Has anybody tried the lifesaver TCB yet?

[Orrin]

Kit, Don, and others, I wish I could ad to this discussion as I have the TCB. It is not installed and I can't ride yet. (just got bad news from the orthopedic surgeon, bone not coming together and will likley need surgery bums me out.)

 

Anyway, after reading and careful consideration of this thread and others concerning rear brake lock up on this series of bikes, I am looking into changing our the rear caliper to a 2 pot pin slider instead of the 4 pot we no have. The parts guy at Englehart and the service manager are helping me find what will fit and be compatable with my RSTD. They are both friends, fortunate for that.

 

I would like your input. I think that with any brake you should have to press, pull, or whatever to get lock up. Just too much rear brake for the bike.

[Freebird]

Rick Butler changed his out. I don't remember what caliper he went with. I'll try to do a search and see what I can find. Sorry to hear about the leg and hope it doesn't come to that.

[Guest KitCarson]

Hi Orrin: Hope your leg gets better. Maybe take an x-ray to another Doctor, just for an opinion first...........we are all older now.........some things like bones just do not heal so fast anymore. It is cold up there now anyways.....you will be fine by spring. Kit

[Orrin]

Don, Kit, it is not the leg but the collar bone. However thanks for the thoughts. My PT noticed that I was not progessing as I should and when I saw the doc on Wed. he also noticed it and took x-rays and did exam of bones. I feel that I am receiving great care and med advice. I will get there, just takes time.

 

My employer has been great and is letting me work part time, keeps me in a company car and gas, pays my health insurance and pays me an absurd amount of money per hour. I really make every effort to give them my best. I am pretty damn lucky.

[Guest KitCarson]

Oh well if it is just a collar bone.........just throw it away you have another one on the other side:rotfl:

[Orrin]

:rotf::rotf::rotf:

[k7mdl]

I received a green for the rear and blue for the front on my '07 RSV. Installed the front one today and gave it a test drive after the rain stopped.

 

I can skid the front tire pretty fast/easily still on wet/damp roads. Not the best way to evaluate the difference, but my first thoughts are that I could do better with the red or orange, blue might be too stiff to do justice. With the blue installed I still have more than enough braking power with little effort required so I can afford to give up some stiffness. Will have to try things on a dry day. Then maybe exchange for a softer version.

[Guest KitCarson]

I received a green for the rear and blue for the front on my '07 RSV. Installed the front one today and gave it a test drive after the rain stopped.

 

I can skid the front tire pretty fast/easily still on wet/damp roads. Not the best way to evaluate the difference, but my first thoughts are that I could do better with the red or orange, blue might be too stiff to do justice. With the blue installed I still have more than enough braking power with little effort required so I can afford to give up some stiffness. Will have to try things on a dry day. Then maybe exchange for a softer version.

Try the orange one, I do know the information on the web site for these Traction Controls, does recommend the blue one for heavy touring bikes.......but the Venture is somewhat over braked to begin with........I do not think there is any hope for the rear one, but the front works nicely with the orange TCB.

[Rick Butler]

Guys,

 

I have been following this Lifesaver TCB post with interest ever since I became aware of it from Orrin's original post. And I felt that if it worked as reported it would be a very valuable and less expensive option than my solution of using a proportioning valve on the rear caliper.

 

From the best that I can gather from what Kit has reported, this valve is really just a hydralic shock absorber to the brake caliper. However in our case on the rear caliper, there is so much volume of brake fluid that is being used in one place that this device cannot take enough shock to control a rear caliper lockup. This rear brake has 4 pistons being applied from one master cylinder and in all reality is way too much brake.

 

In fact I have even written Yamaha providing my research on this topic and I feel it has fallen on deaf ears. This bike (or any big bike without linked or ABS brakes) does not need a 4-pistion caliper on the rear brake.....period. Look at what other big bikes use, even Yamaha's Road Warrior or the newer Stratoliner....yeah a large 1-piston sliding pin caliper. And most of them use 4-piston front calipers, where the standard Road Star was upgraded to 4-piston calipers in 2005. They started out with just what we have, 2-piston sliding pin calipers in front and a 4-piston caliper in the rear. And these bikes are much lighter in the rear and the front than our RSVs. Go figure?

