I couldn't let it go - High output stator install revisited

[shikano53]

I have to enter this thread since my initial thread.

 

I want to respond to some of the comments generated concerning the install of my Buckeye Performance high output stator install.

First, I need to qualify something. My son-in-law did the install. He is a 15 year journeyman mechanic both heavy duty and automotive. In other words, he is a professional in his trade not a backyard mechanic.

He did not cut out the connector and hard wire the new stator. My new stator will not leak contrary to all those who said it will. My son-in-law used professional grade material from his shop that in his career he has used countless times. In his fifteen years as a mechanic he has installed probably hundreds if not thousands of stators, alternators and every conceivable type of component found in an electrical charging system. He currently works in an agricultural shop working on tractors, combines, and diesel farm trucks of every description.

I have been told that the connector is the weak link. That if you don't hard wire the stator your bike may catch fire and burn. Why is that?

I have been told to use 12 gauge or even 10 gauge wire when I hard wire the stator. Why would that be?

 

So here is my answer to all of that.

I asked my son-in-law if there was a problem with retaining the connector. He said no. He said that $750,000.00 farm tractors putting out 185amps run it all through an identical little plastic connector. My car's charging system and all trucks cars, tractors, combines etc. all run their power systems through identical plastic connectors. I then asked him in his 15 years as a professional mechanic if he has ever in a manual, workshop, training seminar, or classroom ever seen a big red warning that states something to the effect, "WARNING! IF YOU CHANGE THE STATOR IN THIS TRACTOR, CAR, TRUCK, COMBINE, MOTORCYCLE YOU MUST REMOVE ALL CONNECTORS AND HARD WIRE THE NEW STATOR OR YOUR $750,000.00 TRACTOR, CAR, TRUCK, COMBINE OR MOTORCYCLE WILL BLOW UP AND BURN! He has never in his 15 years as a mechanic seen such a warning.

Here is the thing. The wire harness on the OEM stator and on the Buckeye Performance high output stator is 14 gauge wire, not 12 or 10 gauge.

If you install 12 or 10 gauge wire in your installation then yes, the probability is good that your new stator will possibly burn. My question is on what premise?

Because by inserting a larger gauge wire the 14 gauge wire that is still in the circuit cannot now handle the increased amperage flow from the larger diameter wire and it becomes a weak point or choke point that can potentially cause a fire.

The only way the connector will be a problem is if the connector has rust or corrosion built up on the inside. Why is that? Because the rust or corrosion acts as an insulator and the increased amperage can cause it to heat up and possibly catch fire and or melt. If the connector is clean, and free of rust or corrosion it will not present a problem. If it is dirty, rusty or corroded then all you have to do is install a new connector.

I do not believe that my connector will not burn or melt.

Someone mentioned about the position of the connector, that, and I quote, "Well, when these bikes are assembled you can't really tell where the parts might be because they are all assembled differently and there is no way to tell where the components might be placed."

When I sat down and thought about that, I thought it was an odd statement unless I totally misunderstood the reason behind the remark.

It left me with the impression that these bikes are assembled randomly by 8 year old, blind drug addicts in a chop shop by throwing parts into the air and seeing where they attach themselves to the frame.

To each there own. But I had to comment on all the comments about my stator install burning up and/or failing. I don't think it will fail based on what my son-in-law told me and the work he did. If it does fail, I will be sure to post it as a follow up. But I will also post at the end of the riding season so far so good.

Chris in Red Deer, Alberta

Edited April 21, 2011 by shikano53
I thought some more about it

[warriorhoneybee]

some strong wording but hey,i'm happy for you.the shade trees might frown but it's still a free country,well you know what i mean.THEY WILL FROWN!!!!!

[BuddyRich]

I musta missed something. But will say this. In any (complete) circuit the point of any burning or failing is generally going to be at the point of most resistance due to heat build up. I don't know what the output is of that beefed up stator but as long as it falls into the range that the smallest wire in the circuit can safely pass then you should be good to go. And yes connectors need to be clean or you have resistance which will generate heat as current attempts to pass thru it to ground. I don't think anyone here meant any ill will in their comments but may have been trying to help from either what they have read or experienced.

[warriorhoneybee]

thats right. true that

[twigg]

You may, or may not, be correct, but you are making some bold claims with the word of one person to substantiate them.

 

In the place I usually post, and believe me, it's rather more demanding than here, we have a saying:

 

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

 

You are falling short of this test and I'm happy to share the reasons why.

 

There has been, and remains, an issue with stator wiring not just in our bikes, but notably in Honda Gold Wings. For reasons I am not clear about, many have suffered melted connectors and related issues, to the point where it is a "known problem" and there are detailed fixes available.

