400 watt speakers?

ken · May 9, 2011

Wondering if it possible to go with 400 watt speakers. I've found a pretty good deal on them, but not sure if they are:confused24: too much for the venture system?

flb_78 · May 9, 2011

Only if you put a 400 watt amp to power them on the bike.

Snaggletooth · May 9, 2011

Yep, match amp output to the speaker rating. And watch the ohm's also. A 400 watt speaker is not going to do much on a what? ........ 12 watt amp.

Mike

twigg · May 9, 2011

Wondering if it possible to go with 400 watt speakers. I've found a pretty good deal on them, but not sure if they are:confused24: too much for the venture system?

It's possible to do a lot of things, whether or not it is a good idea is a different matter

The wattage handling of the speakers doesn't tell you much about how loud they will be in use. To handle 400W the speakers will not respond well to an amplifier that, I think, is about 17W per channel.

In any event, it doesn't much matter what the power handling is .. a small speaker cone simply cannot move enough air to be as loud as the power rating suggests it might.

For our bikes, anything in the 100W capacity is more than enough, and it's the sensitivity of the speakers, not their handling capacity, that decides the volume you will achieve.

The danger is when using high capacity, low sensitivity speakers, or under powered speakers.

In both situations you will have to whack up the volume to get a decent sound. There is a danger that you will drive the amp into "clipping", and that will damage the amp, and the speakers.

It is very easy to damage high capacity speakers by trying to drive them with an under-powered amplifier. It is very difficult to break low power handling speakers with too high a powered amp, because the speakers can generally protect themselves from this.

elag · May 10, 2011

It's possible to do a lot of things, whether or not it is a good idea is a different matter

The wattage handling of the speakers doesn't tell you much about how loud they will be in use. To handle 400W the speakers will not respond well to an amplifier that, I think, is about 17W per channel.

In any event, it doesn't much matter what the power handling is .. a small speaker cone simply cannot move enough air to be as loud as the power rating suggests it might.

For our bikes, anything in the 100W capacity is more than enough, and it's the sensitivity of the speakers, not their handling capacity, that decides the volume you will achieve.

The danger is when using high capacity, low sensitivity speakers, or under powered speakers.

In both situations you will have to whack up the volume to get a decent sound. There is a danger that you will drive the amp into "clipping", and that will damage the amp, and the speakers.

It is very easy to damage high capacity speakers by trying to drive them with an under-powered amplifier. It is very difficult to break low power handling speakers with too high a powered amp, because the speakers can generally protect themselves from this.

Twigg is absolutely correct. Our amps only put out about 17 or 18 watts. To get more volume you have to look at the "db per watt meter rating" (shown in the specs as ??db/WM) of the speaker. The higher the db at 1 watt meter the louder the speaker wil be with the power we have. To increase the volume by only 3db it requires twice the power from the amp. Therefore if you see 2 speakers on the shelf and one speaker is rated at 87db and the other is 90db. The 90db speaker will be noticeably louder then the other with the same amplifier.

May 11, 2011

It is very easy to damage high capacity speakers by trying to drive them with an under-powered amplifier. It is very difficult to break low power handling speakers with too high a powered amp, because the speakers can generally protect themselves from this.

I was with you till the last paragraph. You got it backwards but im not sure if its a typo or you meant it as written.

The fact is that high capacity speakers have large magnets, and voice coils with heavier wire, and cant be harmed by a low power amp. (Unless that amp somehow fails badly and sends AC at several amps thru the voice coil, which applies to home theater or PA equipment, and not the normal 12v powered amps used on a car or motorcycle)

A low powered amp working corectly, hooked up to high powered speakers will simply NOT drive the speakers loudly. But it cant 'damage' those speakers.

And low powered speakers have VERY thin wire in the voice coil and can be blown out quickly by a high powered amp. The higher current will fry the voice coil.

Now...some speakers DO have protection built in, but most automotive, and/or marine speakers in the size and price range that we would use for our bike, will not have this protection.

twigg · May 11, 2011

I was with you till the last paragraph. You got it backwards but im not sure if its a typo or you meant it as written.

