Front spring questions

[1BigDog]

I know from reading some past posts that there are a few members here who have updated their front suspension. Since ill have my forks apart for polishing soon I figure this would be a good time to do some upgrading.

 

What is the best choice for a modified front suspension: the Racetech Emulators and a better spring or would Progressive springs alone be enough?

 

Does the emulators replace the air bags in the forks?

 

What about seals? Do these kits come with the necessary seals?

 

Any special tecniques needed for this project?

 

Best synthetic fork oil to use?

 

Part #'s would help. Some of the sites only list springs for the earlier tour deluxe models, not the RSV.

 

Thanks....

[Freebird]

Rick Butler has some excellent information on this and a lot of experience. Hopefully he will see this but if not, send him a PM. I know that he does NOT recommend the progressives for the RSV. Actually, he posted a good write up here somewhere on the subject.

[Seaking]

I have the Progressive Springs installed in the front.. I had some experiences with the Emulators on the VStar that weren't favourable for our local conditions and opted instead for the progressive springs instead on the VSTar which worked out great and then put a set on the Venture this past summer when I had my neck bearings replaced etc.

 

All you get is the springs basically. Since the forks should be serviced every two years, you should spend the coins on new seals and do a service on the forks at the same time. Wasn't all that expensive as far as I remember.. at least I have the peace of mind knowing it's done and good for another two year blah blah..

 

How is the ride with the progressive springs? WOW, awesome.. because the springs are stiffer than the stock front end could be, you most likely won't need air in the forks so you don't have to worry about balancing them out. The bike hugs the road, eat the bumps and doesn't lunge or drop at the front end when braking hard. This alone is a good thing as it keeps more of the bike's weight on the rear wheel helping to avoid the rear wheel lockup skid.

 

Over all, I love the springs I installed.. well worth it.

 

The emulators I had in the VStar didn't work well around here due to the number of pot holes and sharp edge deformities in our roads.. I found the emulators would almost lock up the forks when I would hit something sharp.. it's an odd sensation but that's why I took them out and put the Progressive Springs in the VStar.

[Guest]

Rick Butler has some excellent information on this and a lot of experience. Hopefully he will see this but if not, send him a PM. I know that he does NOT recommend the progressives for the RSV. Actually, he posted a good write up here somewhere on the subject.

 

I did read his write up and I thought the bad springs were the ones from race tech. Ive seen different reviews on the progressives but I just want to make an informed choice.

Im just looking for some improvement over stock. Ill send Rick a PM on this as well. Thanks...

[1joeranger]

Rick knows it inside and out! He held my hand while I replaced mine and I had no clue what I was doing! Excellent investment! You will not go wrong PM Rick! http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?p=541757#post541757

 

Good Luck!!

[Sylvester]

I installed the Gold Emulators six years ago. They do not replace the air bags so it still works. I love the emulators but I kept the stock springs. It is important to change the fork oil on time or the front will get spongy.

 

[straycatt]

I've been looking for information on the RaceTech springs as well and even after posting the question here, came up empty. Apparently no one is using RaceTech springs, and though I haven't called RaceTech, I have sent them several emails, none of which have they returned.

 

I have decided that, while I want a tad stiffer front end I still want a plush, soft ride. So, I'll go with the 1.0 springs as a middle ground, probably from Sonic and no emulators. I'm also thinking 7 or 10 weight oil to slow things down a little on compression. I also plan to run 0 psi of air in the forks.

 

RaceTech also offers some supposedly "extra-slippery" inner and outer fork bushings that they say are a must for smooth fork operation, but are in the neighborhood of 4 times as costly as OEM bushings, and I can still find NO information from any one that has used them.

 

These thoughts are not based in any experience with the RSV, but are extrapolated from what I've gathered on past posts here and elsewhere on the web, and on my own work setting up other motorcycle forks.

I as well would love to see more info on what those who have set up RSV front ends have done as I need to order my parts soon to be ready as soon as the weather gets warm enough to work in an poorly heated garage.

[Guest]

Spoke to Rick tonight and I decided to order the Progressive springs. Found them on Amazon.com for 65 bucks new through Motorcycle accessory warehouse. Thanks for everyones input and thanks Rick for the personalized service.

