Leaky carbs

[CaptainJoe]

My 07 RSMV develped leak(s) about mid point on inner portion of carbs.

slow drips off of the screws that hold the "bottom plate with brass piece" on.

Pretty sure its a sticking float although I didn't notice any comming out overflow tubes?

Just about have carbs out. Will also check the petcock hoses and fuel pump return hoses while I'm at it.

At Freebirds MD while attempting a carb tune the bike wouldn't immediately come down off of the revs. We checked air passages and all were clear. we drained carbs and filled with carb cleaner. then 1/2 can of sea foam for 2 tanks. Ran good ever since.

This bike basically sat for 3 years, it's an 07 with only 482 origional miles and the owner told me he had to tap the carbs one time because they stuck. Since then Ive put 5000 miles on it...

 

Referenced:

Freebirds Removing carbs 3/21/07

V7goose Float levels 6/27/08

? Syncing carbs 8/18/06

Only thing I need is a sync tool after I get er done? Anyone close that has one?

I know, I know. I could have taken to shop and got fixed free. But would it have really ended up being fixed???????? I think not......Plus it really isn't costing me any :mo money:just my time and I like working on her.

Edited October 24, 2010 by CaptainJoe

[Brake Pad]

The shop I deal with TRYED to fix my carbs, but could not. I had to buy a whole new carb set. and guess what, they still dont work.

 

I took it for a long ride yesterday. I rolled throught the gears slowly, and all seems fine, but, hammering it through the gears, was a total screw up. 2nd gear would bog, and 4th gear would bog.

 

i 'm just starting to think the Bike shop Tech, has no Frikging Clue, what hes doing.

[CaptainJoe]

It's not just the bike techs but also the auto techs. The dealerships will cut corners where ever they can. Thats why I switched to toyota last year after being a loyal chevy/pontiac buyer all my life.

The workmanship of these bikes is excellent. I believe it is this subpar fuel they are making us use...

Make the next MD and they can probably get you straightened out. Better to learn something and be able to do it for the rest of your life.

[V7Goose]

My 07 RSMV develped leak(s) about mid point on inner portion of carbs.

slow drips off of the screws that hold the "bottom plate with brass piece" on.

Pretty sure its a sticking float although I didn't notice any comming out overflow tubes?

Just about have carbs out. Will also check the petcock hoses and fuel pump return hoses while I'm at it.

At Freebirds MD while attempting a carb tune the bike wouldn't immediately come down off of the revs. We checked air passages and all were clear.

This bike basically sat for 3 years, it's an 07 with only 482 origional miles and the owner told me he had to tap the carbs one time because they stuck. Since then Ive put 5000 miles on it...

Hey Joe, I'm pretty sure I remember your bike from MD this year, at least I remember one that really hung at high RPMS when dropping the throttle. But I did so many bikes, I cannot remember anything else. Do you recall if I made any comments on the overall vacuum level, such as it being quite low? Most of these bikes easily pull at least 10" Hg at idle, but a few do not.

 

First, I don't have any ideas on the fuel leak. In fact, I don't have any idea at all what part you are calling "the screws that hold the "bottom plate with brass piece" on." But if you have a stuck float valve, you WILL get fuel coming out of one of the vent tubes when the key is on. Of course, if one of the tubes is off or kinked somehow, that would affect it, but I have never run into a problem with the tubes except that the factory always crosses them (so the tube from the left carbs drains at the RIGHT air cleaner and vice versa). I stressed the key on bit because the fuel pump will continually push fuel through the stuck valve and out the vent. But with the key off, there probably won't be much pressure there, so any overflow might not be enough to push all the way up into the overflow tube. In this case, you could get severe engine damage if the engine stops with an intake valve open on the same cylinder that has a stuck float valve. - possible hydro-lock and oil diluted with gas. So finding this problem is quite important! And that is also why the manual says to shut off the fuel at the tank when stopping the bike. Most modern bikes have vacuum operated petcocks that do this for you, but ours does not because of the fuel pump.