 

I think Don's suggestion of using both a proportioning valve and the TCB would be the optimum solution, but this really starts to get expensive. This is why I gave up on installing a converted 1st gen proportioning and metering valve and went with just an adjustable propotioning valve as the better solution.

 

In case any of you have not been following all of my posts on this issue, I will repeat my solution again again on my RSV. In fact this bike has almost killed my wife and I once, banged (broke my 2nd metacarpal) us up bad a second time, and tore me up the third time (broken collar bone). However I have rebuilt the same bike 3 times now and am still riding it with about 90K on it. After my last accident, I thought about selling it and getting somewthing with ABS, butgave it one last chance by installing a Speedway adjustable proportioning valve to the rear master cylinder, which solved all of my problems with this braking system.

 

However, I first installed 1st gen 4-piston front calipers and modified one of our front 2-piston calipers and put it on the rear. This mod was just taking the piston body from the left (I think) with the frame from the front right caliper. The right caliper will bolt up alright, but the bleed valve is at the lower part of the caliper and it will not bleed normally. The valve needs to be at the top of the system to get all the air out.

 

And when I first installed a proportioning valve, I tested it to see if it cut the pressure or the volume flowing to the caliper. The pressure stayed the same, so I concluded this valve just cut down on the volume allowing the pistons to advance slower than previous. This allows you to firmly press on the forward control brake pedal to set the caliper and pistons to the rotor and then to apply more constant pedal to brake as needed.

 

In the stock condition, this caliper will slam these 4 pistons to the rotor with just a fair amount of brake pedal movement. And if you are in normal control of your stop, you can apply better pressure to the rear. Howver when you get into an emergency sitiation, all bets are off and the right foot will do whatever it wants based upon past experiences......mostly from your car or truck emergency braking. The basic solution (as many have already pointed out) is to get into the habit of using your front brakes first and then come in with a properly modulated rear brake to come to a controlled stop.

 

In conclusion, I have spent alot of time and money to come to a better solution to this bike's braking system and now have it where I want it. In fact I plan on keeping it until it won't run any longer, because I love what pleasures these Ventures have given me (and Linda) since 1983, in spite of how bad we have been hurt on this last one. I'm just thankful that I'm still able to ride . And even more important that Linda will still ride with me . Just a another note. I have helmet decals I had made up on both sides of my helmet of "Crash Test Prototype" with the crash test symbol, but Linda wanted "Crash Test Dummy". Mine is a symbol of being a survivor and Linda's is for what our friends think of her for still riding with me.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Rick

 

PS: Sorry for getting to long winded

[Guest KitCarson]

Hi Rick: It is about time you showed up to help us out!! Nice to hear your input. I will have to study your letter about three times!! Then save it and print it out........I am not at all impressed with the results of the TCB on the rear Caliper. I do fully intend to install a proportioning valve. I had not considered using a front brake to move back to the rear........I have been looking for something else to fit......with no luck.

Your explanation of the TCB is right on, that is exactly what it is, a shock absorber, that quickly expands and due to the fluid volume, really does not accomplish anything.

So where do we get this proportioning valve, I will do a search for it in a bit. As for getting the air out of the upside down brake caliper.......would not a vacuum bleeder do this? Or a simple section of tubing left up high to form an air lock while bleeding the brakes.....(that will be the easy part)

I am glad you stopped in, and had your say, I have been stumbling around in the dark a bit, figured maybe even I was not getting the right results due to maybe making some kind of mistake......no..........I have not.....you just confirmed exactly what I have been thinking.

 

Thanks......take the knowledge of many, put a little guidance to it. and we may come up with something. Kit

 

 

Um....are the threads on the speedway which are NT.......compatible with the Venture.....adapters........nipple made at machine shop?

 

 

 

 

[Rocket]

As for getting the air out of the upside down brake caliper.......would not a vacuum bleeder do this? Or a simple section of tubing left up high to form an air lock while bleeding the brakes.....(that will be the easy part)

 

Thanks......take the knowledge of many, put a little guidance to it. and we may come up with something. Kit

 

 

The problem would be getting all the air out of the caliper itself. The easiest method I can think of offhand. Is to unbolt the caliper, slide it on the disk, so the bleeder screw is at the high point. Bleed the brakes & re-mount the caliper back in position.

