Ignitor problem, I think it is, anyway

[Auld]

I have a problem somewhere in the ignition system of my 1983 Venture (not Royale) XVZ12TK. The bike starts and runs, but intermittently the engine stops firing. If this happens on the road at speed, it is only for a second or less, and the bike re-fires and runs. As this happens the tachometer swings way up, although this is a false indication, obviously, as the bike is in gear and the engine can't possibly be turning that fast. If I'm doing 60mph, the tach can go from 3500 when running to 8000 when the engine is not firing. If the problem happens when I'm stopped, it's easy to re-start. I think the problem is with the ignitor, a part between the magnetic distributor and the coils. I think this, because a lead comes from the ignitor output that goes to one of the coils, and this lead also goes to the tach. I took the bike down far enough to get to the ignitor and saw slight corrosion on some of the connector pins. Cleaned them off hoping this would fix the problem, but it didn't.

New ignitors are 1200 bucks! and the bike is worth only half that at most. I found one that looks like mine on eBay for $90, but it's for a 1984. Don't know if there is a difference. Another in the same place is for a 1983, but it doesn't look the same.

Anyone with insight, knowledge or even a stray though is encouraged to respond.

[dingy]

Read all the posts in the thread below.

 

It describes what you can and can't do with various TCI for 1st gens.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=50354

 

Gary

[bongobobny]

No, only 83 TCI's work on '83's. The '84-'89 uses a different vacuum point for the advance and they are 180 degrees out of phase with the '83. You actually stand a better chance of finding an '83 TCI for a reasonable price because of this. Do what Dingy stated though first, and also check the connection on the wiring harness where the leads from the pickup coils connect to the main harness. It's on the left side near the top where the side frame comes up to the top frame near the gas tank filler...

[bkuhr]

The bike starts and runs, but intermittently the engine stops firing. I think the problem is with the ignitor

 

Had a giggle.

Last time I worked on igniters, it was on turbine helicopter engines-interesting idea, turbine engine on a venture

 

The ignition system on the 83 venture is called a TCI (Transistor Controlled Ignition), as stated above only the 83 TCI will work properly (without mods) on the 83 venture, but your intermittant problem sounded to me like be it may be diode related, and there is a repair for the diode problem the you could complete inexpensively. Start with this thread

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=51767&highlight=diode

[Auld]

Well, trying a different year ignitor anyway, I put an '86 into my '83. It started. It ran. But it didn't solve my problem. The bike still loses all ignition for 1/2 to 1 second while riding, or when stopped. (By the way, with the '86 ignitor, the engine doesn't sound like it used to, although it still runs and has plenty of power, so I'm going to go back to my original '83, because changing it didn't solve my problem.

 

So, I'm looking at the wiring diagram and trying to figure it all out. What else could it be? What other clues are there?

Clue #1: The tach shoots way up when the ignition fails.

Clue #2: Sometimes I can't get the engine to start at all, if it dies when stopped. Not a sound from the starter motor. If I move the bike a bit while in gear, then it may start again.

 

The starter motor is not turning, so maybe my problem is in the Starter Cutoff Relay. This relay pulls in when 1) the clutch is pulled in AND the Sidestand is up; OR 2) when the Neutral switch is closed and Neutral light is on. I bypassed the Sidestand switch, and that did not solve the problem or not starting.

 

Now I'm down to A) flaky Sidestand Relay, or dirty connectors or bad ground connection for it; B) bad or flaky Starter Cutoff Relay, or dirty connectors for it. OR both, because the Sidestand Relay has nothing to do with the starter, and the Starter Cutoff Relay has nothing to do with the Ignitor and the tachometer. I wonder if there is a bad ground connection affecting them both. Tune in next week, same time, same station, for the further ventures of this Venture.

[bkuhr]

Thining out loud here, think I misunderstood problem first time,

 

Summary, as I understand it:

 

Bike starts and runs fine but sometimes dies while running and will not restart nor will starter engage and tach shoots up.

Question, is there complete loss of electric-ie dash lights,etc?

 

My first impression is a loose ground, big one from battery to engine, and little on from battery, thru connector, to frame. Disconnect and clean all these grounds.

 

My second thought is loss of ignition power either at key switch or igntion fuse. Loss of complete power, suspect switch. Remove ignition fuse and clean contacts and make sure tight, consider replace fuse holder if OEM glass barrel fuse-skydoc17 has kit to replace all fuses with ATC type.

 

My last thought is interconnection relays/sensors such as side stand as you mentioned.

 

Suggest we eliminate above prior to trying to find intermittant relay problem.

[gator06]

If you have to rock the bike in gear to get the starter to work, you may want to check the natural switch for intermittent contacts.

 

Could the arching of the contacts be causing a false signal to the TCI cut off circuit, and the frequency (speed) of the arching being transmitted to the tach. :stirthepot:Some times my mind wanders.

 

Gator06

[Condor]

Take a look at your kill switch. It may have a short??

[mbrood]

you can also pull the B/W wire from pin "D" (ignition inhibit) on the TCI disabling the sidestand relay, starter circuit bypass relay and the sidestand switch. Care must be taken as she WILL start in gear... but if the "intermittant" disappears, you narrowed it down. If it still acts up, you get to look at the kill switch and tip-over relay for problems.

