Cheap collector alternative

[BrileyR]

I'm working with a local custom exhaust shop on a collector replacement. It will be two pieces, one for the front/rear left cylinder banks, and another for F/R right cylinders. The original collector acts as a crossover for all cylinders, would my system cause any tuning issues?

 

I will post info and pics as we progress.

 

Thanks, Briley.

[Condor]

I'm working with a local custom exhaust shop on a collector replacement. It will be two pieces, one for the front/rear left cylinder banks, and another for F/R right cylinders. The original collector acts as a crossover for all cylinders, would my system cause any tuning issues?

 

I will post info and pics as we progress.

 

Thanks, Briley.

 

Haven't got a clue. Let us know how it works out.... Maybe someone has already tried it??

[Reddog170]

Might effect the back-pressure and/or balance. This is just a possible. Course look at all the HD's that run around with nothing more than a couple pipes sticking out of the cylinders and no mufflers so d*** loud you have to show hand signals. Shaun

[dingy]

By tieing the cylinders together, the exhaust flow is maintained in a fairly uniform flow. This is refered to as scavenging.

It would depend on the firing order of the left pair and the right pair.

If they were 180 deg out of sync, which I think they are, it might not affect motor much.

Gary

[GaryZ]

Is your idea similar to mine as seen on this thread?

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=56874

[skydoc_17]

Here's the deal with the exhaust collector on the Yamaha Venture Royale. If you are NOT going to use a "Scavenger Exhaust System", (which is what the VR currently has, 4 exhaust pipes of unequal length, going to a collector) then ANY of the exhaust pipes tied together will need to be physically the same length. So if you tie cylinder 1&3 together, the rear exhaust will need to make a loop or a cross over to lengthen the exhaust pipe, if you want these two cylinders to exit from the same muffler. If not, the pipe of the shortest distance will cause the pipe of longer distance to create excessive back pressure on that cylinder connected to the longer pipe.. The only other way to overcome this issue is to segregate the two exhaust pipes all the way back to the rear of the motorcycle.

This is where the term, "tuned exhaust" comes from.

I hope this helps,

Earl

[Yammer Dan]

I have had that thought. Don't think you would lose much if any because they would still be so close to same length.

 

I'm looking for a replacement for the gaskets Yamaha wants so much for. I thought I had read somewhere about replacing them with a copper pipe fitting that you had to cut but can't find anything on it. May have been on that other site.

[painterman67]

Im no mechanic but it seems to me that if you need to keep the pipes at an equal length then is it possible that to tie the 2 rears together and the 2 frontstogether instead of right and left?

 

 

 

David

[Squeeze]

I'm working with a local custom exhaust shop on a collector replacement. It will be two pieces, one for the front/rear left cylinder banks, and another for F/R right cylinders. The original collector acts as a crossover for all cylinders, would my system cause any tuning issues?

 

I will post info and pics as we progress.

 

Thanks, Briley.

 

Depending on how long your Mufflers gonny be, it could be bad or even worse ...

 

What you're creating is a high Power, less Torque Setup. You need at least a Pipe which connects both rear Outlets togehter. All of this needs to be tuned in Pipe Diameter, Length and not to forget Material Matters. With the Basics you mentioned, expect around 8 to 10 Percent Power Loss in Midrange and around 12 to 15 Percent less Torque in low and Mid RpM. If it's a good System you'll probably gain 4 to 6 Percent Power on the upper End. But this is with screaming loud Mufflers. When you plan on using stock Mufflers, you'll gain not much on the upper End at all.

[BrileyR]

Gary, yes that is similar to what I hope to have made. Do you know who makes it?

 

Earl, That explanation makes sense. I wonder if that aftermarket collector in Gary's thread was tested for proper tuning. I may have to rethink doing this, I don't want to get into an issue with tuning/backpressure, and have to chase down a solution.

 

Hmmm....I'm brainstorming as I type, stay with me....

 

What if you ran a 3" H-pipe between the two front tubes, then feed the rear cylinder pipes into that creating a sort of smaller chamber. You could crimp down the ends of the 3" pipe to get it to weld onto the front pipes. Does any of this make sense, I can see it in my head!

