Accessory Wiring ?

[GolfVenture]

Where does one attach the power wire to the accessory side of the electricial when adding a set of additional lights, so the key controls when the additional lights get power?

[bkuhr]

You did not state what model this is for, although I see in your profile you have an '89.

I can only speek for the '83 I have but would assume yours to be simular.

On the '83 with stock fuse block, there are 2 screw terminals at the top of the fuse block. The right is 10Amp fused power for ACC, red wire; and the left is ground, black wire.

You need to install a relay for most all accessorys to avoid overloading bikes electrical system. Use a relay with 12volt coil and contacts rated for at leat 1.5 times your accessory load in amps. You would wire the coil of the relay to the ACC screws, so the relay will only activate when bike in on or acc. The contacts of the relay need to be wired with a fuse rated for you accessory(lights) to the plus terminal of the battery, and to you accessory. Use a new ground from frame or engine or battery minus. Do not use the ground acc screw,(except for relay coil ground), as this could also overload bike wiring.

If you want accessory to be individually switched to be able to turn off even when bike on, add a new switch between the acc screw and relay coil. This way you can use small gage wiring and small low power switch.

[saddlebum]

Very simple and will work for any bike.

Most common relay will have the terminals numbered as such 30, 85, 86, 87, and may or maynot include 87a

 

The simple way to wire it is as such.

 

1. Term. 30 direct to Battery. use at least 16 gauge wire with inline fuse properly rated for your lights about 15 amp

 

2. Term. 87 Directly to your additional lights. Also use at least 16 gauge wire.

 

3. term. 85 connect to acc., or ign., this will use the key off and on to turn the relay off and on in turn switching the lights off and on. 18 gauge wire will be fine here as there is no load other than the relay.

 

4. Term 86 connect to ground or batt neg. ( you can also put a small switch on this wire to use as an overide should you want to shut down the lights for any reason.) 18 gauge wire here as well

 

5. term 87a if your relay has it simply ignore

[GolfVenture]

Thank You Bkuhr & Saddlebum:

I just came back with the relay and wires, so it will be my next quick project.

[Bubber]

Saddlebum

Is that an industry standard opperating procedure?

Do they all use this theory when relays are used?

Thanks for the info!

[saddlebum]

Saddlebum

 

Is that an industry standard opperating procedure?

 

Do they all use this theory when relays are used?

 

Thanks for the info!

Yes this is a basic hook up for any vehicle from bikes to big riggs. However there are a lot of variations that you can do, by revising the wiring and/or adding multiple relays, and even using the 87a terminal. It all depends on what it is you want to accomplish. I once had to use three relays in a single circuit I designed to overide the wiring system in a big rigg for a speacial function related to some equipment mounted on the rigg.

The terminal numbers I used are found on the more common automotive relays, these being used on about 80% of all vehicles, both on shore and off shore. There are however some relays that differ but in all cases you would have at least 2 control terminals 1 supply terminal and 1 load terminal. And of course there are thousands of special purpose relay's out there that perform multiple functions.

Edited November 10, 2010 by saddlebum

[dingy]

If you have some spare time, here is a lengthy write up I did on usage of relays and the general operation of auto style relays. There are also a few schematics in there on horn, fog lights, driving lights, RSV ignition switch bypass & RSV headlight cut-out when cranking. I don't think this ever made it to the tech section.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=43150

 

Personally, and from industrial standard practice, I would prefer to put the switch in the positive leg of the relay coil, so fuse and switch are on positive side. This would shorten 'Hot' leg run when circuit is shut down. In actuality, it makes no electrical difference if switch is in positive or negative leg of the relay coil.

 

One thing to note about buying relays at Auto Zone, Pep Boys etc. Not every relay that has 5 pins on the base has an 87A contact. I have seen several at these stores on the shelf that have two 87 contacts. These are both NO (normally open) contacts. The second pin is just a tie point for an extra wire. This can cause confusion if you are assuming a 5 pin relay has both an 87 & 87A contact.

 

Below is a picture of a relay with 5 pins and lacking an 87A (NC) contact.

 

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af193/gdingy101/relay6a.jpg

 

Gary

Edited November 10, 2010 by dingy
Added relay picture

[saddlebum]

Not every relay that has 5 pins on the base has an 87A contact. I have seen several at these stores on the shelf that have two 87 contacts. These are both NO (normally open) contacts. The second pin is just a tie point for an extra wire. This can cause confusion if you are assuming a 5 pin relay has both an 87 & 87A contact.