Edited March 4, 2011 by mbrood

[Auld]

Thanks for all your suggests and help. I may have fixed it, but I can't be sure until I ride a lot, because it is (was, I hope) an intermittent problem.

 

What I did: I bypassed the contacts on the Starter Cutoff Relay. If it or any of the switches that activate it are flaky, they are no more. The relay itself is resting in a tin can in my garage. This means I have to be careful about starting the bike. The sidestand will no longer prevent the bike from starting, nor will the neutral switch.

 

I also mistakenly bypassed the Sidestand Relay, which meant that the Fuel Pump relay was always activated, and no fuel moved anywhere. But I figured that out after another, better, look at the diagram. The Sidestand Relay is still removed, so it cannot be affecting the TCI.

 

After I took away the bypass of the Sidestand Relay, I took it for a 20-25 minute test drive before putting all the faring back on. Not a hiccup, and while that is good news, it may not be the end of the story, because I have gone five straight days in the past without any problem. We'll see.

I will post further when I have more news. And thanks again, all of you.

 

Oh, and I also made sure of a grounding wire I found on the right side of the frame. I think this was an add-on ground, and I don't know where it came from. It was a wire with a circular lug between the rearmost bolt holding the side faring and the frame. The point of contact was painted, and while the bolt itself should have provided a good ground, I scraped the paint off the frame at that point and tightened it well.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Auld

[Auld]

I still have the problem of the bike suddenly not firing while I'm riding. The tach still flips upward when this happens. If it happens while I'm stopped at a light or something, I have to put the bike in gear and move it a bit before I can start it again. I have checked the odd non-OEM ground connection, and I thought that was it for a while, but removing the ground does not prevent the bike from starting and running fine. I have tried bypassing the starter cut-off relay and the side-stand relay, and neither of these has any affect on the problem. It's not the ignitor, because I've tried another one, and no change.

 

I'm now thinking the that it could be the pickup coil. This is the only other electrical thing I can think of. (I thought of a bad fuel filter, but can't think why that would cause the tach to jump up.) How hard is it to get to the pickup coil to replace it? Have you ever done this?

 

Again, I appreciate all the helpful advice I've received so far.

[dingy]

I think one or two of us have changed the pick up coils.

 

You have to pull the stator cover to get at them.

 

Before surgery, you can ohm check the coils. They should be between 93 & 126 ohms. There are 4 coils and the black wire is common. The common (black wire) is the one in the connector that does not have a wire above it. 5 wires in a 6 place connector.

 

The service manual states the orange wire is common, this is incorrect.

 

Gary

[Auld]

It was the Kill Switch. Apparently the kill switch was intermittent. I soldered on a bypass wire, and now the kill switch can't kill anything, so the bike runs fine. I bought a new kill switch on eBay, but it had the wrong connectors. To hell with it. I don't need one. The ignition key is right there handy, the bike has a tilt kill switch, and I can always put the kickstand down.

 

Thanks for all the advice I received in this thread.

[friesman]

thanks for letting us know hwat the fix was, we were kind of curious to see what your issue was.

 

Brian

[frankd]

These kill switches become intermittant when they don't get used much. When I bought my 89, it had sat for a long time, but ran great. When I first got it, I noticed that sometimes it would go dead briefly. Heck, a couple of times it stopped running, but restarted fine (just like yours). Then I was driving down the interstate and decided to play with the cruise control. I pushed the 'on' button and the motor went dead and the cruise 'on' light didn't come on. The tach dropped to zero, even though the engine was still spinning. About a second later, it all came back to life. I looked at the print and saw the cruise was switched by the kill switch. Then I excercised the switch for a couple of minutes. Problem gone.

 

Now I never have done this to the kill switch, but I wouldn't be surprised if you could take it apart and clean the contacts---most of the switches on 1st Gens. can be opened up. Or do like I did 3 years ago, turn it on and off a couple of hundred times and the wiping action of the contacts will clean them up.

 

Now that you've found the cause of your trouble, put everything else back to original.

[Ozlander]

It was the Kill Switch. Apparently the kill switch was intermittent. I soldered on a bypass wire, and now the kill switch can't kill anything, so the bike runs fine. I bought a new kill switch on eBay, but it had the wrong connectors. To hell with it. I don't need one. The ignition key is right there handy, the bike has a tilt kill switch, and I can always put the kickstand down.

 

Thanks for all the advice I received in this thread.

 

That's good info to have. The only time my kill switch gets exercised is when I accidentally hit it.

[Auld]

I tried taking the kill switch apart. It is true you can get to the switch, but I couldn't get to the contacts without possibly damaging it beyond repair. Of course, now that I don't use it, it wouldn't have made any difference if I had destroyed it. And I agree with Ozlander: the only time you use it is when you accidentally hit it. I've done this too many times myself and then wondered why the bike wouldn't start. Why do bikes have them nowadays, anyway? My understanding is that they are there in case the throttle jams when it's open. In many bikes, the ignition key is not handy, down on the fork or some remote place. Not a problem with a Venture.