V-Max final pinion galling.

[Condor]

OK I sent my V-Max final I just bought to Pegscraper to have the speed sensor hole installed for the RSV. It was reported to be off a '98 with 16000 miles on it. When he took it apart he found the pinion gear that showed galling on the faces. I've dealt with galling before but not in a situation like this. It almost looks like a bad gear casting. Generally the gall is shiney, gouged and flaky looking. Attached are some pics of what he found. These are the worse, but they are all show signs. The ring gear has none and looks good. I'm at a loss as to what to do. Has anyone here... Squeeze?? seen this before, and is the pinion still usable?? Should I take the chance?? I could salvage a pinion out of another final, but will it work without having to deal with backlash etc.?? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

[Flyinfool]

I've never had to work on a bike rear before but from the work I've done on cars........

I would say that the pinion and likely the ring gear, needs to be replaced, which also means playing the backlash game.

 

Can you post some closeups of the ring?

 

I hope I am wrong.

[dingy]

I don't know if you have been following Wizard765 transmission troubles, but anyway. I gave him a pair of gears from my 1200 tranny. I didn't want to sell the whole tranny because one of the gear faces had similar galling to what you are showing here. Not as bad but some surface degradation on one gears tooth faces.

 

The tranny never had problems, but I didn't want to take money from someone for a flawed set of gears.

 

The pair that wizard got were unblemished in my opinion or I wouldn't have even given them away.

 

Gary

[wes0778]

Trying to go back in to the dark recesses of what's left of my feeble brain, to recall some of the failure analysis training. IF I remember correctly this is called spalling caused by the hard surface being "case crushed" by not enough backlash and incorrect incorrect contact pattern. In other words improper setup, I think.

[pegscraper]

I've never had to work on a bike rear before but from the work I've done on cars........

I would say that the pinion and likely the ring gear, needs to be replaced, which also means playing the backlash game.

 

Can you post some closeups of the ring?

 

I hope I am wrong.

 

 

Remarkably, I thought the ring gear looked okay. I'll take some pictures of it tomorrow in the daylight and post them.

[Squeeze]

Good Morning Folks,

 

I also didn't see something like that too often. Out of the three i saw over the last Years, two have been fine to use, one started to give the Owner Problems about a Year after we had the final Drive apart. Mind you , this was on 1Gen Vmaxxes. They usually don't add up the Miles as much as the Venture Riders in US and Canada. That's mostly because the Distances are not that great in Europe, on the other Hand, usually the Riders are a bit tougher on the Throttle than the Venture Riders.

 

 

Jack, depending if you have some Testing Time before you're heading out on a big Trip, i would mount the final Drive as it is, ride it hot and for about 50 mls and change out the Oil again. Then, aquire the (FJR und 2Gen) specific Gear Oil(9079E-SH001) from Yamaha and fill it up(it's not cheap, take your Heart Pills with you). Then go for a test Ride or two. If there's no Problem after 300 mls, i'd call OK, for now and head out as planned.

 

If there's little to no "testing Period" possible, it's either aquire another Gear Set or leave the Bike like it is for now and test it later.

[Condor]

Good Morning Folks,

 

I also didn't see something like that too often. Out of the three i saw over the last Years, two have been fine to use, one started to give the Owner Problems about a Year after we had the final Drive apart. Mind you , this was on 1Gen Vmaxxes. They usually don't add up the Miles as much as the Venture Riders in US and Canada. That's mostly because the Distances are not that great in Europe, on the other Hand, usually the Riders are a bit tougher on the Throttle than the Venture Riders.

 

 

Jack, depending if you have some Testing Time before you're heading out on a big Trip, i would mount the final Drive as it is, ride it hot and for about 50 mls and change out the Oil again. Then, aquire the (FJR und 2Gen) specific Gear Oil(9079E-SH001) from Yamaha and fill it up(it's not cheap, take your Heart Pills with you). Then go for a test Ride or two. If there's no Problem after 300 mls, i'd call OK, for now and head out as planned.

 

If there's little to no "testing Period" possible, it's either aquire another Gear Set or leave the Bike like it is for now and test it later.

 

Thanks for you input Squeeze. Since the ring gear is OK, and Lynn didn't mention finding any metal slag in the residual lube, I guess I'll give it a shot. Cody's on the horizon, but I should have enough local rides to test it. I'm wondering if I could get by with using a good synthetic lube instead of the YAMAHA lube?? Or is the Y lube now synthetic??

[pegscraper]

I got dumb last night and was looking at the wrong side of the teeth on the ring gear. They do show a little wear. Not near as bad, but a little. This is the worst of it here. Most of the teeth don't show anything.

 

No, I didn't see anything in the oil that looked bad.

[Condor]

I got dumb last night and was looking at the wrong side of the teeth on the ring gear. They do show a little wear. Not near as bad, but a little. This is the worst of it here. Most of the teeth don't show anything.

 

No, I didn't see anything in the oil that looked bad.