 

My pea brain is starting to hurt, I need to stop thinking and go work on the bike some more.

 

Briley.

[GaryZ]

Most folks believe that equal length headers are needed. However, as often happens, a little fact seems to go way beyond the real world. This article discusses a test made between equal length long-tube headers and unequal length short-tube headers. The results surprised the "experts".

 

http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/29618_short_long_tube_headers_test/index.html

 

Using the unequal length short-tube headers the stock engine gained usable HP and torque in the mid-range, where it is needed. I think this illustrates that although equal length headers make more power for a race engine, most people are not driving around with full-on race engines. The VR may do very well with unequal length head pipes. We need someone to try them . . .

[GaryZ]

Gary, yes that is similar to what I hope to have made. Do you know who makes it?

 

Earl, That explanation makes sense. I wonder if that aftermarket collector in Gary's thread was tested for proper tuning. I may have to rethink doing this, I don't want to get into an issue with tuning/backpressure, and have to chase down a solution.

 

Hmmm....I'm brainstorming as I type, stay with me....

 

What if you ran a 3" H-pipe between the two front tubes, then feed the rear cylinder pipes into that creating a sort of smaller chamber. You could crimp down the ends of the 3" pipe to get it to weld onto the front pipes. Does any of this make sense, I can see it in my head!

 

My pea brain is starting to hurt, I need to stop thinking and go work on the bike some more.

 

Briley.

 

The pipes pictured are for a Vmax and likely will not fit the VR. I will point out that the Vmax uses balance tubes between the front head pipes and the rear pipes seem to be balanced in the weird muffler. Balance tubes (H-pipe, X-pipe, etc) are for smooth power pulses and these tubes are generally much smaller in diameter versus the exhaust pipe. I think balance tubes are not absolutely needed. If I understand it, they seem to improve idle and low RPM.

[dingy]

If I understand it, they seem to improve idle and low RPM.

 

 

Oh who cares about smooth idle that's going to try this.

 

I would rather it sounded like a 350 with a 3/4 race cam in it.

 

That purrin' sound don't seem to impress those zipper bikes much.

 

Gary

[GaryZ]

Oh who cares about smooth idle that's going to try this.

 

I would rather it sounded like a 350 with a 3/4 race cam in it.

 

That purrin' sound don't seem to impress those zipper bikes much.

 

Gary

 

[bikenut]

If you want to balance out the back pressure all you have to do is add a cross over pipe between all the pipes.My MARK'S EXHAUST Phone NUMBER 1-760-948-1346

that was pictured in that link http://www.venturerider.org/forum/sh...ad.php?t=56874 from above was sent back to mark because he found it worked much better with the cross over pipe so I had him add it to my setup. All I had to do was go up one size in both the main and pilot jets and my 1986 Venture trike runs great getting 35MPG pulling a trailer two up.

Hope this helps:fingers-crossed-emo

[Hulign]

Marks pipes are fantastic. My Vmax went thru several exhaust systems and none of them had the crossover. My buddy that did my carb work always laughed when he synced it because it took like 3 seconds. That bike dynoed over 130hp (132.45 in 09) so I don't think the power was hurt at all. Might lose a tad bit of torque but the bike has gobs to spare. Those pipes will be hard for normal exhaust guys to make with a bender (I know did that for 10 years.) adding the crossover makes it even harder.

 

Best of luck with the repair

 

Frank

[a1bummer]

Here's the deal with the exhaust collector on the Yamaha Venture Royale. If you are NOT going to use a "Scavenger Exhaust System", (which is what the VR currently has, 4 exhaust pipes of unequal length, going to a collector) then ANY of the exhaust pipes tied together will need to be physically the same length. So if you tie cylinder 1&3 together, the rear exhaust will need to make a loop or a cross over to lengthen the exhaust pipe, if you want these two cylinders to exit from the same muffler. If not, the pipe of the shortest distance will cause the pipe of longer distance to create excessive back pressure on that cylinder connected to the longer pipe.. The only other way to overcome this issue is to segregate the two exhaust pipes all the way back to the rear of the motorcycle.