[Guest KitCarson]

The problem would be getting all the air out of the caliper itself. The easiest method I can think of offhand. Is to unbolt the caliper, slide it on the disk, so the bleeder screw is at the high point. Bleed the brakes & re-mount the caliper back in position.

That was easy enough!!:thumbsup:

[Orrin]

Rick, I too am glad you spoke up on this thread. Your knowedge and opinions are well grounded and valuable to the rest of us.

 

I really like Rick's idea of a smaller caliper for the rear brake. Seams like the front is adequate.

 

It really is a shame that so many people have been injured and maybe a few killed because of this poorly designed brake system.

 

I wish I could contribute more, but it is going to be a while.

[Guest KitCarson]

Hopefully this will show up.......here is the correct proportioning valve, looks like some hydraulic fittings for thread match up will be required, which most likely I can find locally. There is a photo for this installation in the Tech library shown on Dons bike also. Will get on it...order one tomorrow.

 

Uh oh....not going to load up, it is an HTML File. Anyways go to http://www.speedwaymotors.com , go look at Dons illustration and order the one you see. Hey it is half the price of the TCB, The TCB can be left at the caliper and put this one in the brake line system. Then all we have to do is figure out how to set it!!!

[Guest KitCarson]

Rick, I too am glad you spoke up on this thread. Your knowedge and opinions are well grounded and valuable to the rest of us.

 

I really like Rick's idea of a smaller caliper for the rear brake. Seams like the front is adequate.

 

It really is a shame that so many people have been injured and maybe a few killed because of this poorly designed brake system.

 

I wish I could contribute more, but it is going to be a while.

Hi Orrin.

What I am going to do after having set here a few minutes and sorted out all my thoughts. Tomorrow I will order the proportioning valve from speedway. Once it gets here, find adapters, I may have some on my truck somewhere, install it and leave the TCB installed also. The proportioning valve will cut the volume down to the rear pistons, trial and error will determine the correct setting. If.........if........in conjunction with the TCB the rear brake can be set to lock up only with extreme pressure on it, ....the goal will be to be able to really romp on the rear brake pedal and not have the rear lock up , but still be able to have adequate stopping power. It may very well be this will work. If it does not totally solve the situation, I I will order a left and right section caliper designed for the front and install a smaller brake on the back. I feel the orange TCB on the front is adequate for the Venture, one does not want to lose all the braking power, good to have some solid braking if you need it........and like I have tried to say, and Rick just said.......in an emergency,,,,that foot does what it will,,,,,,it is only instinct brought on by a sudden rush of fear and an almost un-voluntary reaction. I honestly do not think anyone can over come this reaction, it is just what it is.

[Orrin]

Kit and Rick, that is why I am so concerned. I know what my behavior is when in an emergency. My right foot will have a mind of it's own and romp on the rear brake pedal. This is good in a way as it starts the transfer of weight to the front and you immediately start slowing, then the front brake will kick in with extra weight already on it.

 

However, the more I think about, and please tell me if I am wrong, the TCB and the proportioning valve both just slow or reduce shock to the brake being applied. Eventually all of that brake power will be transmitted to the rear wheel and cause lockup. All these things can do is slow the result for maybe a second.

 

IMHO the bike needs a reduced capacity rear brake caliper along with the other accessories being considered. However I am not confident in my opinion.

 

Another way to approach this , may be to install a master cylinder that does not build as high a pressure as the one on our bikes. Maybe one with a larger diameter piston. Hopefully this would result in reduced pressure to the rear wheel.

 

Thanks for your inputs and knowledge.

[BOO]

I have followed all the threads about the brakes. I have had a few close calls with the braking system and of course it's mostly "operator error" for the reasons Rick Butler outlined.

I just got around to looking at my new "Motorcycle Consumer News" magazine and it turns out there is a great article in it about braking and braking systems. I don't know if the article is available on-line but I will look. Good reading.