 

As for other carb issues, after seeing that this bike sat for so long, I'd bet your idle jets are mostly or totally plugged. If your idle vacuum is below 10" Hg, this would pretty much confirm that, since your idle adjustment would need to open the slides a lot to allow enough fuel through the main jets for idling. When you have the carbs open, remove the idle jets and look through them - you should see a very small, but perfectly round spot of light. Anything else is bad and needs to be cleaned.

 

Do NOT NOT NOT push anything though the jet to clean it! Jets are very easy to damage. Use spray carb cleaner in a little bowl to soak the jets, then blow through them with compressed air, and repeat as much as needed to finally clear the jet completely. All four pilot jets are the same, so nothing to mix up. But NOT so with the main jets - there are three different jet sizes, so pay close attention to which ones are where and do not mix those.

 

I would also change that fuel filter if you have not already done it - the same stuff that clogs up carburetors plays hell with fuel filters.

Goose

[CaptainJoe]

Yup that was my bike V7GOOSE.

vacum level tested low and was jumping aound alot. Never did get the rev to drop immediately. Mine was the 07 midnight to the right of driveway before awning. travelinman and a few others helped including yourself.

does not drip when key off only when on and then its drip drip drip off of the float bowl bolts making entire center of engine below carbs wet. The brass piece/caps I was referring to is circular on the backside of carb and I believe they are over the mixing screws?

Will do, as per your instructions and am gonna go check my oil RIGHT NOW!

THANK You VERY MUCH. That would have ruined my engine and day...

[mrich12000]

Pine-Sol, This what you need to get to clean your carbs!!

You need to get this stuff.

1) 5 gallon Rubber maid Bini.

2)10 1 liter bottles of Pine-Sol

3)aquarium pump, with 6ft 1/4 " clear hose for circulation.

Soak for 6-10 hrs, wash it warm water, will come out factory clean no gook Smells nice to.

also make a small parts container from a 1 lit. cola bottle cut the bottle 6" from the bottom, punch 1/8 th holes in to the bottle for circulation.

place the little bits in here.

4) Disassemble the carb set don't' split the carbs immerse into the Pin-Sol you have pored into the Bini. make up the fish pump to agitates the solution so there is flow around the carb bits. Use you ingenuity(Brain) :smash2:

to make this work you can hang the pump off the Bini so it will work. Use a weight to hold the intake and pressure side into the solution. (like a 1/4 " nut)

5) reasemble as per the shop manal of your carbs spec..

 

So what you have made is a Superior carb cleaning station that smells good and can clean any carb out there including automotive carbs ,like Holley.

 

:mo money:Cost@ Canadian $36.50, US, Wallmart @$23.00 Don't ask why:ignore:..

Walmart has all your parts for this .

if you make it? let me know how it came out...

NOTE *** you do this on your own ....

 

Mike in Calgary..

Edited October 26, 2010 by mrich12000
spellin

[V7Goose]

Well, it may work for you, but I cannot provide any information, good or bad, about putting Pin-Sol in a carbretor. I don't think I would. . . .

 

But more importantly (for me, at least), I would NEVER follow instructions printed in PINK! Yuck!

 

Goose

[mrich12000]

It works. See the MHS WIMIS specs on their web. dissolves varnish and grease. Look no more PINK lol..

[CaptainJoe]

Update...

Well got the carbs all cleaned up with carb cleaner and pressurized air and decided to test by filling float bowls with a clear tube hooked up to a suspended gas bottle. Squeezed bottle and it looked like it was fixed. Left it on workbench and when I came back an hour later there was some gas "about a teaspoon" on workbench.

When I took the float bowl covers off, I noticed there was whiteish stuff stuck in places on the oring gasket on float bowl cover. Very carefully scraped off and put some armorall to help rubber. Am assuming its oxidization or residue from leaking gas?

looks like I need new orings.... Hopefully I won't have to buy an entire rebuild kit.

