Question about replacement fuel pump

[LilBeaver]

First of all, usually I hear the pump click a few times before I start 'er up. Last night (it was much colder than usual, not that it makes a difference) when I was heading home from work I got on, turned the key and didn't hear anything.

 

The bike ran perfectly fine all the way home (and I had ~145 miles on that particular tank). For kicks, about 1 mile away from my house I turned the fuel off, pulled in and parked. I let the bike sit for a minute or so and turned the key ON again to my surprise I didn't hear the clicking. I am presuming that my pump is toast (I will check the pump by jumping it from the battery when I get home to verify pump and not the relay)...

 

My questions are this:

1) Will our bikes run quite well (hard acceleration, high speeds, etc) even if the pump isn't pumping and I only have 1-2 gallons left in the tank?

 

2) What all is necessary to pick up if I go pick up one of those Mr. gasket pumps? Do I just need to get the appropriate fittings so that the hoses will effectively be out of one end? I recall reading that the #42s pump was no longer an option because it was redesigned - what is the difference between the 'new' and 'old' designs and what is it about the 'new' design that makes it not work for us?

 

 

Muchos grassybutt folks. (That's thanks a lot for those of you that don't speak spanglish).

[Eck]

For kicks, about 1 mile away from my house I turned the fuel off, pulled in and parked. I let the bike sit for a minute or so and turned the key ON again to my surprise I didn't hear the clicking. I am presuming that my pump is toast (I will check the pump by jumping it from the battery when I get home to verify pump and not the relay)...

 

You pump is not toast...!!!!!!!!!

 

if your bike runs and runs very well under a load, your pump is NOT toast..and it does not need to be replaced.

[LilBeaver]

For kicks, about 1 mile away from my house I turned the fuel off, pulled in and parked. I let the bike sit for a minute or so and turned the key ON again to my surprise I didn't hear the clicking. I am presuming that my pump is toast (I will check the pump by jumping it from the battery when I get home to verify pump and not the relay)...

 

You pump is not toast...!!!!!!!!!

 

if your bike runs and runs very well under a load, your pump is NOT toast..and it does not need to be replaced.

 

Okie-doke. Thanks. That is sort-of what I figured; I just found it weird that I didn't hear it click.

I think I might still look into making an 'investment' in one of those 40-50 replacement ones (opposed to the $200 OEM one)to have it ready to go, just in case...

[RandyR]

For kicks, about 1 mile away from my house I turned the fuel off, pulled in and parked. I let the bike sit for a minute or so and turned the key ON again to my surprise I didn't hear the clicking. I am presuming that my pump is toast (I will check the pump by jumping it from the battery when I get home to verify pump and not the relay)...

 

You pump is not toast...!!!!!!!!!

 

if your bike runs and runs very well under a load, your pump is NOT toast..and it does not need to be replaced.

 

ok. why wouldn't he hear it going clicky-clicky when he turns on the key, if the float bowls are empty?

[Eck]

 

ok. why wouldn't he hear it going clicky-clicky when he turns on the key, if the float bowls are empty?

 

 

 

Well for one, I am not so sure he let it run long enough or sit long enough to hear it.....

 

but let me ask a question now.

How can he shut the fuel off and ride it for a mile or so (very hard as he put it) and it just keeps on running...?? The venture does not run on "gravitational pull" from the fuel line...it must be pumped in from somewhere..

 

There were many times I would not hear my fuel pump "clickity click" when I had my venture. After it sat overnight, I mostly heard it the next morning...or if it sat for a long period of time like 4 or 5 hours...

 

He can pull the left side cover, and remove the two bolts holding the fuel pump to the bracket, then remove the OUT PUT line and place the outlet line hose into a container, then turn the key on and see if it pumps fuel into the container..

 

It has to be pumping for his bike to run for a mile or so or a long period of time..

 

[Dave77459]

First of all, usually I hear the pump click a few times before I start 'er up. Last night (it was much colder than usual, not that it makes a difference) when I was heading home from work I got on, turned the key and didn't hear anything.