Jerry

[Guest KitCarson]

Kit and Rick, that is why I am so concerned. I know what my behavior is when in an emergency. My right foot will have a mind of it's own and romp on the rear brake pedal. This is good in a way as it starts the transfer of weight to the front and you immediately start slowing, then the front brake will kick in with extra weight already on it.

 

However, the more I think about, and please tell me if I am wrong, the TCB and the proportioning valve both just slow or reduce shock to the brake being applied. Eventually all of that brake power will be transmitted to the rear wheel and cause lockup. All these things can do is slow the result for maybe a second.

 

IMHO the bike needs a reduced capacity rear brake caliper along with the other accessories being considered. However I am not confident in my opinion.

 

Another way to approach this , may be to install a master cylinder that does not build as high a pressure as the one on our bikes. Maybe one with a larger diameter piston. Hopefully this would result in reduced pressure to the rear wheel.

 

Thanks for your inputs and knowledge.

No not exactly.....we are dealing with hydraulics. Pressure you can throw out the window, pressure is not the situation, it will be hard for you to understand, but pressure in any given system, in not a concern as long as it is adequate. Volume is the main issue, with hydraulic controls.

The TCB device simply works like a shock absorber. It seems to work well on the front as there is much less volume of fluid and pressure on the brake lever activates the shock piston in the TCB control and actually does prevent you from locking the brakes up prematurely. No not in the first second, with the orange device I have on the front, it takes just about all the strength in my hand to pull it hard enough to lock the front up. Before installation of this device, I could lock the front up very easily. Now it takes an extreme amount of hand pressure to lock up the front. Yes it will still eventually lock up......but it is now controllable and in an emergency, will you pull the front brake this hard, I really do not think so. Now, quite important, as speed increases up from the safe parking lot speeds to be testing on.....say on up to a realistic speed of 65 mph, it does take less pressure to start a skid with the front brake, and as your weight goes forward......it can lock.......so yes you do have to learn to control them, and once slowed down to 35 or so......hey romp on it all you want mine will not lock up at this speed without extreme hand pressure.

 

Now the rear one......with or without the TCB it locks up very, very quickly.......just today I zipped into the garage and hit the rear brake and slid across the floor.......I can hear the TCB actuate when I do this......but the rear system has more fluid......so the shock absorber cannot handle the load of the volume of fluid and in essence is worthless. What the proportioning valve will do is cut down the flow of volume to the caliper, pressure will remain the same. This valve is adjustable, and will take trial and error to adjust. Hopefully, with the volume cut down to the rear pistons, and with less volume the TCB will have a chance to work. The goal will be to allow a lot of foot pressure on the brake pedal, without locking up the brakes prematurely like they do now.

 

Yes you have to learn to use the front brake first....get that machine slowed down.......then bring the rear into play........and to have a functional rear brake(it will feel like old car brakes without power) that does not lock up almost instantly will be the goal.

 

An honest answer to will these devices ever totally eliminate lockup under the most extreme conditions........No they will not. This is a fact. All brakes in all vehicles that are not served by ABS, will with extreme pressure lock up, whether it be a bike or car. What we are trying to do is get the brakes under control to where they do not do this almost instantly like they do now. Stock brakes if you are riding along and all of a sudden a car pulls out in front of you and you hit the brakes.......I can assure you you will go into a skid. With the TCB on the front......you might.......you would have to really try......it just allows you the confidence to control it....allows you to romp on it in an emergency and not lock up under normal pressure.

Stock brakes do lock up under normal pressure at higher speeds.....with the TCB they do not........you have to use a lot of pressure. You also have to have the correct TCB installed. Use of the two devices together , may give us this control.

 

Now ABS brakes. Yes they will stop you without slipping a wheel, sometimes on sand or water they will also slip and grab, slip and grab but will maintain control. Some will get up on a stand and run down ABS Brakes. Tell us they are no good. That they increase stopping distance.

This is true. Stopping distance is increased. But slides and lock up are eliminated, there fore they are much more safe.

