need wiring help chanign 1200 to 1300 engine

[RickP]

I am swapping out my 1200 for a 1300 engine and need some help with the wiring differences can anyone help me?

 

thanks

[skydoc_17]

Hey Pastor,

First off, welcome to the VR.ORG site. I commend you on this project, it's "not an oil change", that's for sure. There are quite a few members that have made this swap, and I am sure at least one of them is going to chime in here shortly.

The $12.00 Membership fee gets you expanded and upgraded Electrical Diagrams of both the 1200 and 1300 bikes in the Tech. Section.

Good luck with this project, and again, welcome to the site.

Earl

[dingy]

I am swapping out my 1200 for a 1300 engine and need some help with the wiring differences can anyone help me?

 

thanks

 

 

If you are just changing the motor out, I can only think of 2 connectors that may differ, and you can reuse the parts from the 1200 motor.

 

1) The thermostat/temperature sender is different, you can use the on that is on the bike now. Just keep the sender unit that is on the top right area of motor. Its not really part of motor anyways.

 

2) The neutral switch may be different. Does bike have a gear position indicator on dash now? Most, but not all 1300 have the gear indicator. This is a somewhat easily interchanged switch. It is behind the middle drive cover on the left side of motor. Old one will fit in 1300 motor.

 

The 1300 motor will be a direct replacement for the 1200. All mounting points are the same. I would suggest you try to use the rubber mounts from the 1300. They are heavier and stronger than the 1200.

 

Pieces & parts internally will be different in many cases. Clutch, water pump, transmission, all have some different components in them. The clutch crankcase cover is different on the 1300, won't interchange with 1200. Carbs are different. The 1200 carbs will run on the 1300, but not as good as a 1300 set. If it is an 83 & you change carbs, you will need to change TCI to newer model. Hookup point for 83 TCI is unique to 83 carbs.

 

Gary

[bongobobny]

Also, it depends on what year the motor is. If you have a '90 - '93 then the pickup coil setup is different. The earlier '86 - '89 had dual pickups like the 1200 motors, but in '90 they went to a single pickup and a different TCI so the wiring will be a little different for that.

 

You can always pick up a newer wiring harness and change yours out. It's not that hard of a job, especially of you have the engine already out.

 

What's the reason for the swap, blown engine, or just won't start? If it's just a starting issue then we may be able to figure out what's wrong and get you running again. The 1200 engine was a good strong long lasting engine, and actually ran better than the 1300...

[dingy]

Also, it depends on what year the motor is. If you have a '90 - '93 then the pickup coil setup is different. The earlier '86 - '89 had dual pickups like the 1200 motors, but in '90 they went to a single pickup and a different TCI so the wiring will be a little different for that.

 

You can always pick up a newer wiring harness and change yours out. It's not that hard of a job, especially of you have the engine already out.

 

What's the reason for the swap, blown engine, or just won't start? If it's just a starting issue then we may be able to figure out what's wrong and get you running again. The 1200 engine was a good strong long lasting engine, and actually ran better than the 1300...

 

 

Actually, the wiring harness swap opens a big can of worms if both bikes are not similarly equipped.

 

If one has cruise, air ride, and or CB. the connectors are quite different. Main handle bar switches, brake & clutch switches, instrument cluster connections, anti dives, just to get started. I am what you would call an expert on this. Ran into all these when I converted 83 to an 88 basically.

 

You are correct, I forgot about the 90-93 pickup coils, that will then get into wiring harness & TCI

 

Gary

[GaryZ]

What's the reason for the swap, blown engine, or just won't start? If it's just a starting issue then we may be able to figure out what's wrong and get you running again. The 1200 engine was a good strong long lasting engine, and actually ran better than the 1300...

 

He probably has a bad second gear. That's why I swapped mine.

[RickP]

I changed out the engine because the 1200 lost 2nd, 4th and 5th gear. I have the wiring connected and it turns over but it still won't fire - AWWWW

[dingy]

What year 1300 motor did you put in?

86-89 should fire.

90-93 will not.

Did you use original carbs or newer set?

Are you getting any spark at all?

Gary

[RickP]

I put in a 91 - and you are correct it will not fire - can you tell me why? I believe that is the last thing I have to figure out and fix everything else is ready to go - It is starting to get frustrating - thanks for any help/advice

[RickP]

I also used the old carbs which I just had completely rebuilt, new diaphram's, slides, the works

[stevej]

Julie,

Gary can explain it better as he has provided me with a lot of information; but I can tell you why you may be having problems with getting spark as I am tinkering on a 92 that has been stuborn to get running; and with the help of Gary and others here, and information from this sites tech library and postings; I have learned a lot about the tci and pickup coils.

 

You said that you put in an engine from a 91, and if it went into a model older that 1990, the 91 pickup and older tci are not compatable.

 

From 1990 on the engine uses a single pickup coil to generate the spark signal to the tci, prior to 1990 the engine used a dual pickup that was wired completely different. The 1990 and up pickup has two wires, orange and black, earlier models, I believe, used a six wire plug.