 

The bike ran perfectly fine all the way home (and I had ~145 miles on that particular tank). For kicks, about 1 mile away from my house I turned the fuel off, pulled in and parked. I let the bike sit for a minute or so and turned the key ON again to my surprise I didn't hear the clicking. I am presuming that my pump is toast (I will check the pump by jumping it from the battery when I get home to verify pump and not the relay)...

 

My questions are this:

1) Will our bikes run quite well (hard acceleration, high speeds, etc) even if the pump isn't pumping and I only have 1-2 gallons left in the tank?

 

2) What all is necessary to pick up if I go pick up one of those Mr. gasket pumps? Do I just need to get the appropriate fittings so that the hoses will effectively be out of one end? I recall reading that the #42s pump was no longer an option because it was redesigned - what is the difference between the 'new' and 'old' designs and what is it about the 'new' design that makes it not work for us?

 

 

Muchos grassybutt folks. (That's thanks a lot for those of you that don't speak spanglish).

 

Most has been answered. I don't think your fuel pump is toast. Mine was, and the distance before dry was 2 blocks.

 

2) regarding the redesign, the old design had the output nipple screwed in so that you could insert a right angle fitting. The new design has a built-in output nipple, so it may extend far enough to create a problem getting the necessary right angle.

 

Thanks for letting me say nipple in a G-rated way.

 

Dave

[BigBoyinMS]

I also have a Road Star and I've done some research on the fuel pumps. (I think most of this info is correct but a lot of it I have gleaned from searching the web so verify before you take it for fact.)There isn't a lot of info but it seems that a LOT of metric bikes use the same Mitsubishi made pump that we do. In fact, as best I can tell the Roadie and the Royals use the same pump other than the Roadie pump has the outlet with a 90 degree bend. Also from what I can tell, the pumps aren't what goes bad; it's the contact points under the rubber boot on the pump. Just as the old fashioned points in a car distributor pit and stick so do the points on our pumps. And our pumps don't have the advantage of a condenser to buffer the arcing when the points open and close. And they also don't have the advantage of a resistor to drop the current to 6 volts like the auto distributors. I don't think using a condenser would be a problem but adding a resistor to drop the voltage would probably cause an issue with fuel pressure because (from what I understand) the points control the pressure. (1.5 - 2.0 PSI) It seems that as the pressure builds, a spring is put under tension until it finally holds the points open and shuts off the pump.

I came across a KTM cycle forum where the guys have the same pump as far as I can tell and they have tested a lot of different pumps and have come up with a Facet 40171 as a good replacement pump. Here's a link to one of the post on their site.

http://www.ktm950.info/how/fuel_pump/facet_40171/facet_40171_install.html

 

Hope some of this info is helpful.

[Seaking]

When my fuel pump died the other summer while visiting Pennsylvania, the points were burnt out.. prematurely due to a previously clogged fuel filter.. I gather that the previous owners never changed the fuel filter and it caused the pump to work harder causing it's premature death.. Simple enough to replace but expensive.. Luckily for me it was under warranty and the kind shop was able to take one off the show floor bike to get me on my way sooner than having to wait days for one to be shipped out.

 

This winter I'm relocating my fuel filter to the left side for easier access.. the filters themselves are cheap enough, considering.. but its the pain in the assets access that keeps a lot of people from changing their filters on a regular basis.

 

As far as the 'clicking' fuel pump goes, I seldom hear mine click in the morning.. hard of hearing I guess?

[Dave77459]

*snip*

I came across a KTM cycle forum where the guys have the same pump as far as I can tell and they have tested a lot of different pumps and have come up with a Facet 40171 as a good replacement pump. Here's a link to one of the post on their site.

http://www.ktm950.info/how/fuel_pump/facet_40171/facet_40171_install.html

 

Hope some of this info is helpful.

That Facet 40171 looks much like the Mr Gasket 42 S that I used.

