So, a man walks into the service department...

[LilBeaver]

I disagree with you he took the motorcycle to the dealer of his choice he agreed to pay if it was not covered under warranty. Its his motorcycle not yamaha's the dealer should do what he says not yamaha.

 

Fair enough. I have no problem with agreeing to disagree. I maintain my opinion that as the situation unfolds it is [again my opinion] advantageous for the bike to be in one piece while this gets ironed out instead of many pieces as it would be much easier to come get the bike and dump that particular dealer, if it came down to it. No way I would want a honked off mechanic rebuilding my engine that is almost out of warranty. BUT, as you stated, the initial agreement (and my interpretation of Dave's initial post) was that they would get started then worry about the warranty B.S.

 

Anyhoo hopefully Yamaha will do you right Dave.

[Dave77459]

I got a call last night from the dealer about Roxie. The engine was still on the bike, but they had been talking to Yamaha. They were puzzled, because this engine never dies; it just doesn't happen. They were bullet proof. Hinted at: it was something that I did.

 

He had been looking over my service log, and had some questions.

 

He noted that I had done clutch work at 41,650 miles. What was that? I replaced the clutch spring. Oh. Was that it? Hmmm.

 

He saw I had put on Speed Bleeders and did more clutch work? I had installed a Speed Bleeder on the brakes and clutch lines. That's it? Hmmmm.

 

He then noted that I had a non-OEM filter(1) and had no idea what oil I had been using(2). You can guess what his tone of voice was implying.

 

Then, he got a bit delicate. He had paperwork in hand, but he wanted to make very sure that I was still OK with paying for 8 hours of labor to tear the bike apart, roughly $600, if Yamaha later declines to fix the bike under warranty. Sure, I said, because I am confident that it is a defect.

 

"Um, er, I should really get a deposit for half of that..." You have my bike in the middle of your garage. Isn't that enough? "We've had people refuse to pay in the past... but I guess your bike is still worth $8-$9000."

 

With that out of the way, they'll start tearing down next week. Might have it apart on Wednesday. I reminded him that there were people here who would want to look at it once it was open. That was OK; once it was open, everyone could take a look.

 

The timing is personally bad for me. Both my parents were in the hospital and are presently facing end of life issues. I am leaving Thursday for Michigan, so I may not be able to look it over once it is open. Oh well.

 

I took notes during the call because he caught me as I was going into happy hour with friends. I had an extra libation in his "honor," and another as a get-well for Roxie.

 

So, there it is. Hopefully this isn't an inflammatory post. Just trying to relate this story as it goes along.

 

Dave

 

Notes:

1 – I believe it was a Super Tech 7317; that's what I have been using since hearing such bad things about the FRAM PH6017A

 

2 – I had told him earlier what oil I used, Rotella T full synthetic.

Edited February 12, 2011 by Dave77459
I can't stand typos - personality flaw

[cecdoo]

Dont think you need to worry about being inflammatory, thanks for keeping us updated, I run the same oil and filter you are, so I am interested in seeing what they do. As you stated there are so few of these that "blow" that they feel it cant be their motor and must be something "you" did, unfortunately thats there mentality rite now. Bet it changes once they get inside and see what let loose. Wish you the best with your parents, been there its not fun, but in the scheme of things it will move the bike way down on the list. Take care, Craig

[1joeranger]

Any members from the Houston, TX area who could stand in your place to look her over during your absence?!

[frogmaster]

The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (15 U.S.C. 2302©)

This federal law regulates warranties for the protection of consumers. The essence of

the law concerning aftermarket auto parts is that a vehicle manufacturer may not

condition a written or implied warranty on the consumers using parts or services which

are identified by brand, trade, or corporate name (such as the vehicle maker's brand)

unless the parts or service are provided free of charge. The law means that the use of

an aftermarket part alone is not cause for denying the warranty. However, the law's

protection does not extend to aftermarket parts in situations where such parts actually

caused the damage being claimed under the warranty. Further, consumers are advised

to be aware of any specific terms or conditions stated in the warranty which may result

in its being voided. The law states in relevant part:

No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of

such product on the consumers using, in connection with such product, any article or

service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the

warranty) which is identified by brand, trade or corporate name... (15 U.S.C. 2302©).

[zooer]

The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (15 U.S.C. 2302©)

This federal law regulates warranties for the protection of consumers.

to be aware of any specific terms or conditions stated in the warranty which may result

in its being voided. The law states in relevant part:

No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of

such product on the consumers using, in connection with such product, any article or

service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the

warranty) which is identified by brand, trade or corporate name... (15 U.S.C. 2302©).