 

This is a good point Dingy just to make it clear if the relay has two 87 terminals both would be normally open, but if it has an 87 terminal and an 87a terminal . 87 would be normally open while 87a is normally closed. in other words 87 would complete a connection when signal power is applied while 87a would open a connection when power is applied. Handy if you want to divert power from say a road light to a fog light with the flip of a switch.

 

P/S Dingy, that is a nice right up (relay's 101). Hope you don't mind me sharing it with my apprentices at work.

 

 

Personally, and from industrial standard practice, I would prefer to put the switch in the positive leg of the relay coil, so fuse and switch are on positive side. This would shorten 'Hot' leg run when circuit is shut down. In actuality, it makes no electrical difference if switch is in positive or negative leg of the relay coil.

 

The reason I prefer the to run the switch on the ground side is because, installing an additional switch on the positve side requires runing extra wire to and from the switch increasing the number of positve wires that could possible rub through to ground, causing a short. were as placeing the switch on the ground side requires only that you run a wire from the relay to the switch and to the nearest ground. This reduces the amount of wire used, and resulting in fewer chances of a live wire rubbing through to ground. If a ground wire should rub through, it would not result in a live short. The worst thing that can happen if the ground wire shorted to ground and only if it is a switched ground is cause the light for example to stay on and if unnoticed run the battery down. This is good since these types of shorts almost never result in an electrical fire. were a shorted pos wire can. Yes all wiring should be properly run and protected but not everyone is a perfectionist and stuff sometimes happens.

 

As a matter fact you can actually run a short jumper from pin 30 to pin 85 then run a wire from pin 86to a switch and fro the switch to the nearest ground and you would come close to eliminating 50% of your wiring.

 

A NOTE!! No matter which method one chooses fuses should always be installed in the positve wire and as close to the source of power as is practical.

Edited October 25, 2011 by saddlebum

[GolfVenture]

With this good info, I do understand how to install the relay. I do want to add a manuel switch. I'd like to use the switch that came with the lights. It has 3 connectors. 1) Hot 2) Lights 3) for ground. This is where I'm not to sure if my thinking is correct. My though is that wheather I install the switch on the Positive or Negative side, that I would just need to use the connectors 1 & 2 of the switch. So which ever side I select I would cut the wire then put the 2 cut ends onto connectors 1 & 2 of the switch. Is that correct or not?

 

I do not understand why using the positive side requires an additional wire. Nor do I understand the term 'Hot' leg run. Could you explain in laymans term please.

[bkuhr]

Although it is sometimes possible to 'switch' the ground side of a circuit, as Dingy posted above, it is not normally recommended, and in your paticular case with new light assemblies, most light housings receive a secondary ground thru the housing/mounting, and to put a switch in a housing ground wire will not open the circuit if it continues to receive ground from housing.

As per switch you plan to use, your description sounds like a lighted switch, where a LED in the handle/rocker turns on when switch is on. The LED get power from position #1 and ground from position #3, and the load(lamps) on position #2. Although could work as you described using positions #1 and #2 on the ground side, the LED will not work and best to use a designed.

[GolfVenture]

So if I want the LED to light up when the switch is on, all I need to do is to provide a gournd to the 3rd connector. That is if I put the switch on the positive side.

[bkuhr]

So if I want the LED to light up when the switch is on, all I need to do is to provide a gournd to the 3rd connector. That is if I put the switch on the positive side.

 

yep:thumbsup:

[GolfVenture]

YaBaDaBaDo. I sure learned alot today. Electronics 101. Thank you all.

[dingy]

With this good info, I do understand how to install the relay. I do want to add a manuel switch. I'd like to use the switch that came with the lights. It has 3 connectors. 1) Hot 2) Lights 3) for ground. This is where I'm not to sure if my thinking is correct. My though is that wheather I install the switch on the Positive or Negative side, that I would just need to use the connectors 1 & 2 of the switch. So which ever side I select I would cut the wire then put the 2 cut ends onto connectors 1 & 2 of the switch. Is that correct or not?

 

I do not understand why using the positive side requires an additional wire. Nor do I understand the term 'Hot' leg run. Could you explain in laymans term please.

 

 

The term 'Hot Leg' refers to the ungrounded side of an electrical circuit. In the case of a 12 volt battery, it implies the wire attached to the positive battery terminal. This wire is considered the 'Hot Leg' up to the point where it ties into the load (lights, horn etc.) on the circuit. The other side of the load is the 'Neutral' side. These two terms are very common in AC circuits. With 12v battery circuits the wiring beyond the load in a circuit it is almost always referred to as the 'Ground' side.