 

Here is the photo of the OEM pump and my spare Mr Gasket configured as installed. You can see the "right angle" that I used. The new style precludes that by using a non-removable straight out nipple.

 

Dave

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4146/5043105936_dd0418f210_b.jpg

[RandyR]

I'll also mention that on my fuel cut-off switch (2000 MM RSV), it doesn't (cut off the fuel, that is). So there is some kind of internal leak. In looking at the fiche, I see there is a mod to the cutoff switch in 2003 or 2004 (I don't remember exactly when).

 

I've bought a new fuel switch, just need to find the right moment to install it.

[V7Goose]

Well for one, I am not so sure he let it run long enough or sit long enough to hear it.....

 

but let me ask a question now.

How can he shut the fuel off and ride it for a mile or so (very hard as he put it) and it just keeps on running...?? The venture does not run on "gravitational pull" from the fuel line...it must be pumped in from somewhere..

 

There were many times I would not hear my fuel pump "clickity click" when I had my venture. After it sat overnight, I mostly heard it the next morning...or if it sat for a long period of time like 4 or 5 hours...

 

He can pull the left side cover, and remove the two bolts holding the fuel pump to the bracket, then remove the OUT PUT line and place the outlet line hose into a container, then turn the key on and see if it pumps fuel into the container..

 

It has to be pumping for his bike to run for a mile or so or a long period of time..

Sorry Eck, I think you are wrong here. There are a number of points I'll hit, in no particular order . . .

 

First, this bike runs very will on gravity feed for the fuel. But not usually with a dead fuel pump in the circuit (that means you are mostly right here). Although I have not done a lot of testing on this specific problem, the RSV will run great on gravity feed when a straight line is run from the tank to the carb input. In the stock configuration, if the fuel pump goes completely out, it usually dies. But I think there is a possibility that the pump can stop in some specific positions that might allow fuel to flow through it. This could be enough to generally let the engine run OK, especially if the bike is not being run hard.

 

This engine will run several miles on just the fuel in the float bowls, so the fact that he shut off the gas 1 mile from home and it kept running is no surprise. But a full mile would probably have lowered the gas level in the carbs enough for the fuel pump to have had to come on (click) when he turned the key back on in the garage. A better test would be to just shut the fuel off and ride it until it falters, then shut it off and turn the key back on to listen for the pump.

 

Finally, from various reports I have seen, it seams fairly common for the se fuel pumps to fail slowly, where the work sometimes and sometimes not. In these cases, it can be difficult to actually know when the pump is working.

Goose

[LilBeaver]

Thanks all for your comments.

 

Bigboy - thanks for the info on that pump, looks like it might be a winner if I can't find something else locally

 

Zipcode: Thanks for the picture - That definitely answers my question about what adapters or fittings are on the pump and how to use it.

 

Randy: I had wondered the same thing about the clicking, why did its behavior change now...

 

ECK & Goose: Thanks for the additional comments. I guess I could have expanded a little more on my couple quickie tests.

 

First and foremost, ever since the first thread that I made it to that discussed the fuel pump problems (especially yours Seaking) I have paid close attention to the clicking when I turn my key. What I noticed last night was that there was no clicking when I expected it. By turning the gas off 1 mile, or so, from my house and checking it when I got home (I know what my bike normally does when I do this on occasion) and after I parked in the garage and tried it, it didn't do it. So, the what raised my concern was that the behavior was atypical with respect to my experience with my bike.

Yes, I have only had my bike for just over a year (~22k miles), but I ride all year 'round so I have a lot of on/offs with it. The main purpose for my post was to try to learn what other symptoms are prevalent with a failed (or failing) pump. I have read many posts where folks pumps fail and they are stuck pushing their bikes or playing the on/off game until it kicks back in.

My observation of the lack of clicking was a clue, but I had expected there to be a lack of power or whatnot that went with it.

 

My second question was primarily so I would know what I'm looking for when/if I head up the auto parts store for a pump (or order one online).