Was also thinking I could use some formagaskeT... Any thoughts?

Haven't used the Pinesol but will give it a shot in the future as I'm always tearing something apart.

Ohhhhhhh, almost forgot... while I had them torn down I adjusted the floats to 11/32...

Sorry I don't have one of those high techy digital calipers. That should be close enoughthough(.34375) They were set around .250 from factory and all were the same.

[V7Goose]

I certainly have not seen your carbs, so I am just guessing, but I doubt you need gaskets (o-rings) for the float bowls. I have done over 200 of these carbs, and even bikes from 99 and 00 have been fine with the original bowl gaskets.

 

There is often some gay or tan crud on the gaskets - most often it seem just like some of the original gasket glue they used at the factory to hold the o-rings in place. I have never done anything more than use my thumb nail to scrape those gaskets and the bowl mating surface clean, and they have always sealed fine.

 

I would not use any form-a-gasket type of stuff on the float bowls.

 

If you suspect you have a leak somewhere, get some spray foot powder. Put it all together and pressurize the system just like you did before, then spray all the various joints and surfaces with the spray powder. Any leaking will be vary obvious.

Goose

[CaptainJoe]

Thanks,

Will try the spray foot powder.

Your probably right on the glue being on the oring, that makes sense. The other thing I didn't mention is the 2 of the orings looked like they had pitting and were thin in spots. The other two were round and pristine new looking. Thats why I assumed they were the culpret but I couldn't see where the fuel was initially leaking.

Hopefully the foot spray will help me narrow down 'exactly' where they are leaking.

[CaptainJoe]

Update:

Tried the spray foot powder. Nboy did those carbs smell PURDY.

Worked like a charm after I pressurized. One can very clearly see that

3 of the 4 orings are failing.

Upon closer inspection there appear to be pits and very thin places in the orings.

 

I know at MD we put carb cleaner in the carbs and let her sit for about an hour before we drained and left the gas run thru her. That shouldn't have killed the orings should it? I'm at a loss for why they failed.

 

Now I gotta go see if I can order just the float bowl orings.

Edited October 26, 2010 by CaptainJoe

[V7Goose]

No, I wouldn't have expected any commercial spray carb cleaner to destroy those O-rings, ESPECIALLY since the bowls were not removed (meaning the cleaner could not have even gotten all over the O-rings unless they were already leaking). It seems even stranger to me that you have a problem there with a bike that is so new.

 

But under the circumstances, since we cannot identify any other cause, I am forced to concede that the carb cleaner could possibly have been the culprit. You should not have any problem getting new O-rings.

 

After you have it all repaired, I'd love it if you would take one of those old O-rings and spray it with a bit of carb cleaner, then let it sit for an hour or so in a small cup. If it is going to damage the ring, it should feel sticky and soft after that. I'd love to know . . .

Goose

[CaptainJoe]

We think alike on that little experiment with carb cleaner.

Now to find a place to order the orings.

babbits wants 5.70 apiece so 22.80 but when I went to check out they want another

+18.00 for shipping. Thats kinda high isnt it?

part no is 4xv-14562-00-00

for a 2007 RSMV XVZ13TFMW

Were do you all get your OEM parts?

[V7Goose]

I normally compare about four different places, but one of these is often the best price:

http://www.boats.net/parts/search/Yamaha/parts.html

http://www.carolinacycle.com/

 

It is strange, but the lowest price is NOT always the same place, so it is not just a simple matter of % off list. Often when I need two or three parts, especially if they are a bit expensive, I will have to order from two different shops to get the lowest price on each.

 

But I rarely order Yamahaha parts off the net anymore. My dealer gives me a flat 20% off, and if I find it lower on the internet, he matches that price. So I simply swap sales tax for shipping, and I help keep a good dealer in business.