The fact is that high capacity speakers have large magnets, and voice coils with heavier wire, and cant be harmed by a low power amp. (Unless that amp somehow fails badly and sends AC at several amps thru the voice coil, which applies to home theater or PA equipment, and not the normal 12v powered amps used on a car or motorcycle)

A low powered amp working corectly, hooked up to high powered speakers will simply NOT drive the speakers loudly. But it cant 'damage' those speakers.

And low powered speakers have VERY thin wire in the voice coil and can be blown out quickly by a high powered amp. The higher current will fry the voice coil.

Now...some speakers DO have protection built in, but most automotive, and/or marine speakers in the size and price range that we would use for our bike, will not have this protection.

Yeah, in theory that is how it should work.

In practise it doesn't ... ask any sound reinforcement engineer.

Under powered amps will very easily damage high power handling speakers. This is because they clip, which means that they can't deliver what is being asked, and the voltage spikes. The protection circuits cannot handle the spikes, but they can handle a high powered amplifier trying to over drive them ... They have thermal protection and they shut down.

So, odd as it sounds, I was correct.

Where there is a massive imbalance, and you are using cheap speakers then yes, they can be blown by too big an amp.

May 11, 2011

Yeah, in theory that is how it should work.

In practise it doesn't ... ask any sound reinforcement engineer.

Under powered amps will very easily damage high power handling speakers. This is because they clip, which means that they can't deliver what is being asked, and the voltage spikes. The protection circuits cannot handle the spikes, but they can handle a high powered amplifier trying to over drive them ... They have thermal protection and they shut down.

So, odd as it sounds, I was correct.

Where there is a massive imbalance, and you are using cheap speakers then yes, they can be blown by too big an amp.

I think you are talking about speakers in cabinets used on stages and hooked up to PA amps that bands might use, or that are used in other types of venues such as a home theater. This is where a 'sound reinforcement engineer' might find his talents applied.

But...we are talking about individual speaker units, not speakers in cabinets with crossovers and protection circuits that are powered by large amps in a music hall or on stage. In that case, you CAN damage speakers if driven incorectly.

I was referring to raw speaker elements that would be mounted in the fairing of the bike, or the deck or doors of a car or pickup. He will NOT damage 400 watt (real capacity) speakers with a 15 watt amp. Wont happen. I dont care HOW much clipping it does...or how loud he cracks the volume.

There is a high likelyhood that the the AMP might be damaged IF the new 400 watt speakers are 2 or 4 ohm, if the amp is expecting an 8 ohm load.

So no....in this case, you are not correct.

However, I wont banter back and forth and turn this into a pissing match. I've done that before and NOBODY wins.

BuddyRich · May 11, 2011

Overdriving an amp will cause clipping of the signal. Speakers don't clip a signal.

twigg · May 11, 2011

Overdriving an amp will cause clipping of the signal. Speakers don't clip a signal.

I'm about done here, but before I go ....

That is what I said!

The OP asked about 400W speakers. They are not the basic raw driver units being mentioned elsewhere. They are sophisticated, probably high-end auto speakers being fitted to a 17W per channel amplifier.

In order to get much sound out of them the amp would be driven to it's max, and stands a good chance of clipping, which is dangerous for the speakers.

The only saving grace in that arrangement is that the bike amp probably can't produce enough power to damage those speakers, neither will they work very well.

I was right the first time, and I am still right.

twigg · May 11, 2011

I think you are talking about speakers in cabinets used on stages and hooked up to PA amps that bands might use, or that are used in other types of venues such as a home theater. This is where a 'sound reinforcement engineer' might find his talents applied.

But...we are talking about individual speaker units, not speakers in cabinets with crossovers and protection circuits that are powered by large amps in a music hall or on stage. In that case, you CAN damage speakers if driven incorectly.

I was referring to raw speaker elements that would be mounted in the fairing of the bike, or the deck or doors of a car or pickup. He will NOT damage 400 watt (real capacity) speakers with a 15 watt amp. Wont happen. I dont care HOW much clipping it does...or how loud he cracks the volume.