[Rick Butler]

Well Jeff,

 

The one best thing you can do for your front suspension if you only made one change is to replace the front springs. Now Progressive springs are better than oem, but like I have said previously, all of the suspension experts reccomend constant rate springs that are rated for the weight of the bike plus the driver which for our bike are 1.2s. The weight of the passenger has no effect on the front. Now Glenn, I'm not sure I'd opt for 1.0 springs with the weight of the RSV just by itself. 1.0s are what I just put in my Honda CBR600 track bike.

 

But Jeff, to install emulators you will need to be comfortable with disassembling the forks and you will need a drill press to drill extra compression holes in the dampening rod to flow the fluid for the emulator. And you should also have a good bench vise, impact wrench and a fair amount of other standard metric tools.

 

But if you are not a rider that wants everything you can get out of a front suspension that will stick in the turns and react quickly to fork compression and rebound, then there is not a compelling reason to install emulators. The emulators just allow a dampening fork design to react like the cartridge forks that all of the super sport bikes have, which means the compression dampening is adjustable. Otherwise the only adjustment we have with a dampening fork is the weight of the oil and the oil level which solves one issue but creates a compound issue with the other side of fork dampening.

 

One other item with emulators is that you CANNOT use the oem springs....you will bottom out big time. You really need at least a set of Progressives.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Rick

[straycatt]

Hmm, more things to think about.

I know the factory Yamaha springs are .90 or .92, I forget which. That makes a 1.2 roughly 30% stiffer than stock. If that carries over to a 30% harder ride out of the front end, that is a LOT stiffer.

 

My logic with the 1.0's is that I'll maintain the plush ride and by going to 7-10 weight oil still stiffen the dampening enough to offset the softer spring. It may not work that way but that is the idea.

 

I don't mean to hijack your thread Jeff, and I know that ride quality is very subjective, but I'm trying to get as much info as I can on this before I tear mine apart. As much work as it is to get to these springs I don't want to do it twice.

 

There doesn't seem to be a lot of discussion on exactly what spring brand/weight/oil/preload every one is using.

I too, thank everyone for the information.

[Rick Butler]

You are right Glenn,

 

If you want a plush ride then 1.0 springs are certainly a step better that the wimpy springs that come with our RS Ventures. But, if you want to stiffen the dampening, I would suggest that you go with a heavier fork oil like a 10 or 15wt ( I run a synthetic 10wt in mine).

 

But I'm not sure that a plush ride is what our Ventures deliver for us. Yeah it may be plush going down a smooth road, but what does it feel like on some of our interstates like I-10 across Louisiana? Would you take your bike across a rough set of rail road tracks at 40 or 50mph? Yeah, you would really hammer both your front and rear suspensions.

 

The following is what Race Tech has to say about our Ventures:

 

The Venture suffers from being soft and spongy it's a result of having too soft a fork spring and having low tech damping rods. The cure for this fork is the Race Tech Cartridge Emulator and HP Fork Springs. This will cure the mush problem by turning the forks into a firm riding suspension that is very compliant on the small choppy stuff and can handle the varying demands of the Venture rider.

 

And here is a video showing both a poor and a proper tuned suspension:

 

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And if you want some intense reading to understand your dampening forks, the following are several pages from their "Motorcycle Suspension Bible" (which you can print out:

 

http://www.racetech.com/HTML_FILES/DampingRodForks.HTML

 

And you are right that more information needs to be presented to help everyone understand our suspension better. And I'm going to do a post pretty soon describing the importance of suspension sag and how to measure it.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Rick

[Seaking]

thanks for the info Rick.. looking forward to your suspension sag and how to measure it article.. I need to ride the bike and check mine to fine tune it..

 

they put the synthetic oil in mine, stiffer progressive springs.. I don't have my notes as to what where how the setup was made but what I remember is the synthetic oil and no air pressure.

 

The ride is impressive and responsive!! I rode that I-10 you mentioned, it wasn't that bad lol.. but around here we have a lot of harsh bumps and holes that suck when you nail them square one with the bikes.. The progressive springs seem to eat them up without jarring or hamering on the folks. Makes for a much nicer ride over stock. AND it really does away with the front end dive if you come on hard to the front brakes.. now that's impressive.

 

I'm really eager to take the bike out this spring as I did a lot of work on the suspension on the bike. I bought my 2006 in 2008 with 20,000 miles on it.. and the bike felt and rode like it was abused, but for the price I paid for it.. no worries. A little tweak here and there and I think she's going to be like new this year.

