So, a man walks into the service department...

[Dave77459]

Thanks folks for the advice. I'm not about to manufacture receipts. I believe that to be dishonest. I maintained a pretty detailed log, starting with a paper one and then moving to a Google Docs spreadsheet when I couldn't find the paper one for a day. I have dates of service and mileage and what.

 

I note that the warranty does NOT require receipts, or even mention them. Here are some relevant sections from the warranty, for those lacking the manual to hand:

 

GENERAL EXCLUSIONS from this warranty shall include any failures caused by:

a. Competition or racing use.

b. Installation of parts or accessories that are not qualitatively equivalent to genuine Yamaha parts.

c. Abnormal strain, neglect, or abuse.

d. Lack of proper maintenance or storage.

e. Accident or collision damage.

f. Modification to original parts.

g. Damage due to improper transportation.

 

THE CUSTOMER'S RESPONSIBILITY under this warranty shall be to:

Operate and maintain the Royal Star Series as specified in the appropriate Owner's Manual, and Give notice to an authorized Yamaha motorcycle dealer of any and all apparent defects within ten (10) days after discovery, and make the machine available at that time for inspection and repairs at such dealer's place of business.

 

WARRANTY QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

 

Q. May I perform any or all of the recommended maintenance shown in the Owner's Manual instead of having the dealer do them?

A. Yes, if you are a qualified mechanic and follow the procedures specified in the Owner's and Service Manual. We do recommend, however, that items requiring special tools or equipment be done by Yamaha motorcycle dealer. [sic]

 

Q. Will the warranty be void or cancelled if I not operate or maintain my new motorcycle exactly as specified in the Owner's Manual?

A. No. The warranty on a new motorcycle cannot be "voided" or "cancelled". However, if a particular failure is caused by operation or maintenance other than as shown in the Owner's Manual, that failure may not be covered under warranty. [bold as printed]

So.

 

My position at this time is that they have permission to diagnose the cause of the failure. With that knowledge, it their responsibility to inform me how my actions caused the failure. I will sign a letter attesting that my maintenance log is true and accurate if required. I believe that to be equivalent and even better than receipts for oil that I may or may not have actually used.

 

I have drafted a letter transmitting my maintenance log. I prefer to not display it here, but if one or more of you who have successfully dealt with warranty issues want to PM me and request to review it before I send it, please do. I'd kinda like to send it around lunchtime if possible.

 

Note that my wife works as a legal secretary. Her lawyer would be glad to send the email instead of me. However, he would like to know what to say since he is not an expert in warranty law. He could be the party to transmit my email, if that would be helpful. It would be sent Monday, since we are closed for business today in Houston due to ice.

 

Dave

[Dave77459]

I meant to add that the phone call was made by the dealer to convey their understanding of Yamaha's position. "Don't shoot the messenger" was stated several times. I don't believe the dealer to be crooked.

 

Dave

[brewser23]

To my unlawerly like mind, me thinks that with those two little words( underlined below) they might have you by the short and curlys UNLESS you are actually a qualified mechanic. I sure hope I am wrong but you might want to get a definition of what a qualified mechanic is, by some one who can defend that definition in court, for your own peace of mind.

 

 

Q. May I perform any or all of the recommended maintenance shown in the Owner's Manual instead of having the dealer do them?

A. Yes, if you are a qualified mechanic and follow the procedures specified in the Owner's and Service Manual. We do recommend, however, that items requiring special tools or equipment be done by Yamaha motorcycle dealer. [sic]

 

[Sylvester]

Q. May I perform any or all of the recommended maintenance shown in the Owner's Manual instead of having the dealer do them?

A. Yes, if you are a qualified mechanic and follow the procedures specified in the Owner's and Service Manual. We do recommend, however, that items requiring special tools or equipment be done by Yamaha motorcycle dealer. [sic]

 

 

I have stayed out of this post because I could see where Dave's problems were heading. I have turned wrenches for fifty years on all sorts of motors and transmissions. Problem is I never did it as a job. Therefore I am NOT a professional mechanic, but I am a qualified mechanic. Since that is what the statement is above, then I can service my engine oil. And in fact I always have, and I keep a log of everything done by me or another service facility. I don't keep the purchase records. This being said my RSMV has been out of warranty for four + years. I wish you well, Dave, and I believe that a service log written in hand and kept up to date will suffice.

 

[dmoff1698]

When I took my RSV in for a blown engine, Yamaha never asked me for any records at all. This tells me that receipts are not a requirement of either the terms of the warrantee nor a firm policy from Yamaha.

 

Since I assume Yamaha has designated "regions" for their service reps, you probably have a different representative than I did.

 

I only conclude that the request is comming from the dealer or the service rep, hoping to scare you off. Neither is the final word on the subject.

 

Stand firm, be polite as long as you can. Everyone has a boss, don't hesitate to ask to chat with them.