 

Thanks again for the comments. I should have some time tomorrow to do some real testing. HOPEFULLY I will find something conclusive.

 

By the way, on my way to work today, it did it's normal clicking thing so I suspect that I might have an intermittent problem with it.

 

Thanks again, ya'll.

[Seaking]

What I can say about my situation last summer when my fuel pump finally died is that with a dead pump, the bike would not run.

 

The engine literally died on the highway. Once everything cooled off, the pump worked just long enough to get it to the nearby Yamaha shop. But that was the end of the pump.

 

Long version short, when I took the bike to the second shop, the tech who was able to diagnose the problem properly, told me that the pump is required to push fuel to the front jugs. Gravity will feed the rear jugs but you need the pump to feed the front ones. The first shop didn't spot the dead pump as it worked when they did the test but the pump died soon after but they didn't re-test the pump and that led to a lot of warranty parts being installed on the bike.. good for me

 

If I recall properly, you pull the front plugs out and if they are dry, and the rear ones are wet, this is an indication of a dead pump (or fuel not making it to the front jugs)..

 

I wonder if you can simply just pull the hose off the downstream side of the pump as you do the test, at least you could tell without having to pull the dog bones from the engine?

[V7Goose]

What I can say about my situation last summer when my fuel pump finally died is that with a dead pump, the bike would not run.

 

The engine literally died on the highway. Once everything cooled off, the pump worked just long enough to get it to the nearby Yamaha shop. But that was the end of the pump.

 

Long version short, when I took the bike to the second shop, the tech who was able to diagnose the problem properly, told me that the pump is required to push fuel to the front jugs. Gravity will feed the rear jugs but you need the pump to feed the front ones. The first shop didn't spot the dead pump as it worked when they did the test but the pump died soon after but they didn't re-test the pump and that led to a lot of warranty parts being installed on the bike.. good for me

 

If I recall properly, you pull the front plugs out and if they are dry, and the rear ones are wet, this is an indication of a dead pump (or fuel not making it to the front jugs)..

 

I wonder if you can simply just pull the hose off the downstream side of the pump as you do the test, at least you could tell without having to pull the dog bones from the engine?

Seaking, I remember your situation well, and both shops involved had real problems in the mistakes they made in trying to solve it. From the beginning, we said the symptoms sounded like fuel starvation, but that first shop insisted they checked that. The result, as you said, was a huge waste of time an money for everyone.

 

The bad information here is the absolutely WRONG idea that it takes more pressure to get fuel to the front carbs than the rear. Any mechanic that says such a stupid thing simply shows that they are just making up stories to try to fool an "dumb customer" instead of actually talking about something they know. The statement that gravity could feed the rear carbs but not the front could not be more wrong.

 

The four carbs are mounted together with a single fuel input and two level fuel manifolds. Any fuel that enters the manifold (just a simple straight pipe) will drain equally into both carbs on that side of the bike. The manifold for the left two carbs is perhaps 1 inch further away from the fuel line than the right side manifold, but even that is not a reasonable cause for claiming that the left two carbs might run out sooner than the right two. But your idiot mechanic didn't even try to claim that; he just made up an asinine story about the front carbs vs. the rear carbs because he thought he could snow you with that.

 

Finally, no plugs will ever be wet unless the problem is lack of spark or oil blow-by. If there is fuel and spark, the plug will be dry because the fire burns the fuel. The ONLY way a plug could ever be wet from anything is if there is no fire in the cylinder.

 

I know you are just repeating what the fools told you, but I just didn't want anyone else to take this as gospel.

Goose

[Seaking]

Point taken, thanks for clarification..

 

I just realized I misspoke as well (was up too late writing the previous barble)

 

The front cylinders were not getting fuel from the pump and the bike was simply not firing up at all.. the rear plugs were wet and the front ones dry. The second shop who fixed the bike in short time sorted it out quickly while the first shop looked at it for 4 days and couldn't find it was a bad pump.

 

It wasn't bad tech info, it was my bad info remembrance.. (old age

 

Cheers M8