 

Since those rings are so small, I could probably order them here and mail them to you for no more than 50 cents shipping if you can't do better locally.

Goose

[CaptainJoe]

Thaks for the offer.

tomorrow i'll do the experiment. maybe.. to do it right, will have to get exact carb cleaner we used, believe it was STP in a big white can with 33%more. I bought 4 or 5 cans at MD.

Ordered the orings $4.99 apiece from Carliona cycle for $31 something altogether. $10 shipping is acceptable.

Thanks for everything. will let you know results of test. I've got some pics will send later.(if I can figure out how)

[V7Goose]

It works. See the MHS WIMIS specs on their web. dissolves varnish and grease. Look no more PINK lol..

Well sir, I'm sorry if I offended you with my joking comment about your first post, it was not intended.

 

Although I have never heard of using Pine-Sol in carburetors (nor do I have an inclination to try it), I think the idea is worth considering, so I thank you for posting it. I had not seen that before, and all ideas help build our knowledge base and mental tool box.

 

(And I do find pink lettering very difficult to read and just generally unpleasant - but hey, I don't think you were writing for me anyway.)

Goose

[RSTDdog]

Just curious, but when you had the carbs apart did you pull out the float valve seat (the brass part) and inspect the o-rings around the float seat??

 

When I had mine apart to put the float bowls back in the right spot the result of someone else being in there before me (be sure you pay attention to this detail since the bowls will interchange, but you won't be able to access the drains after the carbs are back on), I noticed on the two left side carbs, white residue and oxidation on the aluminum of the carburetor where the float seat goes and some pitting deterioration of the orings corresponding to the oxidation. I replaced all four of the orings on the brass seat, and polished the aluminum in the carb body where the float seat installs and put it all back together.

 

You can adjust the floats all you want, but if the o-rings around the float seat are compromised, fuel will seep past that point overfilling the carburetor. Something to check while your in there. You can clean the screens for the float valve at the same time.

 

RSTDdog

[mrich12000]

As for carb rebiuld parts a Canadian company in Kichener,Ontario has your parts.

 

http://www.siriusconinc.com/product-motorcycle_parts-39.htm

 

Chris or Marten great guys and if you have Skype you can talk to them and get your prts good prices.

 

Sory goose ..Mike.. As to the Pink I won't use it again. You should experiment with a set of carbs in the Pine-Sol, see if you like it. Cheers..

[CaptainJoe]

RSTDDOG, nope but that is only a phillips head screw away from being done.

that will create another problem though. On two of the carbs I couldnt get needle valve all the way out so i turned upside down and blasted the carb cleaner past the float needle.

there is a steel frame in the way on one side and a brass pin on the other.

i'll go down and inspect one of the leaky carbs.

I'm very careful when working on things and alway line up my parts in the positions they go.

Thanks

[CaptainJoe]

Well,

Orings under float needle have definately been compromised. Lower half has a discoloration and pitting on oring. top half of oring is pristine. Of the two carbs I checked both had the pitting on bottom of this small oring.

Will look around for orings as not going to pay 24.49 for needle valve set.

Seems the rubber used on the needle valves is of a different material than the orings as the rubber on the needle valves is pristine, as seen through a strong pair of reading glasses.

When carbs are full and you tip foward or backwards, along the length of the 4 carb unit, the gas will exit through the overflow tube "T's" at both ends. This indicates to me there is no obstruction in the overflows.

 

mrich12000

cant find the carb kit for my bike on that site. Prices look very good to me though.

their model description should be a drop down box otherwise youd have to type in an exact match for it to find something.

 

Well off to :mo money:Wallmart for some PINE-SOL and the auto parts store for some orings... and STP carb cleaner for our little experiment...

[V7Goose]

Well, not all spray carb cleaners are created equal, so it is very wise for you to look for the same brand you used. Frankly, I had not given this much thought in the past, and I didn ot particularly care what brand of carb cleaner I used. When I have people come over foer carb work, I just tell them to pick up a couple of cans before they get here.