 

In this instance you are fitting a High Output Stator. That is not original equipment and not certified by Yamaha as suitable for the wiring .... and certainly not for 25 year old wiring.

 

In that instance it is eminently sensible to "go the extra mile", and build in some security. Hard wiring the stator does this.

 

As evidence for your claim you offer only the opinion of one mechanic ... and he isn't a motorcycle mechanic.

 

You may be right ... Indeed I hope you are, but your claim is bold and I see nothing in it to fill me with confidence.

 

If you are not correct, then the consequences could range from minor inconvenience, through getting stranded, at night, miles from help, and on up to a major electrical fire on the highway, with your wife on the back.

 

It's a matter for you the path you choose.

[shikano53]

Yes, I agree and appreciate the help. All I am trying to say is that in a lot of the information I have read points to the connector and it isn't the connector that is the problem. I'm just trying to explain that you can, if the connector is good, leave it in the circuit and that there is perhaps no reason to remove it as an alternative to simply cutting it out and re-wiring it without a connector.

Chris in Red Deer, Alberta

[BuddyRich]

Can anyone here imagine what a pain it would be to have every high level connection soldered. It would be a nightmare to work on the machine. I think the problem rests in where the connector is and not being sealed is causing the problem. Soldering it removes (if its done right) the possibility of dirty connections.

[shikano53]

You may, or may not, be correct, but you are making some bold claims with the word of one person to substantiate them.

 

In the place I usually post, and believe me, it's rather more demanding than here, we have a saying:

 

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

 

You are falling short of this test and I'm happy to share the reasons why.

 

There has been, and remains, an issue with stator wiring not just in our bikes, but notably in Honda Gold Wings. For reasons I am not clear about, many have suffered melted connectors and related issues, to the point where it is a "known problem" and there are detailed fixes available.

 

In this instance you are fitting a High Output Stator. That is not original equipment and not certified by Yamaha as suitable for the wiring .... and certainly not for 25 year old wiring.

 

In that instance it is eminently sensible to "go the extra mile", and build in some security. Hard wiring the stator does this.

 

As evidence for your claim you offer only the opinion of one mechanic ... and he isn't a motorcycle mechanic.

 

You may be right ... Indeed I hope you are, but your claim is bold and I see nothing in it to fill me with confidence.

 

If you are not correct, then the consequences could range from minor inconvenience, through getting stranded, at night, miles from help, and on up to a major electrical fire on the highway, with your wife on the back.

 

It's a matter for you the path you choose.

 

Your opinion. The statements are valid nonetheless.

[twigg]

Can anyone here imagine what a pain it would be to have every high level connection soldered. It would be a nightmare to work on the machine. I think the problem rests in where the connector is and not being sealed is causing the problem. Soldering it removes (if its done right) the possibility of dirty connections.

 

You are quite correct.

 

The difference in what you are saying and the OP is that you are not claiming that there won't be connector problems. We all know that most electrical problems actually boil down to connectors in the end, be they plastic offerings or just corroded grounds.

 

It makes no sense to assert that the connector will be fine, when, more accurately, the "connector should be fine" is a much less controversial statement.

[twigg]

Your opinion. The statements are valid nonetheless.

 

The difference between us is that I do not claim my opinions to be fact.

 

Your statements may indeed be valid, but they are not facts, they are, as yet unproven assertions.

 

That is what folk react against.

[Hulign]

I have seen the Vmax stator melt the plastic from around the connector. I would'nt just solder to replace the factory connector but damn sure I would keep an eye on it.

 

As for my I was ASE master certified car and truck for a number of years and it doesn't mean ****. I constantly learn new views and new takes on all kinds of repairs.

 

My .02 cents.

 

Frank

[Freebird]

I would never doubt the competence of your son-in-law, I don't know him at all. I will say that some of the "shade tree mechanics" here probably have far more experience on these bikes that he does. Some of these guys have been wrenching on these bikes since 1983 and have done some amazing things with the.

 

I will also say that some of your "facts" are absolutely incorrect. I don't profess to be a an expert on motorcycle repair but I've studied and practiced electrical theory for about 35 years. I'm talking about complex industrial AC and DC circuits from low voltage to 13,000 volts. Some of your statements are just absolutely incorrect.

 

First of all, it is typically NOT that a dirty connector will cause high amperage and cause it to burn up, it is the fact that the dirty or corroded contacts cause a point of high resistance which creates the heat.