 

Below is a schematic showing the wiring for a set of driving lights. The purpose of using a relay in this application is two fold. First it does not require the load of the driving lights to go through the key switch, which in the case of the RSV's is already overloaded. Second, it provides for the entire circuit lighting to be be ran in a larger gauge of wiring. The wiring on the Ventures was downsized to the minimum requirements for the amperage drawn by the stock circuits. The reasoning behind this is the economics of mass producing thousands of bikes each year. Every dollar (or yen in this case), results in a lower cost point per unit produced.

 

The addition of a standard auto type relay puts a small additional load on the wiring, in the range of 1/4 of an amp. The driving lights draw roughly 8 amps.

 

As noted above, do not tie load side of the circuit into the accessory wiring terminals. Run a wire directly to the positive side of the battery for this connection. For the ground side, generally any direct main frame or motor block connection will suffice, being sure to clean the connecting surface of any paint or contaminants. Some places that are not a good are the rear sub-frame or the front fairing frames on a 1st Gen. Reasoning behind this is these two sub frames will most likely not have a direct ground connection to the negative side of the battery. The will show as being grounded, but the path to ground will be through several bolted connections that will most likely have paint between the mating surfaces. Over time, this could be a point of high resistance for the path to ground. The stock wiring harness, at least on the 1st gens, has a grounded conductor, that bolts to the motor block and another that bolts to the main frame.

 

The switched side of the relay (coil) can be tied into the accessory circuit if desired. If the accessory circuit is used as a feed for the switched side of the relay, the 5 amp fuse shown in the attached schematic could be eliminated, as the accessory circuit is already fused.

 

Gary

 

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af193/gdingy101/DrivingLightAdditiona.jpg

[saddlebum]

Although it is sometimes possible to 'switch' the ground side of a circuit, as Dingy posted above, it is not normally recommended, and in your paticular case with new light assemblies, most light housings receive a secondary ground thru the housing/mounting, and to put a switch in a housing ground wire will not open the circuit if it continues to receive ground from housing.

As per switch you plan to use, your description sounds like a lighted switch, where a LED in the handle/rocker turns on when switch is on. The LED get power from position #1 and ground from position #3, and the load(lamps) on position #2. Although could work as you described using positions #1 and #2 on the ground side, the LED will not work and best to use a designed.

Actually today most vehicles and almost all big rigs use ground switching. Kenworth trucks started using back in the eightys. The reason for this is, A) it reduces live runs and B) reduces amount of wire. C) reduces the risk of an electrical fire as mentioned in my earlier post. Today much of the circuits are controlled by on board ECM's and computers. Possitve battery power will be fed directly to the component, while the ground side of the component will be fed to the ECM. The ECM then internaly controls the circuit by switching the ground off or on as required. This is why today when diagnosing electrical faults, a thorough inspection of all grounds is the first step.

 

 

 

With reguards to putting a switch on the ground side. The switch is NOT installed on the ground side of the light, BUT installed on the relay's control ground, and therfore not affected by the way the light itself is grounded. If the switch has a light you run pos to the third terminal if cuting into the relay's ground wire, and ground to the third terminal if cutting into the relays positive control wire. This does not however apply to switches using led lights as they are polarity sensitive.

Edited November 11, 2010 by saddlebum

[bkuhr]

 

If the switch has a light you run pos to the third terminal if cuting into the relay's ground wire, and ground to the third terminal if cutting into the relays positive control wire.

 

This would work if the switch is internally lighted with incadescent bulb, but if lighted with LED, which is a polarity sensitive diode that must be forward biased to turn on, power must be applied as designed to the common port for the switching contact and ground to the specified third port. If you reversed this hookup for the LED, you would be reverse biasing the diode, and possible beyond the max rev bias limit to where you could see the 'magic smoke'

 

I agree with your previous statemant of ECMs and other solid state systems preform 'ground switching' of systems they are controliing, they seldom directly control a load as the solid states are limited in the amount of power they can 'sink', and typically switch the ground side of relays-simular to the way you have advised Golf&Venture to wire his lights, but most operator controlled switches on autos, military aircraft and our motorcycles-(not sure about new generation big rigs), are hot side switching, with exceptions being switching sensors(temp, oil level-press,kickstand), typically switching ground.

 

With hot side switching, power to the load is cut off at the switch, which is typically very near the power buss and a short run of energized wire,(buss to switch). With ground switching, power is energized all the way thru the load to the ground switch. A lot of energized wire with no way to de-energize short of pulling fuse/breaker. Aside from greater potential for chaffing wire problems, makes difficult for troubleshooting problems when necessary.