 

Bet you are real confused now..........Let me try the other device. When I get it installed and go play with it for a couple hours. Do not fear. I will give everyone an honest evaluation, at that time I will feel I have done all that is technically possible to do........I will quite simply at that time. say either these things work and are benificial, or they are not benificial, and it will be under emergency conditions........I will put that bike up to 60 mph and hit the rear brakes......I know enough to let off when that tire squalls, if you ever do go into a true slide......it is too late to let off. Skids are okay. Let me try it.........will take a couple weeks maybe.......depends on how long it takes to get the device.

[Rick Butler]

Kit,

 

Rocket hit it on the head with getting the caliper to bleed by taking it off the bracket and let it hang with the valve at the top. But since I had 2 calipers at hand, I played with them and took 2 and made one with the bleed valve at the top. But I had to also releave the outer bracket to accomodate the different sized pistons that were now switched.

 

Now on the valve, I'm not sure if you found it, but it's at the following link:

 

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/p/1979,9_Compact-Adjustable-Proportioning-Valve.html?itemNo=Proportioning%20Valve

 

But when I received this valve I was rather puzzled on how I would attach it to the master cylinder. The valve came with two 1/8” NPT brass fittings designed to mate with flared metal lines from a car. But as I was playing around with a fitting that came with my Galfer lines to mate with the master cylinder, I saw that with these brass fittings taken out the taped hole was almost identical to a 10mm X 1.00 pitch male fitting. In other words, it would start to screw in, but only so far because these were pipe threads and therefore tapered. So after checking the thread match from the NPT brass fitting to my 10mm X 1.00 Galfer fitting, I decided to re-tap these NPT threads for a 10mm 1.00 pitch which went just fine. But the threads were not an exact match so I chose to use banjo bolt copper washers to insure a complete seal at the fitting, and this worked.

 

I have attached a picture of a Wilwood valve showing both the input and output line fittings (with copper banjo washers), the original brass 1/8” NPT adapter and a 10mm X 1.0 pitch tap. I used 2 Galfer line fittings where the input side is 1/8” (28h Gas) on the left side and 10mm X 1.25 pitch on the right side which mates to the output from the master cylinder. These 1/8” fittings are straight threads which very closely match the 10mm X 1.00 threads. But the Speedway valve works much nicer in that it's a more compact valve that is a straight through design.

 

If you need any help on doing this I can do with what I did with Don and a couple of other guys....order the valve and line, and tap the valve and assemble it together so you can just bolt it up. But if you have the metric taps you can do it yourself. I get the line from CycleBrakes.com (800) 805-2118. Just tell them you want the line and 2 adapters that Rick Butler has a standing order for.

 

Let me know if you need anything else,

 

Rick

[Guest KitCarson]

Kit,

 

Rocket hit it on the head with getting the caliper to bleed by taking it off the bracket and let it hang with the valve at the top. But since I had 2 calipers at hand, I played with them and took 2 and made one with the bleed valve at the top. But I had to also releave the outer bracket to accomodate the different sized pistons that were now switched.

 

Now on the valve, I'm not sure if you found it, but it's at the following link:

 

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/p/1979,9_Compact-Adjustable-Proportioning-Valve.html?itemNo=Proportioning%20Valve

 

But when I received this valve I was rather puzzled on how I would attach it to the master cylinder. The valve came with two 1/8” NPT brass fittings designed to mate with flared metal lines from a car. But as I was playing around with a fitting that came with my Galfer lines to mate with the master cylinder, I saw that with these brass fittings taken out the taped hole was almost identical to a 10mm X 1.00 pitch male fitting. In other words, it would start to screw in, but only so far because these were pipe threads and therefore tapered. So after checking the thread match from the NPT brass fitting to my 10mm X 1.00 Galfer fitting, I decided to re-tap these NPT threads for a 10mm 1.00 pitch which went just fine. But the threads were not an exact match so I chose to use banjo bolt copper washers to insure a complete seal at the fitting, and this worked.

 

I have attached a picture of a Wilwood valve showing both the input and output line fittings (with copper banjo washers), the original brass 1/8” NPT adapter and a 10mm X 1.0 pitch tap. I used 2 Galfer line fittings where the input side is 1/8” (28h Gas) on the left side and 10mm X 1.25 pitch on the right side which mates to the output from the master cylinder. These 1/8” fittings are straight threads which very closely match the 10mm X 1.00 threads. But the Speedway valve works much nicer in that it's a more compact valve that is a straight through design.