 

Secondly, connecting a larger gauge wire to a small gauge wire will NOT cause the amperage to go up. The system will draw the amount of current that is required and the amperage will be the same along any length of that wire. If you have, for example, a 10 gauge wire splice to a 14 gauge wire and the circuit is drawing 10 amps, those 10 amps will be present at ANY section of that circuit. It will NOT be higher as it travels through the 10 gauge wire and suddenly get bottle necked and be lower in the 14 gauge section. If you are pushing more amps than a wire can handle, then that section of the circuit would heat up and possibly burn but as long as you are not exceeding the maximum amperage of the smallest wire of the circuit, there will be no problems at all. There are literally millions of applications in the world where a larger cable is used as a main feed and them smaller wires feed off of it to supply various smaller loads.

 

I'm glad that you deleted your original post because it was very insulting to one or more people who were just sincerely trying to help you. The fact is, there are a LOT of good folks here with a LOT of great knowledge but none of us are right all the time. If you post a question, you will likely get a number of different opinions and then you have to weigh the information and make the best decision based upon your own experience and expertise on the subject at hand.

 

If you are going to get upset and angry anytime somebody suggests something that you might not agree with, you are NOT going to be very happy here.

[Reddog170]

I will say this. I have hard wired stuff together but then had to work on them later and cursed myself for hard wiring. IF the connectors are clean and maintained then there should not be any problem. But with higher current you will need to check your connections more often. This is more just to be safe. A little moisture, a little leftover soap that always finds its way to the worst spots, or even that spilled cup of joe may cause you a major problem. However should you take the time to maintain things regularly then you should not have any problems with your setup. But this is just my view. Shaun

[Freebird]

I will just add this. The problem with connectors is not always due to dirt, oil, grease, etc. You may get them perfectly clean and they can still fail. These connectors have to be tight. A connector can simply get loose after all these years. It can be caused by being plugged and unplugged a lot of times, not usually the case with this particular one, but also due to the subtle vibrations over that amount of time, the thermal expansion and contraction of being heated and cooled probably thousands of time over the years, etc. In most cases, it is difficult to impossible to get down into them to squeeze the contacts or whatever to make them tight again. Even if you can, they have also lost the spring tension that they had when they were new and won't stay tight. While they may be just fine, there are many reasons why they may not be and all the cleaning in the world won't necessarily correct the problem if it does exist. If they DO get loose, you have a point of poor connection which again results in point of high resistance and that will cause it to heat up and fail.

[buddy]

How many miles have you put on since the Stator change out? 2,000 -4,000-6,000mi or more?

kinda like counting your chickens before they hatch? Think I would have waited until the riding season was over before making comments like you stated. nothing against you or your son-in-law and I glad your son-in-law is good at his trade.

comments were stated what has happen in the past on this install and was not aimed toward you or your son-in-law

I been a mechanic for over 25yrs in heavy & light duty equipment and I seen a lot of weird stuff in my day and yes I have seen plenty of melt downs as per say connectors-pigtails-sensors-PCM etc. from the factory and after market set-ups (It can Happen )

"there is no sure thing" anything can or will happen sooner or later

I really do hope you have no problems what so ever and look forward to meeting you some day

Hope you don't have to eat your words someday due to some here WILL remember what you said!!

[shikano53]

I would never doubt the competence of your son-in-law, I don't know him at all. I will say that some of the "shade tree mechanics" here probably have far more experience on these bikes that he does. Some of these guys have been wrenching on these bikes since 1983 and have done some amazing things with the.

 

I will also say that some of your "facts" are absolutely incorrect. I don't profess to be a an expert on motorcycle repair but I've studied and practiced electrical theory for about 35 years. I'm talking about complex industrial AC and DC circuits from low voltage to 13,000 volts. Some of your statements are just absolutely incorrect.

 

First of all, it is typically NOT that a dirty connector will cause high amperage and cause it to burn up, it is the fact that the dirty or corroded contacts cause a point of high resistance which creates the heat.

 

Secondly, connecting a larger gauge wire to a small gauge wire will NOT cause the amperage to go up. The system will draw the amount of current that is required and the amperage will be the same along any length of that wire. If you have, for example, a 10 gauge wire splice to a 14 gauge wire and the circuit is drawing 10 amps, those 10 amps will be present at ANY section of that circuit. It will NOT be higher as it travels through the 10 gauge wire and suddenly get bottle necked and be lower in the 14 gauge section. If you are pushing more amps than a wire can handle, then that section of the circuit would heat up and possibly burn but as long as you are not exceeding the maximum amperage of the smallest wire of the circuit, there will be no problems at all. There are literally millions of applications in the world where a larger cable is used as a main feed and them smaller wires feed off of it to supply various smaller loads.

 

?Yes I understand this. True, like a steam header on a utility line manifold.

 

I'm glad that you deleted your original post because it was very insulting to one or more people who were just sincerely trying to help you. The fact is, there are a LOT of good folks here with a LOT of great knowledge but none of us are right all the time. If you post a question, you will likely get a number of different opinions and then you have to weigh the information and make the best decision based upon your own experience and expertise on the subject at hand.

