BoomerCPO Posted February 22, 2011 #101 Posted February 22, 2011 I gotta throw my in heah just fer giggles....When it comes to Warranty work I have never been short-changed by Yamaha....And that is a LOT more than I can say about the 3 Harley Dealers I dealt with when I owned/rode Harleys...and 2 of those bikes were brand spanking NEW. Keep the faith that Yammi will do right by you....Only time will tell. Boomer....who sez Willy G. can kiss my grits when it comes to HIS Harleys.
Monty Posted February 22, 2011 #102 Posted February 22, 2011 If the rod is twisted, then it sounds as if a bearing seized and put excessive torque on the rod, causing it to snap. I don't know what Yamaha's stance on that is, though.
cecdoo Posted February 22, 2011 #103 Posted February 22, 2011 Thanks for the update Dave, still hoping Yamaha comes thru for ya. I know from personal exp. if they say that it is not covered under warranty, persistance can get them to change their stance:080402gudl_prv: Craig
ragtop69gs Posted February 22, 2011 #104 Posted February 22, 2011 See post # 8 at the link below. Describes common rod failure causes. http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=3093500
1joeranger Posted February 23, 2011 #105 Posted February 23, 2011 Again, I'm just relaying information and avoiding scandal. I'll let y'all speculate, since you know more than me. And, frankly, it is interesting to watch you do it. Dave I have enjoyed this thread to and really have admired how you have staid above the minutia and trusted in the process!!
Dave77459 Posted February 23, 2011 Author #107 Posted February 23, 2011 I have enjoyed this thread to and really have admired how you have staid above the minutia and trusted in the process!! Thank you. And now your opinion may change, because it is time for minutiae. Ha ha, maybe not for me... I got the photos from the service manager; a few are shared below for y'all. Clearly, the event that happened internally was violent. I used to worry when I rode about what would happen if a rod was thrown, would my legs and other parts get hurt. It wasn't something I dwelt upon, because motorcycling can result in all sorts of really bad injuries, and a blown engine wasn't high on the list of threats. But looking at the piston rod, I am reminded of those thoughts and the words "compound fracture" come to mind. In response to a question from a friend, I wrote back to the service manager and inquired about the bearings, whether they were stuck or what not. His response was, "The bearings and all looked good." The Yamaha "rta" (whazzat??) has already called him back and has a working theory that he wants to investigate. I don't want to share it, in that it is speculation(1). However, the service manager shares the theory, so that might give you a clue. Today, the dealer will dig deeper into the engine to investigate the theory. It's a bit worrisome, because it's the sort of cause that may not be covered by the warranty.(2) The service manager said that he will let me know when he knows more. He also owes Yamaha "a full estimate and so forth".(3) Before I post pictures and lose your attention, let me say that I regard the dealer increasingly highly.The service manager is walking a line between his needs (to not be stuck with the cost of this) and Yamaha's. I feel that he is being a standup guy... honest. Yes, this is taking longer than I would have ever guessed, but I don't think it is in order to work in bad faith. I was told it was commonly a two month effort, and what has happened thus far supports that view. It is out of respect for the dealer that I am not publishing their working theory. Well, and to protect myself. So now, pictures! http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5092/5469615852_3ce5c97541.jpg http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5173/5469615706_feac0244e7.jpg http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5055/5469615382_8787941d87.jpg http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5131/5469615038_edb324307c.jpg http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5211/5469614218_45ec6d8f00.jpg http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5258/5469613920_77eb6d2425.jpg Admit it: you didn't read the words above, but jumped straight to the pictures. Didn't you? Dave Notes: 1 - Who says old dogs don't learn new tricks? 2 - "Worrisome" - please note that it is presently 3:43AM and I am not asleep... 3 - I am vaguely worried that the "full estimate" will include parts that are reused from the damaged engine. I am not aware of the warranty repair process, but I hope it includes testing of those parts to ensure there are not hairline fractures, etc. When I get Roxie back, it looks like I will have less than a month before my warranty expires (April 11th, I believe). But, if I get her back before March 11th, I'll be putting roughly 3000 miles on her that weekend... a pretty decent shakedown cruise.
flb_78 Posted February 23, 2011 #108 Posted February 23, 2011 I'd be very interested in hearing what their theories are. It almost looks like that cylinder wasn't firing.
Monty Posted February 23, 2011 #109 Posted February 23, 2011 I am at work, and can't see the pictures. If the bearings are ok, then that should show that lubrication was good, and there weren't any ports stopped up by dirty oil. The only other things I can think of, are detonation, or hydro-lock. The top of the piston would show both of these. Hopefully, it was a bad rod to begin with, and it finally decided to let go. I'll look at the pics when I get home.
Monty Posted February 23, 2011 #110 Posted February 23, 2011 At home now. It looks like it could have been from hydro-lock. Did they find a leak in the head gasket in that cylinder? Were you ever losing anti-freeze, without finding any on the outside? Anti-freeze will give you that look on the top of the piston also. Just my 2 cents.
Art708 Posted February 23, 2011 #111 Posted February 23, 2011 It's such a shame when they tell you when you buy that you have a 5 year warranty then when something happens they try to find every excuse they can to not honor it. Come on Yamaha....the damned thing broke.....fix it!