 

 

BTW: Manufacturing your own receipts is pure fraud. I guarantee the pentalties for fraud are much greater than the total value of any motorcycle.

[Squidley]

Dave,

Just relax and let the process take it's due course. You have good recepits and maintenance records, we dont know the hoops that the dealer has to jump through either. Like I said earlier to you, there is another engine available if it comes down to that. Deep breath and just present them with the facts, I still dont believe your going to get shafted here...it will all work out in the end bud

[KeithR]

Dave

 

I hope it all works out for you . I work as a Temporary Service Manager (they are looking I won't take the job) at a Honda car dealership. If Yamaha are anything like Honda the dealership is trying to protect their butt....We have an ongoing battle with Honda for Warranty coverage.....I had to get a guy to give me 3 yrs worth of maint records in order to get a $150 part covered the other day. Just seems like the old days of having a gray area are gone. Its black and white now if you don't do your regular maint Honda are not so easy to get coverage. We even got paid by Honda Canada for a complete transmission repair but once it got on someones desk in Japan and they looked at the dates and it was over the claim period they just took the money back.....$3500 poof gone.

 

Good Luck

 

Keith

[Guest PlaneCrazy]

In regards to DIY stuff...

 

I've run a forum for Honda ACE owners for the last 7+ years and we have had a few cases of the dealership/Honda challenging customers who have done all the mtce themselves. ANYONE can do their own mtce as long as they can PROVE that they are competent to do the work, have the proper reference material (IE: Service Manual), Keep a LOG of when and at what mileage you did everything, show that you have the proper TOOLS and finally have RECEIPTS for the consumables (EX: Oil, filters, etc)

 

Normally, the dealer will be satisfied with a detailed log and receipts for the oil, etc to cross reference with the log (they check the dates and see that they match). If they are being pricks, then they might demand you show that you have the proper manuals and tools. So you better have that carb synch tool handy (a real one, not homemade, lol) or have a buddy who owns one lend it to you. Same for the torque wrenches and special torque adapters. If you are going to get in a battle, then be prepared to produce those tools.

 

But like others have mentioned. What we say here is just friendly advice. It's by no means legal advice. If you can't work it out amiably with the dealer, then seek legal advice.

 

Good luck

[jburrell]

Dave,

Hope it all works out. Ask them how a bike that has as many miles as yours and still looks great could be a bike that wasnt properly maintained. They will most liely take care of you but you may have to deal with the Yamaha Regional director first. Like Squidley said don't worry about it a lot until you have dealt more with Yamaha more. You know we can get a group together and get it fixed it we have too. Again, I wish you well

 

 

James

[flb_78]

What kind of oil filter was on the bike when it went in?

[KarlS]

I meant to add that the phone call was made by the dealer to convey their understanding of Yamaha's position. "Don't shoot the messenger" was stated several times. I don't believe the dealer to be crooked.

 

Dave

 

I spent 33 years as an Automotive Service Manager for Ford and Chrysler dealerships and it was Ford and Chrysler that made the call, not the dealerships. Whenever there was a question about a warranty issue I had to ask the questions the companies asked me. You seem like the kind of person that will talk and discuss the situation with the dealer in a calm intelligent manner. These kind of customers I would bend over backwards to help. Now the ones that came in screaming and threatening me would get no help from me at all. I'm sure it will all work out good for you in the end.

[Kirby]

What kind of oil filter was on the bike when it went in?

 

 

Good question! I'm curious also.

[zooer]

I hate it when someone responds with a cool head and a logical argument.

Party pooper!!!

 

Yeah, its a lot more fun when eveyone goes postal, dead fish rolled in news papers start arriving on peoples door steps and helicopter start flying over head! That's the American way!

[Dave77459]

I called the dealership this morning to see what progress had been made on finding the cause of the failure. I had *not* sent them my maintenance log, being under the impression that I had given them permission to discover the cause on my dime if necessary.

 

However, the dealer had gone only so far as to determine that there was a hole in the engine, then called Yamaha to begin the warranty process. Yamaha has apparently taken the position that they will not permit the dealer to tear down the engine until they see the service records. Thus, nothing has been done.

 

Kinda frusty.

 

There was mention that Yamaha wants to be sure that approved motor oil and filter have been used. I gather that they mean over the life of the engine.

 

I'm not being quarrelsome or accusatory (at least I am not trying to be). I am posting here to provide information to other owners who may someday hope to have warranty work done on their machines. The process differs from what I would have assumed given the plain language of the printed warranty.

 

Dave

[Guest scarylarry]

What kind of oil filter was on the bike when it went in?

Me too... Also would a non yammy filter like a super tech void the warranty?

[cecdoo]

Dave thanks for the updates, think it is commendable the way you have handled things so far, sorry to hear they havent looked farther into the failure yet. I wish you the best in getting this resolved, as far as service records all I do is maintain a log on the computer, have not kept any recpts for oil and filters, so I am very interested in seeing how this plays out. Craig

[V7Goose]

Me too... Also would a non yammy filter like a super tech void the warranty?