[GolfVenture]

One last question. Is it ok to use thicker gage wire than what the drawing calls out for. I have some 12 AWG wire, rather than buying more wire.

[dingy]

One last question. Is it ok to use thicker gage wire than what the drawing calls out for. I have some 12 AWG wire, rather than buying more wire.

 

Heavier gauge wire is fine, there is little downside in going to a larger gauge.

 

Fusing does not have to increase due to larger wires.

 

Also, soldering wires in lieu of using scotch-lock type connectors is a good idea. When soldering, there are two conditions to be aware of. One is the mechanical connection between wires being joined. This means that the wires should not rely solely on the solder to hold them in place. I like to use a crimp style connector that has had the plastic insulator removed to hold wires together, which is then soldered. If it is an inline connection where an end of one wire is being spliced into another through wire, wrap the end of the wire around the wire being tapped into several times. The second connection is the electrical connection that the solder forms. Solder is not a good mechanical connector as it is to soft.

 

Also use a non-acid soldering flux to prep connection. Use a rosin core type solder. Don't use 'Plumbing' type solder on electrical components.

 

On connections other than a midline tap, heat shrink tubing is much easier to use than electrical tape.

 

On the larger gauge wires, you will need more heat than a small soldering iron can provide. I prefer a higher wattage soldering gun. These provide a higher wattage, which quickly heats solder point up sufficiently. If high enough wattage is not used, the heat must be applied longer, which results in heating of wire conductors beyond solder point and the melting of insulation.

 

Gary

Edited November 11, 2010 by dingy
spelling

[GolfVenture]

I think this diagram shows it all. So if I follow this diagram and where it says Switched Power Source I hook it up to the Accessory screw in the fuse box. This will only allow the lights to work when the key is on. And then the lighted switch allows me the control to shut the lights off while the key is on and the light on the light switch will also work.

 

The part I do not understand is why the relay is connected directly to the battery. I thought all the power was comming from the powered accessory.

 

But I will follow the diagram.

 

This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 842x365 and weights 44KB.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af193/gdingy101/DrivingLightAdditiona.jpg

[saddlebum]

I think this diagram shows it all. So if I follow this diagram and where it says Switched Power Source I hook it up to the Accessory screw in the fuse box. This will only allow the lights to work when the key is on. And then the lighted switch allows me the control to shut the lights off while the key is on and the light on the light switch will also work.

 

The part I do not understand is why the relay is connected directly to the battery. I thought all the power was comming from the powered accessory.

 

But I will follow the diagram.

 

This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 842x365 and weights 44KB.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af193/gdingy101/DrivingLightAdditiona.jpg

No the power from the acc. terminal only serves to turn the relay off and on. Think of the relay as a switch controlling the heavier wires, which supply power to the lights. think of the smaller ground and acc. wires as the fingers flipping that switch.

[GolfVenture]

Success, Thank you all.

 

It is the 1st relay that I've installed.

 

Now I'm moving on to upgrading the horn.

[saddlebum]

Success, Thank you all.

 

It is the 1st relay that I've installed.

 

Now I'm moving on to upgrading the horn.

I suggest a pair of 24" trumpets and a 2hp compressor

Edited November 13, 2010 by saddlebum

[GolfVenture]

Well after reading much about horns here, I purchased a set of Stebel TM-80s. Not as loud as your suggested air horns. Being that I will not be adding a switch, only a relay, it will be a bit easier.

 

I do have one question, with the light relay. I put the light relay in the faring CB/Air Compressor Controller compartment. I initially used velcro, and stuck it Up and Off to the Left under the lip of the compartment opening. There is just enought room there for a few relays. Well the stickem part of the Velcro does not stick very good to plastic. So it is just laying there in the compartment for now. I could drill a hole but I do not like drilling into the fairing. I was going to see if the auto store may have some strong double sided 3M tape.

 

What seem to be the groups recommended solution here.

[dingy]

Well after reading much about horns here, I purchased a set of Stebel TM-80s. Not as loud as your suggested air horns. Being that I will not be adding a switch, only a relay, it will be a bit easier.

 

 

Air horn addition is similar to the driving light, except in this case you will be switching the negative side of the coil.

 

The stock horn button is on the negative (grounded) leg of the circuit.

 

New wiring shown inside dashed lines.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af193/gdingy101/airhornaddition.jpg

 

Gary

[saddlebum]

Before getting too carried away try cleaning the surface with brake clean first then sticking the velcro to it. also not all velcro is of the same quality. I get mine from the volvo truck dealer where I work. it is so strong that it is used to hold interior panels. faileng that you cold also use two sided trim tape. comes in a roll and availble at almost any automotive store.