 

It's gonna be a gamble, but what other option do I have?? Best case it'll be fine, and worse case I'll have a modified V-Max housing I can stuff the other set of V-Max gears in.... and learn all about backlash...

[Flyinfool]

If you decide to take the chance with these gears (I probably would to) at least make sure that you have a good strong rare earth magnet in there to collect any wear particles so that the chunks can not get anywhere to accelerate the wear. Maybe put one magnet on the drain plug and one on the fill plug. That way you will know how things are wearing every time you change the oil. When you start to see a lot of stuff stuck to the magnet, get your new gears and backlash setting supplies ready.

Once a gear starts to go, it can get there quick.

 

Good luck.

[jeff1]

I work as a mechanic at a John Deere dealer. I have seen wear like this before, I do not consider this galling as I consider galling involving metal transfer, to me this is pitting. In my experience pitting like this comes from Improper adjustment, high loads, poor/old oil, and/or large amount of use. The wear on the ring and pinion is not centered indicating improper adjustment but I really don't believe that this much wear should occur in 16,000 mi even if it was not adjusted correctly. In my experience this kind of pitting precedes a tooth breaking, it's hard to predict how long before this would happen. My advice would be to find another final drive or replace the ring and pinion. Good luck.

Jeff

[Keemez]

at least make sure that you have a good strong rare earth magnet in there to collect any wear particles

 

Hard drive magnets are an excellent choice for this purpose. I use them on all my stuff.

[wes0778]

Trying to go back in to the dark recesses of what's left of my feeble brain, to recall some of the failure analysis training. IF I remember correctly this is called spalling caused by the hard surface being "case crushed" by not enough backlash and incorrect incorrect contact pattern. In other words improper setup, I think.

 

I work as a mechanic at a John Deere dealer. I have seen wear like this before, I do not consider this galling as I consider galling involving metal transfer, to me this is pitting. In my experience pitting like this comes from Improper adjustment, high loads, poor/old oil, and/or large amount of use. The wear on the ring and pinion is not centered indicating improper adjustment but I really don't believe that this much wear should occur in 16,000 mi even if it was not adjusted correctly. In my experience this kind of pitting precedes a tooth breaking, it's hard to predict how long before this would happen. My advice would be to find another final drive or replace the ring and pinion. Good luck.

Jeff

 

:sign yeah that:'s what I was trying to say.....

[skydoc_17]

Hey Jack,

I agree with jeff, I don't think the backlash is set incorrectly, I believe this is a much higher mileage Final Drive, and there is excessive Pinion Bearing Play in this unit. We just had a Member of this Forum have a simular failure in his final drive, the Pinion Bearing Locked up, and it rung the drive shaft in two. The final drive, the drive shaft, and the universal yoke had to be replaced, as well as his underwear!

Your mileage may vary.

Earl

[dingy]

Here are pictures of the gear from my 1200 transmission I mentioned above.

 

Somewhat same condition as what pegscapper said about the ring & pinion set, the wear is not on all the teeth.

 

Gary

 

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af193/gdingy101/DSC01708-1.jpg

 

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af193/gdingy101/DSC01709.jpg

[RedRider]

Jack, Put out the call for a final drive. There are folks on here that have triked their 2nd Gens and will have one available. A new one is about $800. A used one will be much, much less - and far less hassle.

 

If you replace the gears, you will want to also replace the bearings. The metal that has been spalled from the gear teeth has also run thru the bearings. I would be surprised if you don't have some damage on the pinion nose needle bearing.

 

IIRC, most final drives / differential gears in motocycles and automobiles (and I believe heavy trucks) are matched. They will run them together in a slurry of gear lapping compond to get the proper match fit. At least that's the way they did it 20 years ago. Don't know if the gear manufacturing technology has improved to the point of being able to mix and match pinions and ring gears.

 

I would just replace the whole final drive and throw this one in the trash.

 

RR

[Condor]

Jack, Put out the call for a final drive. There are folks on here that have triked their 2nd Gens and will have one available. A new one is about $800. A used one will be much, much less - and far less hassle.

 

If you replace the gears, you will want to also replace the bearings. The metal that has been spalled from the gear teeth has also run thru the bearings. I would be surprised if you don't have some damage on the pinion nose needle bearing.

 

IIRC, most final drives / differential gears in motocycles and automobiles (and I believe heavy trucks) are matched. They will run them together in a slurry of gear lapping compond to get the proper match fit. At least that's the way they did it 20 years ago. Don't know if the gear manufacturing technology has improved to the point of being able to mix and match pinions and ring gears.

 

I would just replace the whole final drive and throw this one in the trash.

 

RR

 

Before heaving it Jeff, I think I gotta try to see if it'll work. I'm already in this thing more than I care to admit, and blown a big hole in my shopping Ego... Needing another drive isn't the problem, I actually have another RSV and V-Max final sitting on the shelf plus the one on the bike. So my final cup runneth over... If nothing else I'll learn a lot about finals.