 

Personally, I have always preferred Gumout Carb+Choke Cleaner (no particular reason why, until now). I currently have both Gumout and Autozone carb cleaners in the garage. After seeing your problems with the rubber, I took a closer look at both.

 

The Autozone Carb Cleaner does not have any cautions about where not to use - not one. In fact, the label tends to make it sound like it might be good for spritzing on just about ANYTHING dealing with intake or exhaust, including fuel injection. BUT . . . The label clearly says it contains both Methanol and Methylene Chloride! Methanol is well known for rubber damage, but not all types of rubber. My quick search showed that it looks like most types of common )-ring materials are safe with Methanol, in particular, nitrile rubber is generally safe with Methanol. I THINK that needle valve tips ore often nitrile rubber, as are some O-rings. But Methylene Chloride is MUCH MUCH worse on rubbers - it even eats nitrile rubber. The ONLY O-ring materials that are "USUALLY" safe with this stuff (for static seals only) is Fluorocarbon and Fluorosilicone.

 

In contrast to that very nasty stuff being sold by Autozone, the Gumout brand is clearly labled as "CONTAINS NO METHANOL OR METHYLENE CHLORIDE." But even though it does not have those bad things in it, the can still has several precautions on where not to use, including that it is not recommended for fuel injected vehicles. However, the MSDS does show that this stuff does contain MEK, which is damaging to many rubber types, including Nitrile.

 

Of course, we are usually not going to know what specific rubber compounds are used anywhere, so the best advice is to stay away from Methanol, and especially Methylene Chloride.

 

SO, I now have a new and very strong recommendation for anyone looking to buy a spray carb cleaner - READ THE LABELS AND DO NOT NOT NOT NOT BUY ANYTHING WITH METHYLENE CHLORIDE!!!! Personally, I think I'll stick with just using the Gumout brand. Has always worked well for me, and I am not aware of any damage.

 

Goose

 

BTW - the STP spray carb cleaner has been discontinued, but the MSDS does show that it contained Xylene, which is almost as bad on most rubbers as Methylene Chloride.

 

 

 

Hmmmm, after looking at all the rubbers that are damaged by just three brands of spray carb cleaner, maybe that Pine-Sol stuff is starting to sound better!

Edited October 27, 2010 by V7Goose

[CaptainJoe]

Went to hardware store and purchased (4) ID 1/4, OD 3/8, Width 1/16, Industry 010 Orings for .25 apiece... Put a little vaseline on em and they slipped right in.

OhhhhhhhYeaaaaah!

 

Upon research found out, Acetone while extreemely helpful to fuel milage, is very corrosive on rubber orings and rubber fuel lines. (Acetone is the main ingrediant in many carb cleaners).

 

Went to walmart, couldnt find STP... know I know why...

 

Gonna place a oring in acetone and see what happens...

[V7Goose]

Upon research found out, Acetone while extreemely helpful to fuel milage, is very corrosive on rubber orings and rubber fuel lines. (Acetone is the main ingrediant in many carb cleaners).

Sorry to have to disagree with you here, but that idea about acetone improving fuel mileage is totally false.

Goose

[RSTDdog]

captjoe,

 

You can file a small notch or drill a small hole in the metal frame large enough to push the float pin through with out splitting the carbs off the rack. Whoever worked on mine before me that put the float bowls on backwards had done that, but only on one side (left same side bowls were switched on),

 

You definitely want to pull and inspect all four.

 

I had some of the green o rings that came with a large R134A set for the last car I worked on the AC. There were some in there just larger than the original, but made for a snug fit. Not sure what they are made of.

 

Replacing those orings and resetting the float heights cured a pop on decel issue I was having. Runs good and I haven't even checked the carb sync since having it apart.

 

RSTDdog