There is a high likelyhood that the the AMP might be damaged IF the new 400 watt speakers are 2 or 4 ohm, if the amp is expecting an 8 ohm load.

So no....in this case, you are not correct.

However, I wont banter back and forth and turn this into a pissing match. I've done that before and NOBODY wins.

You don't get to say that and just walk away.

400W speakers, and most auto speakers of that caliber are NOT raw drivers. They have crossovers, sometimes built-in, and sometimes not.

You are correct about the cheap and nasty stuff fitted to the bikes as original equipment. But that is not what the OP asked about.

You are also correct that the 17W amp probably can't damage the speakers he asked about, but no one said it could.

What was said was that trying to drive speakers with an under-powered amplifier could damage them.

It is highly unlikely that the speakers will be either 2 or 4 Ohm, those are generally reserved for PA speakers and I have never seen them in cars or on bikes. They are likely to be a minimum of 8 Ohm.

So yes, I was completely correct.

It might be that you were correct too, but you were way too fast to tell me I was wrong.

You might want to watch that in future.

elag · May 11, 2011

Please don't involve me in that arguement. But here is what I know about audio equipment.

If an amp is driven hard enough to distort it is clipping. ALL amps clip, whether the clipping will damage the speaker or not depends on how much more power the speaker can take over the rated power of the amp. Also it depends on how much clipping the amp is doing, eg if the amp is clipping only 10% of the time it's not going to damage the speakers. If the amp is clipping 90% of the time, there's a good chance of damaging speakers (400W speakers on a 17W amp unlikely). But you have to remember that even the 400W speakers will most likely have tweeters. The clipping may not damage the woofer but the tweeter is always far more delicate then the woofer. Infact the tweeter on a 400W speaker system may actually be rated as low at 30 or 40 watts. Well within the range of a clipping 17 watt amp. You would be surprised how many car stereos there are out there with blown tweeters and the owner doesn't even know it.

Now getting to the amp. I believe the amps in our bikes are rated at 17W RMS. This would mean that on peak power, the amp could put out up to 40 watts for a second or two clean, then it'll clip. Remember what I said about the tweeter being much lower power. Long story made short. IF YOU HEAR DISTORTION, TURN IT DOWN A BIT.

Answering the ohms question. Almost all car speakers are 4 ohms. Almost all home speakers are 8 ohms, with a couple of excepions like Bose or Yamaha active servo techology. And professional sound re-enforcement speakers can be either 4 or 8 ohms.

Now that I drifted way of track. LOL. I'll answer the origional question again. When looking for speakers. Look for the highest decibels at one watt/one meter rating. This is the rating that tells you how loud the speaker is at one watt. The louder the speaker is at 1 watt, the louder it's going to be at the 17 watts our amps put out. This will decrease the need to "crank it up" to begin with. Therefore decreasing your chances of overdriving your amp.

bongobobny · May 11, 2011

Car and bike speakers are 4 ohm impedance. Do not confuse AC impedance with DC resistance, they are not quite the same.

Power rating is all a big game. Onen manufacturer's rating may not be the same as anothers, and both will be inflated. Here's some technical jargon. 400 watts peak to peak is 200 watts peak, which is 140 watts rms (root mean square). It's a trick in advertising to appeal to the macho in us all.

I'm not saying that the speakers you are looking at are junk, just over rated. We all know that everything we see and read in advertising is the truth, right?!!?

May 11, 2011

You don't get to say that and just walk away.

I guess not. But I DID try. Ok...one more time...

400W speakers, and most auto speakers of that caliber are NOT raw drivers. They have crossovers, sometimes built-in, and sometimes not.

You are correct about the cheap and nasty stuff fitted to the bikes as original equipment. But that is not what the OP asked about.
You are also correct that the 17W amp probably can't damage the speakers he asked about, but no one said it could.

You did...in post #4:

For our bikes...

(you agreed we were talking about our BIKES)

The danger is when using high capacity, low sensitivity speakers, or under powered speakers.

