Inputs for hard start condition

[MikeZ06Allen]

Ok folks my 89 VR has developed a serious hard start condition. The starter spins freely for several seconds and the engine eventually catches and slowly revs up but only if I am giving it throttle input (which I do not like to do). I does this no matter the tempurature hot or cold. Once the bike is running it idles great and runs down the highway with no issues; smooth as glass. This is a very recent development as the bike used to start right up with with no issues. The bike was ridden all winter and never sat more than a week. Even on the 20 degree F days the bike started with full choke. Here are the things I (with Earl's help) have done recently:

 

1. Mark's Pipe collector and all new exhaust gaskets and clamps

2. Heavy Sea Foam cleaning to prep for spring and summer riding; actually I use Sea Foam in small doses at irregular intervals just to keep things lubed

3. Carb tuneup to include idle mixture and sync to cure popping; have not removed the carb rack as it wasn't an issue until now

4. New (to me) stock mufflers

5. Two plug changes one due to Sea Foam cleaning, the other because I was using heavy choke to remedy some of the aforementioned popping.

6. New valve cover gaskets.

7. Plug wires were replaced last September

8. Battery was replaced with AGM last October

 

As mentioned the bike runs great but it is getting to be a bear to start. I am sure this isn't good for the starter, starter clutch or battery.

 

Skydoc and I have a theory of the problem but I wanted to solicit some more inputs. Thanks

[GaryZ]

What does the voltmeter read when cranking?

If the voltage drops too much, my theory is the ignition is weak or intermittent.

[saddlebum]

What does the voltmeter read when cranking?

If the voltage drops too much, my theory is the ignition is weak or intermittent.

 

 

A possibility, and if so, you need to find out why the voltage is dropping. It has been my experience however that the ignition on these bikes are quite capable of firing at very low batterry voltage. but just to be sure, try the following.

• Dissable the ignition, so the bike will not fire. Connect a reliable voltmeter, to the battery and crank the engine. Battery voltage, should not drop below 9.5 vlts. If it does then you have either (A) a weak battery, so get it load tested, or (B) a starter that is drawing too much currant. If the battery stays above 9.5 vlts while cranking then check to make sure all your wire connections, speacialy your grounds, are clean and secure.
  

On the other hand going by the discription, assuming I am reading it right, I would be leaning towards the carbs. you could have

1. A dirty or plugged low speed idle passage in the carb. this would make it very hard to get gas at cranking RPM but once the engine fires it begins to develop enough are air flow through the carbs to draw gas from the high speeed passages. try taking the air cleaner off and pouring seafoam down the carbs, while the engine is running at a slightly elevated rpm then let it idle down, snuff out. and let it sit for 1/2 hr, then fire it up again. Beware of nieghbours this produces a real thick cloud of white smoke The next thing too try is spray carb cleanner through as maney accessible passages as you can

   
   

2. Check all your hoses and connections, for a vacume leak. A simple way to do this is connect a propane can to a small hose, open the propane do not light it and only open a reasonable amount. With the engine running pass the open end of the hose around all your carb mounting and hose connections, listening for any changes in RPM.

   
   

Edited May 20, 2011 by saddlebum

[Condor]

Check the battery condition. A low bttery will not produce enough amps to load up the coils. If it's turning over very slow, it take an act of god to get it to catch. Charge the battery completely and see if that doesn't help. Also remember that the stator will not put out any charge until the rpm is up around 2500. At idle a battery will discharge only. Since the motor runs OK when the RPMs are up, I bet this is the problem. Maybe a new battery is in your future.

[MikeZ06Allen]

Also remember that the stator will not put out any charge until the rpm is up around 2500. At idle a battery will discharge only. Since the motor runs OK when the RPMs are up, I bet this is the problem.

 

Actually the bike idles great; heck I let it idle for an hour while I was putting all the plastic back on the other night (I was verifying coolant level and fan operation) so I am a little suspect of it being a battery condition. Nonetheless, I will slap the charger on it tonight just to rule that out. As mentioned the speed of the cranking hasn't been affected; just when it finally catches has moved from a couple seconds to almost 20 to 30 seconds with throttle input.

 

I agree with saddlebum that this may be a carb issue and my over zealous dosing of Sea Foam may have worked some trash into the idle circuit. I just hope I can get it cleaned out without removing and rebuilding the carbs.

 

Another thought, since I smell raw gas when cranking, maybe the floats are out of whack. This isn't a path I want to pursue as it requires removal and adjustments and possibly another trip to see Skydoc (although the trip to Skydoc's isn't what I dread )

[saddlebum]

I agree with saddlebum that this may be a carb issue and my over zealous dosing of Sea Foam may have worked some trash into the idle circuit. I just hope I can get it cleaned out without removing and rebuilding the carbs.)

removeing the diapharam covers and slides is not that big of a job, you can do it on the bike. Then get a good qualty choke and carb cleaner with a straw attachment. Once the you have the parts out of the way you can flush most of the passages inc all the vacume hose fittings. I would atleast give that a try before removing the entire carb.

[Black Owl]

Check all your hoses and connections, for a vacume leak. A simple way to do this is connect a propane can to a small hose, open the propane do not light it and only open a reasonable amount. With the engine running pass the open end of the hose around all your carb mounting and hose connections, listening for any changes in RPM.

