Hot Starting

[twigg]

This "thing" that I bought is very close to going on the road.

 

Lot's has been done, including shimming the valves and new gaskets. Shout out to skydoc_17 here for the loan of the kit. The job is easy, for anyone considering it, even if access is tight.

 

Now it doesn't leak oil or water ... both cured.

 

I took it for a test ride this morning and there are issues:

 

First .... The cruise control is behaving normally. All the lights are doing exactly as they are supposed to. Clutch switch is operating normally. The only problem is that the cruise won't engage.

 

Second, and more important .... I rode about seven miles at various speeds up to 70mph. It drives well once warm. On the over run, and at starting, it still pops and backfires. Suggestions welcome.

 

It also has a hot starting problem. When I got back I shut off the engine. I then tried to re-start it within a couple of minutes .... nuttin'. The starter motor tried to turn, turned slowly, not enough to fire. For all the world it sounded like a flat battery. However, the battery is fully charged, and charging well.

 

I pushed it into the shop ... that front braking is still binding a bit (caliper is going to have to be cleaned).

 

Twenty minutes later I went out, pushed the button and it started, first try, with no hesitating.

 

I am leaning towards a starter motor issue .... Maybe that has to come off for a refurb .... Am I right and is it hard to do ... removing it, that is?

[Black Owl]

Does the scoot have the upgrades starter cables?

Also, make sure the connections are clean at the solinoid relay, starter motor and ground.

[twigg]

Does the scoot have the upgrades starter cables?

 

Also, make sure the connections are clean at the solinoid relay, starter motor and ground.

 

I'll do those first .... but I am suspicious of a 56k starter motor, and it's bushes.

 

I was wondering how hard it is to remove. Oh, the solenoid in new, and fine.

[BuddyRich]

This "thing" that I bought

 

:rotf: I have heard various things for first gens but that's a new one..That outta get it started..

[twigg]

:rotf: I have heard various things for first gens but that's a new one..That outta get it started..

 

lol ... It's an "86 Venture Royale.

 

It will remain "thing" until it's behaving itself.

[GaryZ]

Difficult "hot starting" is very common with the early Ventures.

My experience and this forum suggests that starter motors are not usually bad . . .

 

Poor battery cable connections will cause voltage sag and turn the starter slower

(I have experienced this problem)

 

Many believe the battery cables are too small causing voltage sag and the starter turns slow

 

A battery that will not hold a load turns the starter slow

Test this by watching the voltage when pushing the starter button, voltage should not drop below 9V under load

(I have experienced this problem)

 

A comment was once posted that the starter is sealed and bikes with lots of miles need to be opened up and the cleaned, my starter looked fine inside at 68,000 miles

 

BTW: Sagging voltage when the starter is engaged means the ignition system may not have the volts it needs

 

[twigg]

It was the turning speed that was the issue.

 

I'll upgrade the cables and check the ground first .... none of that is hard, and it can only help.

 

Good to know that a 60k starter motor was looking fine inside, they look a ***** to remove.

[twigg]

lol ... nanny software.

[Snaggletooth]

Ok....been through this. As stated, the "hot start" issue is common. It's a heat soak problem actually. The bike gets shut down but the starter retains and absorbs the engine heat. After cooling down a bit they will crank right over again.

 

Several ways to cure it. First the heavier battery cables are a huge help. Second, doing an additional ground internally on the starter creating a new ground from the brush plate to the starter housing does wonders. The brush plate is not bolted or fastened in. It just sits on a set of tabs to hold it in place. Poor design from the begining. Very poor ground. Dingy had an excellent write up on the process a while back.

 

The third is the best and final cure. The four brush starter. I have done all three and I can run all day in hot weather and shut her down and immediatley fire it back up.

 

Now if you consider a rebuild of the stock 2 brush starter........spend the money on OEM or high quality brushes. I cut corners on my first rebuild and bought a set off eBay for about $20.00. My biggest regret. They lasted about 1 year before they were worn to the nub and shorted out the starter. It was toast. Very low quality carbon. It cost me a starter. I ended up with a 4 brush at that point.

 

So with those mods and a DEKA AGM battery my starting system is more than reliable. Not to mention I added Danos starter engage clutch to make sure it all hooks up.

 

 

Mike

[dingy]

Here is a link to fixing the internal ground path on the starters.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=46806

 

This can also be done to the VMax 4 brush starters, but is a little different procedure. The 4 brush starters don't have as good of a grounding point on the brush plate.

 

Gary

[twigg]

Thanks Mike and Gary.

 

Very helpful.

 

Cable replacement is already underway. While I am at it I'll replace the old Main Fuse with a modern equivalent ... Someone had already replaced the actual fuse with some 16 gauge wire .... They just get dumber!

 

So two questions:

 

Where would I get a 4 brush starter and can the starter be removed with the engine in the frame?

 

I can see that the front exhausts need to come off, but is there sufficient room to pull the starter back and remove it?

 

Oh, and are folk replacing the original Main Fuse with a 30 or 40 Amp? The original is 40, I think.

[MiCarl]

My 89 does the same thing (although it runs well enough it will USUALLY fire up with the slow crank). I had the starter off over the winter and opted to tighten up the stock grounding tabs, with no improvement.

 

You can take it off with the engine in frame. In my case I was also repairing a leak at the thermostat housing so I had that and its plumbing off. Not sure if you can get the starter out without pulling that.