 

If you are going to get upset and angry anytime somebody suggests something that you might not agree with, you are NOT going to be very happy here.

 

It seems to me you are saying the same thing I am saying but with different words. I understand that the increased resistance you mention that causes the heat build up is the real issue. I sincerely appreciate the help and knowledge of the people on this forum and understand that peoples intentions are well meant. I don't generally get upset or angry, normally I'm pretty laid back but in this case I thought it was appropriate to comment and I deleted my original post in order not to hurt anyones feelings or make them angry. I do not agree with your conclusions but that is my right to so choose.

[MAINEAC]

I wasn't slamming your son in law at all... My mechanic installed my 1st stator and didn't listen to me and used the connector... Well 40,000 miles later I got a charging problem... Guess what?? One of the connectors was completely burnt and gone and the other 2 were scorched pretty good... I hope you have better luck than me.. I wish you well..

[Squeeze]

Wow, strong Words.

 

I won't get into the technical Side of the Discussion, because most of the important Points are already made, but look at the human Side of this.

 

 

Iirc, nobody in the orignal Thread said anything bad about your S-i-L or you.

 

 

All Comments where aiming at one Point, giving you more Information and help you making an EDUCATED and INFORMED Decision. They speak from Expirience not only on the etablished Bikes here, but all Kind of Makes and Ages.

 

You take that out of the Perspective and feel yourself and your S-i-L kind of attacked or belittled ?

 

I'd say you should think about the Matter again. All People here are out to help in any Way they can, not to attack you or making you feel bad. Not meaning they can't be wrong, i was wrong myself more often than i'd like to. But nevertheless, they want to help you not put you down and out.

[jlh3rd]

when someone makes a post on here about issues, work, or anything done on their bikes, most, if not all people on here that provide a response are basing that response on their experiences or knowledge or both.........my response to your post was based on my experience with my install, which, in turn, had been based on all the posts i had read on this site prior to my install which helped me a lot........i too, thought i could use the original connector......my EXPERIENCE, proved me wrong , I had been warned by others here AND it was stated in the instructions from buckeye that you need to solder the connection..........

so, most people here just try to help and save headaches for other people in the long run...therefore I have dodged a lot of headaches because of other people's opinions and experiences........that's all my posts are for......is to help......nothing personal........i promise not to respond to any more of yours.....

[gibvel]

Some of the biggest lessons in life have been learned after the phrases "I know what I'm doing" or "I've never seen that happen before" were uttered.

[Squidley]

Sorry you seem to be having troubles with this install Chris. As mentioned when several of us mentioned to solder the connections it's because quite a few of us have had issues with the connectors corroding and failing, thus leaving us stranded on the side of the road. I speak from experience on this, as I am one that had this failure.

 

Now I will place this quote "Well, when these bikes are assembled you can't really tell where the parts might be because they are all assembled differently and there is no way to tell where the components might be placed." I am thinking this sounds a lot like what I mentioned when we talked. If this isn't my quote then my next statements wont matter except to clear any confusion for future members. I believe that we didn't have a clear understanding of what I meant. I never talked about component placement, I talked about

the wiring harness and how it is wound around in the bike. There can be zipties placed in different spots either on the assembly line or by a dealer that had done work on the bike. This can greatly affect how much slack there is to solder the connections. Now mind you I HAVE done this to Gunboats '99 RSV, and I had to finagle the wires around a bit to get to a point where this could be accomplished. Unfortunately my rememberer isn't what it used to be and many times now I have to see situations and think on the fly.

 

I wish you all the luck with your bike, unfortunately I'm not sure how much more help you'll get with it from the group...all the best.

[shikano53]

I would like to sincerely apologize to everyone in the forum for my comments and remarks. I have learned a valuable lesson. Perhaps it isn't too late for an old guy to still learn a lesson in living.

 

I am deeply sorry.

 

Take care and all the best to all of you.

 

Chris in Red Deer, Alberta

[Freebird]

I absolutely accept your apology and offer my own for any offense caused by my own words. Many of us are pretty stubborn and such disagreements will happen from time to time. That just happens where there are so many people with such varied backgrounds.

[twigg]

Been there, done that.

 

You're not the first and won't be the last.

 

It's about communication, and Forums, etc, are a new form of communication which have a learning curve and, for some folk, that can be quite steep (don't ask me how I know this).

 

Long ago I learned something .... probably from Bulletin Board days, and it is simply this:

 

Take what you need, give where you can, and ignore the rest

 

By the way. That was one of the nicest internet apologies I have seen in a long time

[MikeZ06Allen]

:bighug:Now everyone sing along Kum ba ya ............

 

If only the rest of the world could resolve differences so easily.