It is very easy to damage high capacity speakers by trying to drive them with an under-powered amplifier. It is very difficult to break low power handling speakers with too high a powered amp, because the speakers can generally protect themselves from this.

Speakers CAN be damaged by an amp driven to distortion and clipping...but a 400 watt (real capacity, RMS) driver unit will not be harmed by a 15-17 watt amp thats clipping.

What was said was that trying to drive speakers with an under-powered amplifier could damage them.

Not with a 15-17 watt amp on his bike. Thats the subject in this disccussion.

It is highly unlikely that the speakers will be either 2 or 4 Ohm, those are generally reserved for PA speakers and I have never seen them in cars or on bikes. They are likely to be a minimum of 8 Ohm.

You dont actually have any experience in car stereo do you? Heres a typical replacement/upgrade. And its 4 ohms:

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_107DB401/Polk-Audio-db401.html?tp=105&nvpair=FFSpeaker_Size%7c4&tab=features_and_specs

There are many 4 ohm units on the market...some are even 2 ohms.

So yes, I was completely correct.

Only when you change your story do you end up being close to correct.

It might be that you were correct too, but you were way too fast to tell me I was wrong.

Fast? ...nope...just correcting the one assertion you made in the last paragraph.

You might want to watch that in future.

Is that some kind of threat sir?

At the end of the day, ( I always wanted to say that!) what we have here is a failure to communicate. Even IF the OP somehow blows the 400 watt units, with a 17 watt amp..I bet they didnt cost a lot.

One more thing. I wonder if the rating on the 400 watt speakers is PER PAIR, peak power....wow that would change all of this. That could mean they are rated individually at 50 RMS watts or so....and could end up being damaged by a 17 watt output if driven for a long time at high distortion levels.

Oh well.

Life in the fast lane....

Edited May 11, 2011 by tx2sturgis

May 11, 2011

Car and bike speakers are 4 ohm impedance. Do not confuse AC impedance with DC resistance, they are not quite the same.

Power rating is all a big game. Onen manufacturer's rating may not be the same as anothers, and both will be inflated. Here's some technical jargon. 400 watts peak to peak is 200 watts peak, which is 140 watts rms (root mean square). It's a trick in advertising to appeal to the macho in us all.

I'm not saying that the speakers you are looking at are junk, just over rated. We all know that everything we see and read in advertising is the truth, right?!!?

This is EXACTLY why I said 'real capacity' when referring to 400 watt speakers. Many of the flea market cheapies that say '400w' on the box are not REALLY 400 watt RMS units...they may be 100 watt RMS units...maybe...and they will be rated at 400 watt PEAK in small print on the end of the box, or on the data sheet sometimes included.

Normally, well made speakers from well-known, reputable manufacturers will have the proper ratings since they offer a warranty. Many of the flea market POS speakers have little or no warranty and you pays yer money and takes yer chances.

twigg · May 11, 2011

I guess not. But I DID try. Ok...one more time...

You did...in post #4:

(you agreed we were talking about our BIKES)

Speakers CAN be damaged by an amp driven to distortion and clipping...but a 400 watt (real capacity, RMS) driver unit will not be harmed by a 15-17 watt amp thats clipping.

Not with a 15-17 watt amp on his bike. Thats the subject in this disccussion.

You dont actually have any experience in car stereo do you? Heres a typical replacement/upgrade. And its 4 ohms:

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_107DB401/Polk-Audio-db401.html?tp=105&nvpair=FFSpeaker_Size%7c4&tab=features_and_specs

There are many 4 ohm units on the market...some are even 2 ohms.

Only when you change your story do you end up being close to correct.

Fast? ...nope...just correcting the one assertion you made in the last paragraph.

Is that some kind of threat sir?

At the end of the day, ( I always wanted to say that!) what we have here is a failure to communicate. Even IF the OP somehow blows the 400 watt units, with a 17 watt amp..I bet they didnt cost a lot.

One more thing. I wonder if the rating on the 400 watt speakers is PER PAIR, peak power....wow that would change all of this. That could mean they are rated individually at 50 RMS watts or so....and could end up being damaged by a 17 watt output if driven for a long time at high distortion levels.