 

If you need any help on doing this I can do with what I did with Don and a couple of other guys....order the valve and line, and tap the valve and assemble it together so you can just bolt it up. But if you have the metric taps you can do it yourself. I get the line from CycleBrakes.com (800) 805-2118. Just tell them you want the line and 2 adapters that Rick Butler has a standing order for.

 

Let me know if you need anything else,

 

Rick

Thank you a bunch!! I went to the site and it was the same, I was looking at two of the valves.......I had decided to get the knob style , the one that is purple in color on the web site. Hey thanks for putting the link on the site....I am a decent mechanic(actually I am a plumber-but used to own Harleys-so had to be a mechanic!!) but do not know a whole lot about computers!! I have decided to go with the purple Wilwood Valve as I think it can be mounted so the knob can be accessed up behind the exhaust, might even hang it upside down. Anyway the info on the new line and adapters was a huge help, saves me two days of running around and going to the hydraulic shop and having a hose made. I have lots of taps, If I do not have the 10 mm one.......I will run up and buy one right quick.

Thanks again. will let you know how, it all works, I am hoping it will do the job without changing the rear brake, the mount all that stuff. Maybe the TCB used with it and cut the volume down a lot........will have to see, this is step one. Kit

 

Okay I just caught what you were telling me......I will also order the smaller straight through valve design, not the offset wilwood. I was looking at your photo. The photo that is on the bike in the help area on this site.........duh........okay the light bulb just came on!!!

[Rick Butler]

Sorry Kit,

 

I didn't mean to throw you off with the picture of the Wilwood valve. I couldn't find one of the Speedway compact valve that showed the adapters and banjo washers with the line.

 

But for your info, here are a couple of pictures of the front and rear calipers after I finished installing them.

 

Rick

[SilvrT]

I have been reading this thread with immense interest. It kinda got me thinking about a TV show that featured various farmers who've become inventors of sorts...coming up with better ways for their equipment, etc. Now, I am in no way suggesting that anyone is a "farmer" in a derogitory sense...those shows impressed me, being a bit of a "tinkerer" myself.

 

Reading threads such as this is great information because when the time comes for me to get my next bike, I will surely be looking to see if any of these things have been done (assuming it will be an RSV or RSTD). One thing for sure... I really don't want to have to go adding this mod and that mod, etc to my bike when I get it...I just want to ride it and enjoy.

 

Or maybe I'll just stick with a 1st gen and not worry about such things!

:witch_brew:

[Guest KitCarson]

Sorry Kit,

 

I didn't mean to throw you off with the picture of the Wilwood valve. I couldn't find one of the Speedway compact valve that showed the adapters and banjo washers with the line.

 

But for your info, here are a couple of pictures of the front and rear calipers after I finished installing them.

 

Rick

You did not throw me off, I simply did not pay attention!! I have the Speedway valve ordered........went to the Napa Store and got a tap, and some banjo washers.......called your Cycle shop left them a message, evidently they are closed on Mondays. Thanks for the photos of the brake calipers.....if this step is required, I will order a right and left part and assemble them....get the right size pistons and all that. Again thank for all the help.

[Guest KitCarson]

I have been reading this thread with immense interest. It kinda got me thinking about a TV show that featured various farmers who've become inventors of sorts...coming up with better ways for their equipment, etc. Now, I am in no way suggesting that anyone is a "farmer" in a derogitory sense...those shows impressed me, being a bit of a "tinkerer" myself.

 

Reading threads such as this is great information because when the time comes for me to get my next bike, I will surely be looking to see if any of these things have been done (assuming it will be an RSV or RSTD). One thing for sure... I really don't want to have to go adding this mod and that mod, etc to my bike when I get it...I just want to ride it and enjoy.

 

Or maybe I'll just stick with a 1st gen and not worry about such things!

:witch_brew:

I can grow mushrooms too........have been known to spread a few around, could send you a few!!:rotfl:

[SilvrT]

I can grow mushrooms too........have been known to spread a few around, could send you a few!!:rotfl:

 

gawd but you're a "magical" person!