 

new front neck bearings, properly installed this time, new fork oil and progressive springs.. greased and tightened swing arm and new Works Shock in the rear.. yep.. this girl is gonna cut a nice line on the highway and curves..

 

I just gotta avoid them deep pot holes is all.,..

[straycatt]

Thank you Rick. That does help quite a bit. I hadn't found that information from RaceTech in my search of their site, and I'll need to study on the tech pages for a while.

 

I too, will look forward to any tech articles you write and please know I appreciate the effort. I keep hoping that the guys that have reworked their Gen 2 Venture suspension will post up what they did and how they feel it differs from stock (thanks for what you've said Seaking) but I'm starting to think that maybe there are just not very many people that have done anything with their front end.

 

For my particular situation what I'm really trying to do is cure a sort of wobble feeling from my bike in high speed long sweeper corners. I know that I'm due for a new rear shock before too long, but I thought that I'd do the neck bearings and forks first (less cash outlay). Wheel bearings are good all around and only about 5000 miles on both new E3's so suspension is the only thing left.

 

Again, thanks to all for the help.

[Seaking]

For my particular situation what I'm really trying to do is cure a sort of wobble feeling from my bike in high speed long sweeper corners. I know that I'm due for a new rear shock before too long, but I thought that I'd do the neck bearings and forks first (less cash outlay). Wheel bearings are good all around and only about 5000 miles on both new E3's so suspension is the only thing left.

 

That wobbly feeling in long sweeping turns is MOST likely a loose swing arm! I used to have that on my bike, especially on the right hand sweeping turns for some odd reason.. Made it hard to cut a curving line through the bend in the highway, almost forcing you to the centre of the lane as if gives you more lee way for the loose feeling from the bike.

 

Did you check to see if your rear shock is still good? Mine was SO bad that if you stand on the right side of the bike and press down on the right side passenger hand rail, the whole bike would lean up straight.. squoosh! Now that I have the new Works shock on, the bike barely moves. When I do it this to my friend's bike, his moves just a wee tad.. nothing like how mine was shifting all the way over.. if your bike does that, it could be a sign of a dead shock in need of replacing.

 

Between the swing arm and the rear shock, I'd check the shock first.. but then also DO the swimg arm maintenance anyway. I believe I saw your bike being a 2000 model? If it's never been done, most likely it's very loose. Mine was very loose.

 

I had that issue with an older bike and once the swing arm was attended to, it was like a whole new bike.

 

I have roughly 80,000+ miles on the bike, I got it used in 2008 with 20,000 on it.. so its been ridden hard. The bottom line is that if we're wanting to keep these bikes and ride them like we stole them, or ride them long and hard, we DO have to keep up with these maintenance items on a regular basis.. tedious, hard, difficult, annoying as some can be, what a HUGE difference it makes when you're riding though.. Once you do it the first time, the second time is a lot quicker.. Luckily I have 4 hard winter months to jack the bike up and get the work done..

[straycatt]

That wobbly feeling in long sweeping turns is MOST likely a loose swing arm!

 

Did you check to see if your rear shock is still good?

 

 

That sound exactly like what my bike is doing, but those were some of the very first things I looked at.

I can find no excess play in the swingarm. The shock is starting to groan but it still has fair damping and though it will leak down to about 25 psi (I usually run 30-35 psi) it does hold air. This bike has only 35K miles on it.

I'm going to replace it, but will have to wait until after my youngest daughter gets married this coming August.

 

I suspect that one side of the forks has lost its damping (bad seal/weak spring/plugged oil passage) and that is the culprit. I need to do the swingarm maintenance but I figured on doing that when I replace the shock. It could also be a combination of all of these things is giving me the wobble.....slight slop in the swingarm-going away rear shock--weak forks.

[Seaking]

Though my NEW rear Yamaha shock was able to hold air, it still failed miserably.. what a waste of time and effort building such a shoddy shock.. sigh..

 

Your front shocks should be serviced every two years anyway, so perhaps, as you suggested, the problem lies there.. The shop that did mine got it done rather quickly by simply raising the cage off the front fork area instead of disassembling everything which takes a lot of time and headaches. The shock shop here says they need the shocks off the bike to do a proper service.. I had all the seals changed out on spec, didn't cost much and what a difference it all makes..

 

your bike being as old as it is.. probably might not have had any front end service to it before? Might be time to 'get er done'..

 

I'm SO looking forward to an impressive ride lol (gosh I hope..!