 

Boy, that's a mouthful. Wish I'd have finished law school. What really confuses me is, why when the Venture is so bullet proof 99 percent of the time, only has very few warranty issues, do they continue to question dang near everything that needs to be done on a fix-it? It really gets to feel like Yamaha wants to pick a fight on every claim you make. I am just another person that has not had a happy experience with Yamaha when it comes to them questioning every little thing you ask them to fix. Not a dealer issue most of the time, but its always, "we have to get yamaha to ok this but you need to leave the bike until we can get around to it". "and if they don't ok it, then you have to pay for us taking the thing apart to start with". Has happened to me with even much more minor stuff than this blown engine problem. Frankly I don't think this is good PR on their part. Supper warranty but if you have to fight and pull teeth every time you need something fixed it kind of ruins the whole thing. I guess I'm probably just one of a few that's experienced this but --------

[aharbi]

Any members from the Houston, TX area who could stand in your place to look her over during your absence?!

 

Pictures! pictures, close ups, lots & lots of pictures. With the macro settings on the digital cameras bet you can see the "old crack" vs the new fracture in what broke.

[ragtop69gs]

Dave,

 

Don't know where in Michigan you are going, but, I'm just north of Detroit. If we can help out or you just want to grab a cold one, give me a call.

[autopilot]

I would get the bike out of their posession as quickly as I could and take it to a neutral corner for the time being until I was able to set some ground rules. When the teardown did finally begin, I would have somebody legally mandated to witness & document the teardown....particularly the broken parts. I would get MANY High Res pictures and when they question why you want to pull the bike temporarily....I'd tell them straight out that the thinly veiled implications about your part in the engines demise are telling you that they may not be 100% honest when the problem is brought to light. With the bike in their posession with them working on it at their descretion ........you're just giving up too much control over what is looking like an increasingly dodgy situation. I would also tell them that the other reason is to put a hold on anybody doing anything until I had clearly define guidance from legal cousel.

 

My point is that if they're already hinting that you may have done something that caused it, (probably at yamaha's urging), you can bet that lacking any other guidance, they'll find a way to make whatever you did THE CAUSE! If I were going to have to deal with these people at all, I would at least try to make sure as much of it was on my terms and not theirs and in so doing, put them on notice that you are not about to let them (any of them) railroad you into eating the cost of a new engine (or a repair).

 

Get the bike, get a lawyer, get a gameplan, the go back & get a chunk of the backside of their britches!

Edited February 13, 2011 by autopilot
sp & word use

[Pam]

Sorry to hear about your Folks Dave, and all my best wishes for you and them.

 

I have been reading this with great interest, Usually a hole in the block is caused by a broken crank or rod. Yamaha seems to have taken the stance that this can't happen to one of these engins, especially if the engine is maintained as this one has. Anything can happen in an engine, and I am betting that when everthing is all torn down there will be an old fracture in the crank or a rod, or possibly one of the wrist pins.

 

Again all my best o you and your folks Dave

 

frank:080402gudl_prv:

[dingy]

There have been several posts about a possible fractured rod and old vs new fracture.

 

Has this been seen through the hole in the engine?

 

If it is a fractured rod, I can see no difference in an Old vs New fracture for one, its immaterial, bike is still under warranty.

 

I would be hard pressed to think of any maintenance that would be allegedly lacking, could cause a fractured rod. This is a complete and clear failure of materials. Not a lack of lubrication. There is no oil or filter that would in any way effect this failure.

 

Other than failure of materials, one other cause possibly would be over revving engine, which is hard to do with a rev limiter in place.

 

There is the extremely remote possibility that either the rod bearing or wrist pin seized. By this happening, it is possible that rotational torque was then exerted on the rod at one end or the other causing the failure. But either of these problems would be evident when disassembled.

 

Gary

[Flyinfool]

A rod or wrist pin seizing was my thought also. Maintenance and oil selection could contribute to that scenario.

As you mentioned, at tear down it will be easy to tell. If the rod is broke and the bearings at both ends are good then it is simply a bad rod or crank.

[Kirby]

I think it's about time to put in that call to Yamaha Customer Service yourself!!!

[BuddyRich]

My response to the non oem oil filter would be " Then you will personally take the stand and swear that the oil filter or oil caused the engine failure " When I sue the oil filter or oil manf to pay for the repairs? Will you sign a Deposition now to that effect ?

[flb_78]

My response to the non oem oil filter would be " Then you will personally take the stand and swear that the oil filter or oil caused the engine failure " When I sue the oil filter or oil manf to pay for the repairs? Will you sign a Deposition now to that effect ?

 

What if the oil filter was not approved or specified to be used on that engine by the filter manufacturer?

 

Many of us run a Mazda filter. No where on any cross reference chart does that filter mention the Yamaha V4 engine.

 

In this thread here, none of the recommended filters in the group 5 size are approved by the filter manufacturers to be ran on our engines, yet everyday on this forum, folks tell new people looking for information to run these filters that could very well void any engine warranty.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=523

 

Purolator has had enough contact about it to list it on their FAQ page.

 

http://www.purolatorautofilters.net/resources/Pages/FAQs.aspx

 

Q: Can I use a PureONE oil filter on my motorcycle?

A: Purolator highly recommends using the Purolator ML motorcycle filters specially designed for motorcycles and ATVs. Check out the Purolator Motorcycle and ATV Application Guide to find the right motorcycle filter for your bike.