This is where the term, "tuned exhaust" comes from.

I hope this helps,

Earl

 

Skydoc is on the right path here. But the pipes don't necessarily have to be the same length. But rather the same volume. You can achieve this by adjusting the diameter and/or length of the pipes. Being careful not to make the diameter of the pipes not so small that it becomes restrictive. What you want is to have the exhaust pulse of one cylinder to dump into the muffler right before the pulse of the next. This will help create a lower pressure in the exhaust pipe leading from the next firing cylinder. Thus helping to "pull" the exhaust gases out of that cylinder. But if you have two exhaust pulses meat in the muffler at the same time, it will create back pressure, and the exhaust will not "breathe" as well. Seeing as how the firing order on the 1st. gen is 1-3-4-2, I'm thinking it would be best if you connect 1 to 4 and 3 to 2 if you go with a 4 into 2 exhaust. So as that while one cylinder is on the compression stroke, the other is on the exhaust stroke. That being said you can also have one pipe be twice the volume of the next. Or any other ratio for that matter as long as both sides of the ratio are kept in whole numbers and not fractions. As in 1:1, 1:2, 1:3, 2:3, etc. and not 1.5:2, 2.25:3, etc.. But due to the way gases work it would work best to keep it as close to a 1:1 ratio as possible.

 

If I have any of this wrong, please let me know so as that I can get the picture in my head correct.

 

Thanks, Bill

[BrileyR]

Thank guys for the great info.

 

I think for now I'm going to repair the original collector so I can be ready for riding season. Maybe next winter I'll revisit this project when I can afford to spend more time getting it tuned properly.

 

Briley.

[Squeeze]

Fireing Order is 1-3-2-4

[a1bummer]

Fireing Order is 1-3-2-4

 

That does make more sense to me. It was taking me to long to find the firing order in my manual so I did a quick search on here. So the collector in the first picture would make more sense to me than the the collector in the picture on the right. I don't know who makes the first one, but I believe the second is from Mark's Pipes.

[Squeeze]

The left Pic is the Cat Replacer/Mid Pipe from Akrapovic for the 2Gen VMAX.

 

The right Picture is the Mark's Pipe for the 1Gen VR.

 

The Akra makes up a good Power Gain on the 2Gen, but the best Gain is at the Top End. It's made out of Titanium and VERY LIGHT, you almost can't believe it.

 

Marks Pipe is good for best mid Range Performance and better Top End because of the overall better Flow.

 

If you just tie both Ends on the left Side in one Muffler and both Ends on the right Side in the other Muffler, without any Cross over of the rear Cylinders, you'll loose Power. At least it's this Way on the 1Gen Vmax, when you a fairly stock Setup on the Intake Side. The Supertrapp Exhaust is a good Example for that. Looks nice, sounds great (and/or LOUD), but not so much go ...

 

Also, the overall Lenght of the System is an important Factor. Brock's recently brought up a System for the 2Gen VMAX, when it hit public, they had a very looong End on the Mid Pipe which results in a Look which you "really have to get used to" ...

 

Looks almost like a Wheel Barrow Handle, but makes up good Power ...

[93 venture]

That does make more sense to me. It was taking me to long to find the firing order in my manual so I did a quick search on here. So the collector in the first picture would make more sense to me than the the collector in the picture on the right. I don't know who makes the first one, but I believe the second is from Mark's Pipes.

 

Whats the price for the one on the right?

[a1bummer]

Last time I had talked to him, he quoted me $250. But that was a couple years ago or so already. Someone here had mentioned that they were up to $700 or so. Apparently he said he didn't care to make them anymore, or something to that effect. I guess that would be one way to get out of making them.

 

Bill

[steve crossley]

Whats the price for the one on the right?

I bought one of marks collectors a few years back . stainless steel at 333.00 to my door.

give him a call to check price . 760-948-1346.

[a1bummer]

After seeing a set of headers that a buddy of mine built for his Ranger 4x4 with a 289 in it, I showed him a picture of the Akrapovic collector and he said he would help me out.

Bill