A non-Yamaha filter would not have any affect on warranty coverage unless Yamaha could identify some specification about it that was inferior in some way to the recommended filter and could contribute to improper oiling of the engine.

 

If you use an aftermarket filter that the manufacturer lists as specifically for this engine, they they will most likely go to bat for you - they really do not want anyone to be able to say a warranty was denied because of their filter.

 

However, if you use any of the common automotive replacements (like I do), you would be completely on your own in trying to prove it met or exceeded all requirements.

 

And if the Yamahaha says the filter failed in some way, thus causing the failure, then you are liable to be caught in the middle of a finger-pointing argument.

Goose

[flb_78]

Me too... Also would a non yammy filter like a super tech void the warranty?

 

Because the Super Tech does not list the Yamaha Venture as a fitment. It is an automotive filter. The Super Tech filter fits most of the Mazda engines, which also happen to use the same thread fitting as most Japanese motorcycles. I personally use a Super Tech now, but my bike is out of warranty. I was using a Purolator filter, but now it has become more difficult to find. A non-OEM filter such as the Fram, K&N, Hi-flo, or any other filter can be used as long as it lists the Venture as a fitment and guarantees that it meets all of the OEM requirements.

[flb_78]

Yeah, what Goose said.

[Guest scarylarry]

Thanks gentlemen..

I would say the trick is finding one that meets their specs.

[Redneck]

I would inform the dealer in the nicest possible way that Yamaha does not own that motorcycle and that you told them to tear it down and find the failure. Next I would request in writing what Yamaha requires from you to honor the warranty. That way you know exactly where you stand and have documentation in case this goes to court. Don't worry about the oil filter it is against federal law to void the warranty for the use of an after market oil filter.

I would keep the big stick behind my back at this point but I would start letting my teeth show.

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/keeping-your-mods-warranty-intact.html I am not a lawyer but I believe that Yamaha is required by law to prove that you have not done proper maintenance and that caused the engine failure. You may want to print a copy of the consume protection act and give it to your dealer.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Redneck

[LilBeaver]

I would inform the dealer in the nicest possible way that Yamaha does not own that motorcycle and that you told them to tear it down and find the failure.

 

Actually, I disagree with this - it may be to your advantage that they have not actually taken it apart yet as it makes it real easy for you to just pick it up IN ONE PIECE and only have to fight any 'storage fees' they may try to impose - just in case you decide you want to try with a different dealer. While, I might be a little miffed that after all of this time they have not actually started anything, but I can see from the dealer standpoint (IF for some goofy reason yamaha does not want to honor the warranty) of not wanting to have to figure out what to do with a bike that is in pieces sitting around their shop.

 

Next I would request in writing what Yamaha requires from you to honor the warranty. That way you know exactly where you stand and have documentation in case this goes to court.

...

 

Definitely, I would go direct to the regional rep or Yamaha USA for this though; skip the dealer and go straight to the source.

 

 

-------------------

Don't forget about the FTC - this is what the consumer protection division is all about.

 

Potentially helpful reading:

Auto Warranties, Routine Maintenance, and Repairs: Is Using the Dealer a Must?

---> http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/alerts/alt192.shtm

 

General law information:

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus01-businesspersons-guide-federal-warranty-law

[Redneck]

Some good info here with contact number.http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/keeping-your-mods-warranty-intact.html

[Redneck]

Actually, I disagree with this - it may be to your advantage that they have not actually taken it apart yet as it makes it real easy for you to just pick it up IN ONE PIECE and only have to fight any 'storage fees' they may try to impose - just in case you decide you want to try with a different dealer. While, I might be a little miffed that after all of this time they have not actually started anything, but I can see from the dealer standpoint (IF for some goofy reason yamaha does not want to honor the warranty) of not wanting to have to figure out what to do with a bike that is in pieces sitting around their shop.

 

 

 

Definitely, I would go direct to the regional rep or Yamaha USA for this though; skip the dealer and go straight to the source.

 

 

-------------------

Don't forget about the FTC - this is what the consumer protection division is all about.

 

Potentially helpful reading:

---> http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/alerts/alt192.shtm

 

General law information:

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus01-businesspersons-guide-federal-warranty-law

I disagree with you he took the motorcycle to the dealer of his choice he agreed to pay if it was not covered under warranty. Its his motorcycle not yamaha's the dealer should do what he says not yamaha.

[flb_78]

I wouldn't let the dealer tear into it until Yamaha authorized it. No need to pay $600 to the dealer for no reason.

 

If for some God-forsaken reason the bike will not be covered under warranty, used engines are available on ebay for around a grand. It'd be cheaper in the long run to do a complete swap out with a lower mileage engine instead of having the dealer doing an overhaul.