 

Someone with more experiance may be able to provide better information, but I am thinking that if you have a 91 engine going into a bike older than 1990, it might be easiest to move the pickup coils from the old engine to the new engine. The cover has the mounting holes in it for the dual pickup system. I think that this also means that you may have to move the generator rotor from the old engine to the new, though I do not know for sure since I have never had and older engine apart to see the rotor. Having looked at photos of the dual pickups and the single pickup, I would not be surprised if the rotor had different tabs to create the signal. Changing the TCI may be another option, it may work to go from an older tci to the newer one without a lot of problems, but someone with a lot more knowledge than I have would have to answer that question.

 

As others have stated before, the $12 membership is one of the best investments you can make if you have a Venture. There is a wealth of information and helpful individuals on this site.

[dingy]

Here is copy of PM I sent Julie for reference.

 

First thing that comes to mind is the difference between the 1200 rotor/pickups & the 1990-93 rotor/pickups.

 

In 1990 the venture went from a 4 pickup coil to a 1 pick up coil setup. There was a change on the rotor as well. The pre 90 had two magnets & the 90-93 has one magnet.

 

The 83-89 TCI will do nothing on a 90-93 motor. Dead, no spark.

 

Two options, 1st replace TCI with a 90-93 version, I think model prefix # is 3JJ.. 2nd replace rotor/pickup coils with units from the 1200 motor if you still have it. It should bolt right up. Finding a 90-93 TCI may be a challenge.

 

Another option on the TCI is the Ignitech aftermarket unit a few of us are using. About $200, but instead of a 20 year old TCI, it is new and much more programable.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=40414

 

Gary

[RickP]

all right I replaced the pick up coils and stator with the 1200 set and now I get nothing as all. It doesn't even turn over. Do i need to pull the rotor from the 1200 as well

[friesman]

Here is copy of PM I sent Julie for reference.

 

.. 2nd replace rotor/pickup coils with units from the 1200 motor if you still have it.

 

 

 

Gary

 

 

Yep, it looks like you got a bit more work to do yet..... it will be fine soon.

 

Brian

[Dano]

Yes, the current rotor has one magnet to trigger the pickup and the 1200 setup has 2 magnets for the dual pickups. Check the starter clutch on the back of the rotor before you install it, if it's cracked you need to replace it.

 

See, that's worth $12 for the membership right there!

[Freebird]

Guys, I agree that the rotor needs to be changed but he said that now it doesn't even turn over. That doesn't seem right does it? It should still turn over unless I'm misunderstanding something.

[bongobobny]

Agreed! More info needed...

 

Does the neutral light come on ??

[dingy]

If the starter is spinning, but engine not cranking, the three gears inside the stator cover, towards the front are in wrong.

Gary

[RickP]

okay i moved the pick up coils to the new stator cover and now it turns over and I am getting a spark however it is still not starting. I was wondering if the flywheel are different enough that they need to be changed out as well? Are the points on the flywheels different enough or should it start now? I was noticing that the right side plugs are sparking at a different rate of consistency than the left side - any ideas on what that might be?

 

thanks so much

[dingy]

okay i moved the pick up coils to the new stator cover and now it turns over and I am getting a spark however it is still not starting. I was wondering if the flywheel are different enough that they need to be changed out as well? Are the points on the flywheels different enough or should it start now? I was noticing that the right side plugs are sparking at a different rate of consistency than the left side - any ideas on what that might be?

 

thanks so much

 

As has been posted numerous times in this thread, the rotor/flywheel MUST be changed.

It only has one magnet on the 90-93 version and is most likely oriented in a different location than the 83-89 two magnet rotor.

Gary

[RickP]

I am trying to replace the rotor and I can't seem to get it loose. Do I need to heat it up or is there a set screw or something. The manual doesn't say anything and I didn't want to put too much torque into it and break something

[dingy]

You will need a flywheel puller to get it off.

 

Auto Zone around here loans them out for free.

 

I see this thread was started under the screen name of Pastor. If he is involved, I would have him leave during this procedure. It can lead to various 4 letter words being spoken loudly.

 

Picture of tool attached as well as few pages from service manual.

 

Gary

[Venturous Randy]

Another thing that has helped me is after putting the puller on it and cranking it down way more than you think you should have to, take a punch or drift and stick it behind the puller against the sleeve that goes over the crank and give it a good whack with a big hammer. You may want to put a pile of rags or something under it because it will come off very quickly.

RandyA

[bongobobny]

Ask Marcarl about getting the rotor off of Wizard765's bike...

[RickP]

Finally, i got the rotor off replaced it with the old one and viola - it starts and runs. One thing i noticed, instead of replacing the gasket I tried the silicone gasket maker and when i tighten down the bolts it causes the starter to seize up so I am guessing that i need to get the appropriate gasket to give the right spacing for the gears to turn. One last question I would appreciate any input on.

 

With the bike still on the stand I started it up and tried to go through the gears just to make sure it works before hitting the road and I could go into first and second but not into third. Should I be able to go through the gears with it on the stand - is there any kind of linkage issues I need to check first.

 

Thank you so much for all who have helped me out. I am not a mechanic and it has taken me about 4 months but I can finally see the light. thanks so much