Oh well.

Life in the fast lane....

We'll call it quits shall we?

I'll ignore your ridiculous "threat" remark at a simple admonishment, and assume you are having a bad day.

ken · May 11, 2011

Yes or no would have been just fine........ geez.........

May 12, 2011

Yes or no would have been just fine........ geez.........

Oh. Well next time be more specific!

June 21, 2011

Just an update for completeness. I replaced a faulty speaker and found the factory speakers to be 4 ohm Clarion units. and what a pain replacing the fronts especially.

winston66 · June 21, 2011

I am amused after reading all of the foregoing, too and frowing.

There has been a lot of truth and etc. from all the inputs and no doubt there are some grains of wisdom also.

However, There is no reason, or good purpose, to be served in trying to cobble up a totally miss matched set of components or systems when the end result is required to not only sound good but to work well and be efficent to operate.

For my two dollars worth I would try to utalise the origonal equipment as it was designed to be used and operated, this in order to achieve a satisfactory result.

Therefore I would ascertain from a knowlegable retailer what speaker system they would reccomend for the exhisting system, and then with their recommendation try the respective speakers in order to ascertain the worth of their knowledge.

One other small grain of wisdom ,(or truth), consider this. The larger the power output of the amplifer whatever is used will directly effect the gross current drain ie. the amperage that will be drawn from the scoots electrical system.

Why try to reinvent the wheel, when the manufacturers reserch and development people have already done the leg work.

I realise that I have strayed from the point of the question of the origonal query, but I could not resist putting in my two dollars worth. Hope you get the stero to work.

Monty · June 28, 2011

Would this be a decent replacement speaker for our stock Clarions?

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Clarion+-+G+Series+4%22+2-Way+Coaxial+Speakers+with+Polypropylene+Cones+(Pair)/2416241.p?id=1218326044220&skuId=2416241&st=audio&cp=1&lp=3

GaryZ · June 28, 2011

Would this be a decent replacement speaker for our stock Clarions?
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Clarion+-+G+Series+4%22+2-Way+Coaxial+Speakers+with+Polypropylene+Cones+(Pair)/2416241.p?id=1218326044220&skuId=2416241&st=audio&cp=1&lp=3

This looks like a good replacement speaker.

I make it a point not to spend big dollars on speakers

unless I have had the opportunity to hear them.

90dB sensitivity is pretty good for this type of speaker.

The frequency response listed is pure marketing hype.

This marketing is hilarious;

4 ohms impedance

Conducts power evenly to keep the speaker at an appropriate level.

GolfVenture · June 28, 2011

Would this be a decent replacement speaker for our stock Clarions?
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Clarion+-+G+Series+4%22+2-Way+Coaxial+Speakers+with+Polypropylene+Cones+(Pair)/2416241.p?id=1218326044220&skuId=2416241&st=audio&cp=1&lp=3

I've been thinking about replacing my speakers on my 89 VR, for one of the cones has fallen off and is just bouncing around in there. I'm going to conclude that these speakers are a good match for my stock radio. So I'm going to order a set unless someone can direct me to a better set for under $50.00

Sylvester · June 28, 2011

No way do I want to get into the fray. This is my only experience with speakers. I changed the front and rear on a friends Venture with J&M 40watt speakers since the originals were tore up. I then changed the front on another friends Venture with J&M 40 watt speakers. They both like the sound and have not had any problem with blown speakers. I don't know anything about RMS or impedence or DC or AC. They just work.

July 1, 2011

Would this be a decent replacement speaker for our stock Clarions?
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Clarion+-+G+Series+4%22+2-Way+Coaxial+Speakers+with+Polypropylene+Cones+(Pair)/2416241.p?id=1218326044220&skuId=2416241&st=audio&cp=1&lp=3

They will work, but they seem very similar to the Polk speakers I put in, so I expect that they will be provide less output, and more high frequency response. This is not a bad thing, but just be aware of the difference.

You will have to turn the volume control higher than before at hiway speeds...and they may sound 'tinny' compared to the factory units, due to the increased high-frequency performance.

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