and hope for the best. If nothing else it'll make a good addition to your 'stash' bucket.. On the 1stGen's there are three white wires coming out of the stator that go in and out of a connector under the side cover. Not sure if the 2ndGen has anything similar, but that connector will get dirty, get hot, and melt. Might be another place to look?? If it is on the 2-Gen, removing the connector and soldering the wires together will get things running again.
phertwo Posted June 9, 2011 Author #15 Posted June 9, 2011 Thanks guys! This gives me some solid direction in diagnosing the problem. I will check all of this tonight and report back. And yes, Yamaha Canada rips us Canadians off bid time. I think its some kind of mandatory policy to ship the parts to the moon and back 3 times, hence why everything is so expensive. A few notes, my battery was fully charged up before I did the test with the voltmeter. And I did rev it at multiple rpms but didn't see a change on the voltmeter. I proabably got near 5000 rpms, but I disconnected the tach and every nonessential accessory electronic device. Before the failure I was getting something like 13.4V at normal idle. The plug on the R/R seems pretty solid, good connection, and when I disconnected it the pins and the inside of the connector look 'new' to me. So I'm going to print out your instructions LilBeaver and try to get to the bottom of this. Hopefully it is the same problem/solution as Ediddy's problem.
LilBeaver Posted June 9, 2011 #16 Posted June 9, 2011 ... A few notes, my battery was fully charged up before I did the test with the voltmeter. And I did rev it at multiple rpms but didn't see a change on the voltmeter. I proabably got near 5000 rpms, but I disconnected the tach and every nonessential accessory electronic device. Before the failure I was getting something like 13.4V at normal idle. The plug on the R/R seems pretty solid, good connection, and when I disconnected it the pins and the inside of the connector look 'new' to me. ... Okay, with that additional information I'll make a few more comments. 1) If you had been getting ~13.4V at idle and you are now somewhere in the 12's then that is a good sign that there is a problem. (as you noted). 2) I am unsure, based on your above statement, but I would like to clarify just to make sure that the test is done properly. When you perform the voltage measurement at the higher revvs, you should rev the bike up and HOLD IT there to get a decent reading. Count to 5 or something and watch your voltmeter. Revving it intermittently and not seeing a change (on a digital voltmeter) is actually somewhat inconclusive as the delay for the reading to be displayed may actually be masked by the change in the measured signal. It IS certainly, entirely possible, that you are simply maxing out at that 12.5V or whatever which then goes back to it being an issue with the regulator/rectifier or the stator (or a bad ground). At this point, repeating the high rev (at a steady high rpm) voltage check as well as the resistance of the stator coils certainly ought to help pin down the problem. The fact that your visual inspection of the R/R pins and that the connection 'feels' solid is enough to reasonably assume that your CONNECTION there is fine. Once again going back to the R/R unit itself, stator or poor connection to ground. ****NOTE: The location of the ground that I specified up by the ignition switch MAY be in a different place on the RSTD. When writing what I wrote above, I had a brain fart and forgot that you said you have a RSTD.
phertwo Posted June 9, 2011 Author #17 Posted June 9, 2011 Thanks Beaver, I'll get to some serious work tonight. I'll repeat the running test as well. My multimeter is highspeed and I could see the voltage changes in fractions of seconds. I also did hold the engine for a while at a higher rpm, but i'm not sure if it was >5000 rpm. I will try again paying a little more attention to this. After I finish up I will report back. Thanks!!
LilBeaver Posted June 9, 2011 #18 Posted June 9, 2011 Thanks Beaver, I'll get to some serious work tonight. I'll repeat the running test as well. My multimeter is highspeed and I could see the voltage changes in fractions of seconds. I also did hold the engine for a while at a higher rpm, but i'm not sure if it was >5000 rpm. I will try again paying a little more attention to this. After I finish up I will report back. Thanks!! Okay, from the sounds of it - you are probably fine in assuming that your result is simply as posted (one final repeat wouldn't hurt though). The next step is really the simple resistance test of the stator coils. I'll stay tuned.
calperin Posted June 9, 2011 #19 Posted June 9, 2011 Thanks Beaver, I'll get to some serious work tonight. I'll repeat the running test as well. My multimeter is highspeed and I could see the voltage changes in fractions of seconds. I also did hold the engine for a while at a higher rpm, but i'm not sure if it was >5000 rpm. I will try again paying a little more attention to this. After I finish up I will report back. Thanks!! The problem is not that your multimeter is highspeed. The issue is that you're not able to notice fast enough the changes. If around 5000 rpm you don't get around 14 V, it means that your battery is not holding charge (may be a bad cell), or your alternator is not providing current enough to charge it (That is why I suggested a DC Clamp Amp-meter). Regards, Calperin
LilBeaver Posted June 9, 2011 #20 Posted June 9, 2011 The problem is not that your multimeter is highspeed. The issue is that you're not able to notice fast enough the changes. ...
phertwo Posted June 9, 2011 Author #21 Posted June 9, 2011 Ahhh I gotcha now! Okay, I will repeat the test and report back tomorrow. Thanks y'all!
LilBeaver Posted June 9, 2011 #22 Posted June 9, 2011 (edited) $165 for the regulator, they have to order it in. Partshark.com $57.50 USD, shipping is extra. P/N 4XY-81960-00-00 **Double check this P/N. To answer your OTHER question, if you go with a high-output stator, you really should get the appropriate/matching R/R unit too. Edit: The short explanation is if you do not have a matching R/R you will eventually burn out your OEM one as it is not designed to handle the higher output that your fancy-pants new stator will put out. Edited June 9, 2011 by LilBeaver I got interrupted in my post and didn't finish it...
phertwo Posted June 9, 2011 Author #23 Posted June 9, 2011 I was thinking that.. the high output stator should have a matching high output R/R? I emailed Buckeye performance to see if they offer a matching R/R for their stator, but I haven't heard a response. Can anyone who has installed a Buckeye high output stator give me the definitive answer about the R/R? They don't list an R/R on their website.
LilBeaver Posted June 9, 2011 #24 Posted June 9, 2011 (edited) Some options (I have no affiliation with these folks, nor have I ever used their products - just throwing it out there for you): http://www.regulatorrectifier.com/catalog/ *Content removed by me* Edited June 10, 2011 by LilBeaver Removed website as per later recommendation
phertwo Posted June 9, 2011 Author #25 Posted June 9, 2011 Seriously, thanks for going to the trouble! I honestly never worry when I have bike trouble because I know that you guys are here to share your experiences and wisdom.
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