As a general rule, I do not comment on other folks suggestions.

 

However, in this instance I feel strongly that the use of propane gas around a running motor is simply an invitation to disaster. Just way to easy to have stray arcing light off the propane.

 

Better to use something like WD40 to check for vacuum leaks.

[greg_in_london]

One thing that is easy to check, but unlikely to be the issue, is just to check that you have sufficient fuel in the carbs - that one of the drain screws was not partially left undone or something (a leaky hose would not cause this, unlike on my Tenere :-( ).

 

When you turn the ignition on you may hear the fuel pump topping up the carbs, click, click, click. It stops after a few seconds or when the carbs are full, whichever comes first (unlike the Tenere which cannot do this - the 'pump' is vacuum operated ???). If you think the fuel level is insufficient and you turn the kill switch off and on again, it will pump for a few seconds more.

 

I mention this because the motor will spin more easily with a weak (or petrol free !) mixture than a very rich one and you said you had had to use choke when you had not needed it before. And yours is spinning easily. Mine doesn't, but I have a new starter from Sky_Doc to try out....

 

Or it could be blocked jets, but this is easy to check.

 

How long has it been a problem for anyway ? I'd be tempted to see if the issue just goes away. I had a similar problem with our SAAB diesel - it had been working fine, then just did not want to start. Turns out if just did not like the modern high performance diesel I had tried out and as soon as I put cheap stuff in it was fine again.

[GolfVenture]

Hi Mike,

 

I to own an 89 VR, however I'm a rookie owner. I read this thread and see that you are receiving some advice on carb cleaning. If you eventually want to remove the 4 carb bowl drain nuts without removing the carb, to spray carb cleaner directly into the bowl area, just PM me, and I will post what I did to this thread.

[Condor]

As a general rule, I do not comment on other folks suggestions.

 

However, in this instance I feel strongly that the use of propane gas around a running motor is simply an invitation to disaster. Just way to easy to have stray arcing light off the propane.

 

Better to use something like WD40 to check for vacuum leaks.

 

I've used CRC Carb Cleaner in the past. Works great. RPM's increase when a leak is located.

[Keemez]

Hydrogen.

[MikeZ06Allen]

OK folks I am still having issues with the VR. Here is what I have done so far to diagnose:

 

1. Battery checked - Static it has 12.9 volts and holds 11.2 @ 300 amps under load, when cranking the volt meter does drop to around 10 volts or maybe higher. I am suspect of gauges as they aren't necessarily linear so I will try to get a voltmeter and test directly from the battery. All fuses and connections to the battery double checked, cleaned and retightened as necessary.

2. Carb sliders and diaphrams checked and cleaned - Diaphrams are new (installed in October 2010) but I cleaned and checked them anyway. Sliders were fine as well.

3. Drained carb bowls and sprayed cleaner into the drain tube, bowls and into the carb where the needle valve and sliders reside paying attention to get all openings.

4. Checked all the plugs and all looked to have a very uniform burn pattern and color, no soot, gas or oil. Plugs are two weeks old.

 

 

Also forgot to mention in the initial post that there is a strong smell of raw gas when cranking. Which might be due to the fact I have to give it throttle to get started.

 

I will be pouring some Sea Foam down the carbs this afternoon to partially eliminate the carbs as a culprit.

[dingy]

Here is something you can take into consideration. The VMax guy's call it a 'Shotgun'. This is one of the things they talk about a lot on the Vmaxforum.net . Not quite as much as we do about seafoam, but that's mostly Yammer trying to push his stock value up. It is a procedure to try and clear up the idle circuits on the same carbs as our Ventures use.

 

The link below isn't from the VMax site I mentioned above, but there is a decent write up on it. You gotta skip over the parts that are directly related to a VMax like removing the side scoops, but deal with it. These guys really are a great source of info about getting the power out of these V4 engines.

 

One word of caution, or encouragement depending on your point of view. If you log on to the Vmaxforum site, they are not PG rated, even the avatars can be, shall we say, revealing. You may encounter 4 letter words that are discouraged here. For the vast majority of them though they are not a flame throwing bunch, just a little rougher around the edges. It is a free site to join. Not as many members as here, but they have been really helpful to me, with where I am going with my bike.

 

Any way the link to the carb idle circuit procedure is at:

 

http://vmax.lvlhead.com/tips/shotgun.htm

 

Gary

[van avery]

On page 4-8 of the XVZ 1200 manual I found a way to check the float levels without removing from the bike. Basically hook up a clear tube to the drain line from a carb. Run the bike a minute or so then open the drain by opening the screw. The gas level should be (0.55" =/-.20") below the carburetor piston valve center.

I cut the back end of a ball point pen cartridge to hooh my clear tube to the drain line.

This is better than removing the carb's. Good luck:fingers-crossed-emo

[MikeZ06Allen]

Bike is getting to be a real PITA to start when warmed up. On initial cold start the bike starts but only if I give it about 1/4 throttle and then smells strongly of raw fuel. Even then it sputters a few seconds and sometimes needs an immediate restart. I have noticed also that it idles extremely low on cold start now but increases to 900 rpm once warmed up.

 

A thought just occurred (yes it hurt) . I eliminated the charcoal canister but I am fairly sure I got everything routed correctly. So could a misrouted vacuum line cause a hard start issue? I suspect the answer is yes.