 

These questions are about size, but Purolator still points out that they'll deny any warranty claims if a filter is used and it's not listed as being a direct replacement.

 

Q: I want a bigger oil filter so I can maximize my filtration potential. What filter can you recommend?

A: We only recommend the OEM replacement part number for your specific vehicle. Any use of a filter not on our OEM recommended list will void the warranty we provide for our filters. Purolator filters ar built for each specific vehicle. Even if the oil filter can looks the same or is the same thread length it doesn't mean it will fit the application you are trying to use it on. Any custom oil conversion kits or relocator kits should have a filter size recommendation on the instruction sheet. Use that number to then find a cross-reference to a Purolator part number.

 

Q: I measured the filter that's currently in my vehicle and am looking for a replacement. Can you tell me what the equivalent Purolator part number is based on filter dimensions?

A: We only recommend the OEM replacement part number for your specific vehicle. Any use of a filter not on our OEM recommended list will void the warranty we provide for our filters. Purolator filters are built for each specific vehicle. Even if the filter looks the same or has the same dimensions, it doesn't mean it will fit the application you are trying to use it on.

 

This is listed on their motorcycle page.

 

http://www.purolatorautofilters.net/products/pages/motorcyclefilters.aspx

 

What About PureONE?

If you're thinking you want to install a PureONE oil filter on your bike, please think again. PureONE oil filters are designed for vehicles, not bikes. Because of PureONE's high efficiency, the motorcycle oil pump may not be able to handle the pressure. The Purolator motorcycle filter line is designed to meet the specific needs of a bike; therefore we highly recommend the use of a Purolator ML filter over a PureONE oil filter.

 

I'm sure that every other filter manufacturer has the same policy.

[Guest scarylarry]

I'm sure that every other filter manufacturer has the same policy.

 

 

So the bottom line is use a OEM or gamble the risk, which most of us do..

 

Taking them to court sounds good but they have deeper pockets than most of us..

 

Now I run a Super Tech filter, I don't care for a real tight pleat cause the pumps are not that strong to push the oil...

 

I do however keep a Yammy filter on hand just in case

[flb_78]

So the bottom line is use a OEM or gamble the risk, which most of us do..

 

No, you do not need to use a Yammi filter, but if your bike is in warranty, you should use a filter that the filter manufacturer recommends for the application. Then if something were to happen and yamaha blames the filter and can prove it, you could go after the filter manufacturer for a defective product.

[flb_78]

BTW, I run the Purolater PL14610 automotive filter or the Super Tech equivalent, but my bike is about as far out of warranty as an RSV can be.

[Guest scarylarry]

No, you do not need to use a Yammi filter, but if your bike is in warranty, you should use a filter that the filter manufacturer recommends for the application. Then if something were to happen and yamaha blames the filter and can prove it, you could go after the filter manufacturer for a defective product.

 

And again the bike is on blocks while you are chasing a tail...All in order to save a buck or 2 when..

 

How long can they keep it tied up?

 

Longer than I would want.. I feel it is best to play it safe and keep a yammy filter on hand..

Edited February 19, 2011 by scarylarry

[Zane]

I am not sure about those first gen owners who have put on 50% more miles, but took 8 times longer to do so. Either the bike is too slow to accumulate miles at a 2nd gen rate, or it is too uncomfortable to ride.

 

Dave

 

 

I see a very large can of worms being opened with that statement!

 

But all kidding aside, Good luck and hope you get your scoot back ASAP.

[BuddyRich]

The point of my post was. Is the dealer so sure of his mechanics findings if he says it was the oil or the oil filter that he is willing to go to court? Or is there enough reasonable doubt that he should just tell Yamaha to fix it. I doubt that the dealer would want to go that far. Why would he? He's gonna get paid either way.

[Guest scarylarry]

Your right, dealers are more to lean to the corp. for many reasons.

 

The bottom line here is that the super tech filter may cost him a warranty, expensive lesson learn here and one I hope no one ever goes thru again and at the same time I hope he comes out smelling like a rose on this..

[flb_78]

I too hope that the cause of failure is determined to be a faulty part and covered under warranty.

[XV1100SE]

Hopefully an OEM filter was on the bike when he took it to the dealer.

[Dave77459]

I know you are sitting on the edge of your seat, so I am updating you mere minutes after I called the dealership.

 

The dealer has Roxie torn down and has sent photos of the damage to Yamaha. I asked for copies of the photos, and was promised them, but haven't received them yet. We'll see.

 

The rod "has snapped". I gather from above that it is good news for me.

 

However, the rod is also twisted. That is something Yamaha asked the dealer to take special note of. It seems that it is something Yamaha has experience in, or suspected, or something. What it means for me, I haven't any idea.

 

He told me that he should hear something by tomorrow. If not, he will call them. So, this phase of the investigation is approaching a conclusion.

 

Again, I'm just relaying information and avoiding scandal. I'll let y'all speculate, since you know more than me. And, frankly, it is interesting to watch you do it.

 

Dave