[Midicat]

Thanks Mike and Gary.

 

Very helpful.

 

Cable replacement is already underway. While I am at it I'll replace the old Main Fuse with a modern equivalent ... Someone had already replaced the actual fuse with some 16 gauge wire .... They just get dumber!

 

So two questions:

 

Where would I get a 4 brush starter and can the starter be removed with the engine in the frame? Buckeye Performance http://www.buckeyeperformance.com/

 

I can see that the front exhausts need to come off, but is there sufficient room to pull the starter back and remove it? Nope. When I replaced starter for a four brush, I pulled headers, loosened rad, removed cooling system "T' and loosened thermostat housing before I could get it to drop out.

 

Oh, and are folk replacing the original Main Fuse with a 30 or 40 Amp? The original is 40, I think. I never touched it.

 

 

Thomas

[skydoc_17]

I sell completely refurbished 4 brush starters for the First Gens. and have them in stock.

If anyone is interested, please feel free to PM me.

Earl

[Wizard765]

You could get a 2nd gen starter from eBay or Pinwall for around $50 and it bolts right in. They are 4 brush starters and solves the problem.

[twigg]

I decided on a wiring upgrade to see how much that helped ... I shall know later when I take a test ride.

 

Here is the old starter wire, and the new one waiting to be cut to length and have the correct size lugs fitted:

 

 

http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i418/twigg2324/1986%20Yamaha%20Venture%20Royale/IMG_0525.jpg

 

 

This one shows what I found when I explored the main harness fuse. I despair of people sometimes!!

 

Alongside it is the replacement:

 

http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i418/twigg2324/1986%20Yamaha%20Venture%20Royale/IMG_0526.jpg

 

And finally the new wires made up and ready to fit:

 

http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i418/twigg2324/1986%20Yamaha%20Venture%20Royale/IMG_0527.jpg

 

I might have to beef up the ground side too. I have cleaned it, so we shall see.

[twigg]

Test ride of 17 miles completed .... it's still doing it.

 

So ... upgraded starter motor is probably the answer.

[Snaggletooth]

I can't count how many times I've seen the foil from a gum wrapper or cig pack wrapped around a fuse. That lil tresasure is a fire waiting to happen.

 

I remember reading a couple of stories about folks that used live 22 shells to replace a fuse in their cars. Oh yeah, .....that was on Darwin Awards!

 

Looks like you are on the right track.

 

I did a simple cleaning and rebuild on the starter the first time around and it made a heck of a difference. Lots of dust in there. Like I had said it worked fine for about a year until the cheap brushes wore down. If you can pull off the 4 brush change out......go for it and be done with it.

 

Mike

[Rocket]

I decided on a wiring upgrade to see how much that helped ... I shall know later when I take a test ride.

 

I might have to beef up the ground side too. I have cleaned it, so we shall see.

 

I had beefed up both pos & ground cables on 3 @ 1st gens, the slow cranking disappered. I don't know, if Friesman1 had a hot start issue on his scoot previously. Before I did the upgrade, amongst the other work.

[friesman]

I had beefed up both pos & ground cables on 3 @ 1st gens, the slow cranking disappered. I don't know, if Friesman1 had a hot start issue on his scoot previously. Before I did the upgrade, amongst the other work.

 

Yep, I had a slow crank issue when hot before you changed the cables for me, but NO issues with that now.

 

Just that pesky non-start a couple of times a year when I have to sound the horn while depressing the starter button to get it to engage the starter.....lol!

 

Brian

[twigg]

I had beefed up both pos & ground cables on 3 @ 1st gens, the slow cranking disappered. I don't know, if Friesman1 had a hot start issue on his scoot previously. Before I did the upgrade, amongst the other work.

 

Did you just make the engine to battery ground bigger, or did you add a ground to the starter motor?

 

I ask because I have the old starter cable, and it is long enough to double up on the engine to battery ground.

[dingy]

Test ride of 17 miles completed .... it's still doing it.

 

So ... upgraded starter motor is probably the answer.

 

 

Even if you put an upgraded, new starter in, consider doing the internal ground path upgrade.

 

The design Yamaha used for the ground on these starters is crap at best.

 

Here is a picture of what I did to the four brush starter to get the extra ground on it. At the time I didn't have the type of wire I should have used. The wire is silver soldered to top of ground brush holder.

 

Second picture is of wire that I should have used. If I ever get take starter off, I will replace it with this.

 

Gary

[twigg]

Thanks.

 

Yes, I took that onboard.

 

If I have to get the starter off, or buy a better one, I'll do that grounding ... Seems straightforward enough!

[Rocket]

Did you just make the engine to battery ground bigger, or did you add a ground to the starter motor?

 

I ask because I have the old starter cable, and it is long enough to double up on the engine to battery ground.

 

I bought 8' of 4 guage welding wire to make both cables. I did not add a ground to the starter. As the ground goes to the engine & the starter is well connected to it as well, so there should be no ground path issue there.

[Rocket]

Just that pesky non-start a couple of times a year when I have to sound the horn while depressing the starter button to get it to engage the starter.....lol!

 

Brian

 

Brian, sounds like the scoot is a bit "horny', sure there wasn't another 1st gen in the area.....

 

:rotf::rotf: