89 VR Intregrated Brake ?

[GolfVenture]

This Intregrated Brake is new to me. So when I hit the foot brake, one front rotor and the rear rotor are activated. Are the fluid pressure 50/50 front rear or 60/40 or ##/##? When I hit the front brake only with the right hand brake then are both front rotors activiated or just one front rotor? I'm from the old school riding 27 years ago and so I'm still not too comfortable when needing to brake in a turn and say it is wet out. The whole idea of Intregrated Braking seems strange to me. And not having ridden much so far, would welcome any thoughts of comfort. Like does one brake differently in different situations with intregrated brakes vs the old fashion brake system. Or do I brake as if I have the old system and just forget that the brakes are intregrated, and let the new technology do its stuff. As for now I ride kind of conservatively until I get a better understanding, more experience and a better feel for the braking.

[Rick Butler]

Brian,

 

You are not alone and there has always been considerable controversy over integrated vs unlinked braking systems. I have attached a good article that explains all of your questions. But in simple terms, in general you are better off with integrated brakes that you are without them.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Rick

 

This Intregrated Brake is new to me. So when I hit the foot brake, one front rotor and the rear rotor are activated. Are the fluid pressure 50/50 front rear or 60/40 or ##/##? When I hit the front brake only with the right hand brake then are both front rotors activiated or just one front rotor? I'm from the old school riding 27 years ago and so I'm still not too comfortable when needing to brake in a turn and say it is wet out. The whole idea of Intregrated Braking seems strange to me. And not having ridden much so far, would welcome any thoughts of comfort. Like does one brake differently in different situations with intregrated brakes vs the old fashion brake system. Or do I brake as if I have the old system and just forget that the brakes are intregrated, and let the new technology do its stuff. As for now I ride kind of conservatively until I get a better understanding, more experience and a better feel for the braking.

[MiCarl]

Ride it the same as any other bike. There is no special method required for the linked brakes. You won't notice any difference.

 

To answer your other question: The hand lever only activates the right front caliper, there is not interconnection to the foot (rear) system.

[Flyinfool]

That article touches on one drawback of integrated brakes but does not fully address it.

If you are going down a grade like a driveway that is gravel at slow speed, or even coming to a complete stop on a very slick surface, the integrated brake can lock up the front wheel while trying to stop, and because you are a t a very low speed there is no engine braking available, there is gyroscopic stability being provided by the wheels, and there is no significant weight transfer to the front wheel. Your only way to get stopped while still vertical in this senario is to very rapidly pump the rear brake while keeping your weight bias to the left since you right foot is too busy to hold up the bike when it does stop. At the moment the bike fully stops be ready to grab the front brake to hold position so you can get your right foot down quick.

 

This is something that I have practiced a lot since I use the technique nearly every time I come home at night or if its been raining.

[GolfVenture]

Thank You for the attached article. I had to read it 4, 5 times to get it into my head and will need to read it a few more times to get rid of the old way of thinking. The weight transfer sample using 1000 lbs and the 300lbs / 250 lbs really helped in the understanding and accepting the benefits of the intregrated braking feature.

 

There is one paragraph that was a bit confusing. It is the 8th paragraph from the bottom.

 

"What if, however, you overuse the front brake while using less rear brake than would

cause the rear wheel to lock? Then it is entirely possible to lock the front wheel. This

possibility is apparently what concerns inexperienced users the most."

 

I'm thinking that in the 1st sentence " What if, however, you overuse the front brake while using less rear brake than would cause the rear wheel to lock? " the 2nd occurance of the word rear in red should be front?

 

Thank You again for the article. Once my head fully gets onboard with the concepts and features, I really do not need to then think about what is occuring during my breaking. I can then relax more and enjoy the ride knowing that the intregrated braking system is an added safety benefit. In other words just ride and break intutively like the old schooling thinking. Except when moving very slow under slippery road conditions. Did I get it right?

[SC89Venture]

Just an offering, I think you may be overthinking it a bit. I got my 89 about a year ago and read everything I could find on it. But I was not aware it had the integrated braking until I had to replace my front right master cylinder.

 

Now I know it has it, I try not to overthink it. What I did when I first got the bike was found a big empty parking lot and just practiced a lot. I routinely will go and do figure 8's, stop and starts, low speed braking, ,hi speed braking, just to keep me tuned to the bike. That way I feel what is grabbing and how much, etc.

 

With my bike, it is not in the best condition for a 22 year old bike. Not sure even if the linked brakes still work, don't care cause I feel for what is happening.

 

My 2 cents worth.

 

Thanks,

Don

[OutKast]

CaptainJoe:

 

Just to be clear, ONLY the first gen have integrated brakes. Your 07 second gen does NOT have integrated brakes.

 

Not sure by your response if you understood that. If you did, maybe this was meant for someone else?

 

OutKast

[CaptainJoe]

Outkast, actually I did misread what bike it applied to, Skydoc17 had the same concern so thanks for the heads up guys. Might have just saved me from a accident. I might have assumed when I hit the rear it was also applying the front.

Actually I'm glad it dosen't as I am somewhat a control freak but would want ABS if they ever became available.

Thanks again

Joe

[Rick Butler]

Yeah Guys,

 

I never said there were not any issues with integrated brakes on the 1st Gen Ventures because their certainly are....in loose road conditions which are bad for using the front brakes. Actually BMW has it right on their new bikes (which also have anti-lock) where the rear brake just actuates the rear brake and then the front brake master actuates the front calipers as well as the rear caliper and proportions more fluid to the front that harder the front lever is pressed. But with the 1st gen Venture (and Goldwings, etc) linked brakes you understood what was happening and just dealt with it.

 

But the point the article made was that overall, you were better off with linked brakes than you were witout them. And I'm a prime example of that where I have totaled (and rebuilt) my 02 Venture, three times in 3 years.....all from rear wheel lockup. When I first realized that our RSV and RSTD had toooooo much rear caliper for an unlinked system, my 1st solution was to install a 1st gen system on the RSV which proved to be too difficult. Then I addressed just the rear caliper to slow the fluid to the its 4 pistons. And I ended up with an adjustable proportioning valve off the rear master cylinder with a stainless line and the problem was solved. Now this may not be an issue for someone who had NOT ridden a linked brake bike for over 17 years....but it was for me, where my right foot had developed some bad breaking habits over this period.

 

In case everyone has forgotten, I still offer this rear brake solution in the Classifieds which Don has dubbed the "Butler Mod"? So if you have (or have had) issues with rear wheel lockup, this solution is still available?

 

Rick

[Snaggletooth]

Ok, here is what I can tell you from what I have learned about the linked brakes and proportioning valve on the VR.

 

The proportioning valve is 70/30. 70% to the front left and 30% to the rear brake. BUT.....As you apply pressure with the foot pedal the pressure begins to build in the master and flows into the proportioning valve. At first pressure is only applied to the rear brake. As pressure increases.....the valve spool opens and allows fluid to go to the front left caliper. This will always allow the rear brake to activate first.

 

I had major brake issues when I bought my '84 only to find out that the PO or the Yammy shop had opened the proportioning valve and some point and had NOT reassembled it in the correct order. As there is no rebuild kit or even a parts breakdown for the proportioning valve it was a lot of trial and error and a lot of brainstorming with other VR owners to find the proper assembly order. A member tore down his working valve off his own bike to find the answer.

 

After that I tried several different ways of using the brake system. I ran the valve gutted to give me 50/50 with the linked. I unlinked the system to go "old school", rear off pedal and the two front together off the hand lever. After that I returned to the 70/30 combination and linked plus I added the SS brake lines and that is where the bike is still at today.

 

I have found that a slight pressure on the rear pedal and using the "Friction Zone" as taught in the Ride Like a Pro course will give you the best control for the low speed turns. Trick is......keep your fingers off the front brake lever during tight turns.

 

So that may help you understand how the system works.

 

Mike

[CrazyHorse]

Integrated brakes were primarily developed for the weekend warrior rider whose riding skills are average or below. The guys that don't pay attention and are surprised by something so they have to slam on the brake and then they go down. More likely the rear rear brake for a couple of reasons. First many older riders (not trying to insult here)either taught not to use the front brake or scared they are going to flip over the bars doing a "stopie" while braking hard on front brake or taught to "lay it down". On these bike bikes its real hard to get them to do a stopie I doubt they even could with the weight more likely the rear slides out on them. The second reason I believe is the oversized car like rear brake pedals you see on some of these classic bikes like Harelys coupled with the foot position feet forward it "screams stomp on me". Couple that with forward weight shift that happens as you slow down your body weight is now helping brake some also. I think the design of some bikes encourages this. A peg set up is more difficult generate the same force as can on a feet forward bike due to having to rotate your foot and pressing down some of that pressure is stopped by the peg where as it is not on a feet forward bike.

 

I de-linked my brakes on my 1990 1st Gen because I don't really want the bike determining for me. People should really learn to use their front brake it's the heart of stopping power 70-80%. I see many riders when they come to a stop never even use their front brake. Of course on certain surfaces front brake is less desirable. Maybe they are a good idea for some people but I'd like to have the choice. I think bike design maybe a problem just a guess here if you notice today's sport bikes have huge front brake rotors and tiny rear rotors. I wonder if this would help 2nd gen bikes a smaller rear rotor design. I think the best bet would be ABS with with no linking or integrating something you could shut on and off and use it when you want too. Just my 2 cents.

Edited January 9, 2011 by CrazyHorse