Guest tx2sturgis Posted February 23, 2011 #112 Posted February 23, 2011 It's such a shame when they tell you when you buy that you have a 5 year warranty then when something happens they try to find every excuse they can to not honor it. Come on Yamaha....the damned thing broke.....fix it! Yeah, what HE said!
ctraylor Posted February 23, 2011 #113 Posted February 23, 2011 Usually if water is getting in the cylinder, the top of the piston would be clean and shiney with any carbon on it.
eagleeye Posted February 23, 2011 #114 Posted February 23, 2011 It's such a shame when they tell you when you buy that you have a 5 year warranty then when something happens they try to find every excuse they can to not honor it. Come on Yamaha....the damned thing broke.....fix it! I mean, a conncecting rod breaks in half and they wonder if the warrenty covers it? come on. Do you have a pic of the top of another piston? Steve
Squeeze Posted February 23, 2011 #115 Posted February 23, 2011 I wonder if it's the Pic, but there's a dark grey and light grey Area on the upper half Con Rod visible ?
Dave77459 Posted February 23, 2011 Author #116 Posted February 23, 2011 I wonder if it's the Pic, but there's a dark grey and light grey Area on the upper half Con Rod visible ? Most of the photos I didn't post were just variations as the service manager took shots with flash and without. Some of the tonal differences appear to be due to the flash reach. Which photo are you thinking of (# from top) and I'll see if there is a variant that could shed light on the subject. Flash... shed light... get it? I crack myself up. Dave
Venturous Randy Posted February 23, 2011 #117 Posted February 23, 2011 Wow, kinda hard to imagine that much action going on right between your legs, don't it? RandyA
Steel Horse Cowboy Posted February 23, 2011 #118 Posted February 23, 2011 Dave, I didn't cheat and go directly to the pictures. I read your post before peaking. I wonder if it's the Pic, but there's a dark grey and light grey Area on the upper half Con Rod visible ? 3rd pic from top looks to have dark grey and light grey on the rod portion still connected to piston. If this is so, the dark grey indicates a previous crack in rod. C.R.
Monty Posted February 23, 2011 #119 Posted February 23, 2011 Usually if water is getting in the cylinder, the top of the piston would be clean and shiney with any carbon on it. Water, yes. Antifreeze will form a black crust, and it takes Seafoam to remove it. Let's hope it was a bad casting on the rod, or a head/head gasket failure.
Dave77459 Posted February 23, 2011 Author #120 Posted February 23, 2011 Dave, I didn't cheat and go directly to the pictures. I read your post before peaking. You are the only one to say so! 3rd pic from top looks to have dark grey and light grey on the rod portion still connected to piston. If this is so, the dark grey indicates a previous crack in rod. C.R. Here's a couple different photos of that area, if I understand you right? The top photo below has a smudge, but it looks like a stain to my inexpert eyes. The bottom photo seems to indicate a lighter shade on the rod, about horizontal from where the rod is contacting the piston head. No? Given the shadows behind and the angle of the shot, I don't think it is a flash effect. http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5296/5469614686_61e403d18c.jpg http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5216/5469614064_389964f95f.jpg Water, yes. Antifreeze will form a black crust, and it takes Seafoam to remove it. Let's hope it was a bad casting on the rod, or a head/head gasket failure. I'm not following the discussion of crust on the piston head, but I don't have another photo of the face of it. Wouldn't it be immediately evident if there was a gasket failure? It wouldn't be a mystery or object of speculation, right? I think forensic analysis is interesting. If only I had paid more attention in my metallurgy class! Dave
short-haul Posted February 23, 2011 #121 Posted February 23, 2011 It is really hard to tell with out having the parts in my hand but from what I can see I would say the rod stretched and bumped the head and that bent the rod and it came apart My reason for this is. It looks like there are some small indents in the piston top( in the valve relief are) where contact was made you might see more evidence on the bottom of the head or pull the valves and see if they are still true. We know that it has a rev limiter, but rpm can exceed the safe limits of the motor on down hill grades or by dropping it in to a lower of a gear and raising the rpm to high.I think the clutch would show damage if this happen I would think its a safe bet that it was just a bad rod and Yamaha will replace the hole motor I know if this was a Cadillac and I was still at a Cadillac dealership I could sell this to the district reps and get the hole job warrantied
MikeZ06Allen Posted February 23, 2011 #122 Posted February 23, 2011 I believe the lighter area on the rod is indicative of porosity introduced when the rod snapped and could be indicative of metal fatigue failure although I am not seeing the striations I would expect which would indciate a pre-existing fracture. However, total failure of the rod could have easily been attributed to a microfracture due ti any number of reasons. To explain the porosity, take a piece of metal, say a section of a coat hanger and bent it back and forth until it breaks. You should see a very similar pattern on the coat hanger wire ends at the break point.
Guest scarylarry Posted February 23, 2011 #123 Posted February 23, 2011 Well IMHO I think yammy has not other choice but to cover it, not a lube issue. Why did it break is anyone's guess but I do believe the lube was not a issue... This is bad sitution that has a upbeat after all..
Pam Posted February 23, 2011 #124 Posted February 23, 2011 I cyfered through it all before looking at the pic's. If it was anti freeze leaking on way or the other they should find something in the oil sump. I am leaning towards a bad rod. If the bearings were bad (they say they were OK) there should be evidence of heat. Just my 4 cents (inflation) frank:080402gudl_prv:
Squeeze Posted February 23, 2011 #125 Posted February 23, 2011 Dave, I didn't cheat and go directly to the pictures. I read your post before peaking. 3rd pic from top looks to have dark grey and light grey on the rod portion still connected to piston. If this is so, the dark grey indicates a previous crack in rod. C.R. I too, read first, than looked at the Pics... I wouldn't want to say that looks like previous Crack, but that's what i thought also. Seeing now those additional Pics, i don't think it's the Case. But the Area between the two Bearings looks bent and twisted. These Pics are quite interesting. I've seen quite a few damaged Engines, but never saw such a twisted Con Rod.
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