Clutch INSTALL HELP

[Seaking]

Hey guys, when installing new clutch parts, the wire ring holding the half friction, half disc and half spring plate, how does this fit in or how is it installed?

 

I took out these half parts when I had done the PCW mod and now reverting the bike back to the original configuration but now I can't remember how this is supposed to fit in?

 

Anyone able to shed some light as to what or how this goes together again?

 

Desperate to get info tonight!

 

Thanks in advance!

[V7Goose]

Thin flat plate (like a tin washer) goes in first, then the half disk with the wave washer inside of it, then a steel disk. Now the wire wraps around the hub and the ends poke down inside a hole. I'm pretty sure that the wires fits into a little groove in the hub, but cannot swear to that.

Goose

[Seaking]

Thanks Goose, yes, there is a hole for the two ends to go into and a slight grove for the wire to fit into.. the wire has to go in there otherwise the two ends won't meet up to go into the hole..

 

I got everything together and bam... a dead clutch lever.. ouch.. I took everything apart and made sure the barnett plate was on properly (has to be matched with some notches etc) and a proper stackup of discs and all.. but dang.. no pressure at the clutch lever.

 

Am I correct to assume that the OEM stackup now requires more brake fluid in the clutch reservoir?

[V7Goose]

Hopefully you did not depress the clutch lever while the clutch was apart - I will assume you did not.

 

Usually the problem you describe is caused by the pressure plate not being properly fitted to the teeth on the clutch hub. When you first position the pressure plate and insert the bolts, but BEFORE they are even finger tight, you need to slightly wiggle the pressure plate back and forth to make sure it fits down INTO the teeth instead of being caught on the end of the hub.

Goose

[Seaking]

Hmmm the first time I pulled the clutch lever in is when I discovered I didn't have the plate on properly and had to unbolt and rotate the plate until it was properly seated.. I looked into the sigh glass and the level is way down to the bottom of the glass..

 

Now you said "Hopefully you did not depress the clutch lever while the clutch was apart"

 

I did not but what happens if you do? Unfortunately, with the plate not properly seated there was a larger gap..

 

Air in the system?

[Sleeperhawk]

Thanks Goose, yes, there is a hole for the two ends to go into and a slight grove for the wire to fit into.. the wire has to go in there otherwise the two ends won't meet up to go into the hole..

 

I got everything together and bam... a dead clutch lever.. ouch.. I took everything apart and made sure the barnett plate was on properly (has to be matched with some notches etc) and a proper stackup of discs and all.. but dang.. no pressure at the clutch lever.

 

Am I correct to assume that the OEM stackup now requires more brake fluid in the clutch reservoir?

 

There were two issues with the Barnett install.

1. There was a little ball bearing that is part of the push rod, center of clutch, if you pulled this out and used lithium grease as recommended via the Yamaha service manual on page 4-51 and 4-52, you may have forgotten to put that back together properly as I did the first time. If I remember right, and it has been since winter of 07/08 that is what caused the clutch lever to act like there was no fluid.

 

2. The Barnett absolutely must be lined up properly and the Barnett instructions suck on this. You must rotate the Barnett on the bolts until lined up properly. Otherwise the clutch handle cannot be pulled in at all.

 

I hit both issues with the Barnett.

Hopefully someone can be more helpful.

[V7Goose]

Well, with a stock pressure plate, trying the clutch with the plate hung up on the end of the hub won't cause a problem, at least if it is only tried once. I do not know about pumping the clutch lever.

 

The following is theory only, as I have never actually done this, but it is probably possible for the piston to be pumped clear out of the clutch slave cylinder just like you can do the brake pistons if you pump them without the pads in place. If you are real low on fluid now, it certainly sounds like that might have happened. I do not know if you can inspect that by just pulling the clutch basket or if you need to remove the slave cylinder, but that may be your next step.

Goose

[Seaking]

Ok.. so I just got back from a test ride on the bike after your helpful and insightful assistance, gents..

 

The reservoir fluid level was VERY low.. down to the bottom of the glass when the bike is on the kick stand and bars to the far left .. I topped it up with DOT4 fluid and put the cover back on.. pulled the lever a couple of times and well, it felt just a little better.

 

I put the bike in neutral and started the bike.. aimed the bike out the door (just in case) and dropped it in first gear with the lever pulled in and wow, when I started to release the lever the clutch kicked in hard and tried to pull the bike away.. Previously on the PCW clutch mod, the friction zone was way out to the release end of the lever travel.. Now it back to the 'almost all pulled in end' of lever travel.. A little go and stop testing and looks like what ever was the problem is gone.. the lever is firm again, doesn't feel like it has air in it.. and a ride up and down the street up to 3rd gear certainly feels great.. the friction zone back to opposite to what it was with the PCW mod.

 

I think I have everything back together properly, the plate is torqued in at 96 in/lbs (8 ft/lbs) which is the only torque I could find anywhere.. which isn't a lot..? Should these bolts be red lock tited in?

 

I'll give it a ride tomorrow and see how it all feels in slow and 'drop the hammer time' mode.. Hopefully this will be the last time I have to play with my clutch and I can leave it well alone from now on..

 

Thanks to all those who were able to assist me with this again, I would still be out there pulling some hairs lol..

 

Cheers

[V7Goose]

I do not know if the Barnet plate uses different bolts with a different torque spec, but 8 lbs is SERIOUSLY over torqued for the stock bolts. The spec is 5.8 lbs.

 

If those are stock bolts, you need to throw them away and start with new ones. Your engine is in significant danger if you have exceeded the torch spec for the bolts. If you got new bolts with the pressure plate, you need to call the manufacturer and get the proper torque value from them. This is serious.

Goose

Edited August 23, 2010 by V7Goose

[Seaking]

Ok now you're scaring me...

 

I got the torque value from here http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=491

 

Luckily I didn't go anywhere with the bike tonight.. the bolts are new from Barnett, not the stock bolts. 8 ft/lbs isn't a whole lot, I use 1/4" drive tool to avoid heavy handedness and when I bolted them up at first, even THAT was more than 8 ft / lbs torque, so I had to loosen them off and start over again with the torque wrench.. (big hands)

 

I cannot find anywhere any proper torque values for the Barnett set up other than at one article.. and a couple of other references where others installed the kit and used the 8 lbs/ft torque value.. ergh..

 

Thanks for the heads up though

[V7Goose]

Like I said, call the manufacturer and get the spec straight from them. If you ever tighten a bolt MORE than the torque spec for that bolt, even one time, it must be thrown away. It does absolutely no good to loosen it and re-torque it to some lower value - the damage to the metal is already done.

 

Clutch bolts, and any other internal engine bolts, are REALLY dangerous if over torqued because of what you can imagine will happen if you have a chunk of metal bouncing around inside the engine and transmission!

 

The Barnett bolts may be much stronger than the stock clutch bolts, where 8 or even 10 lbs will not actually damage the bolt, but it is foolish to assume that. Stock Yamaha clutch bolts break VERY easily if over torqued.

Goose

[Seaking]

Aww balls.. here's what I found after a lot of searching tonight.. (from the Barnett site)

 

Q: How come my Barnett clutch plates did not come with specific installation instructions?

A: It is not possible to include instructions for every motorcycle or ATV made and many clutch plates fit a wide variety of models. We strongly recommend that you refer to the factory service manual for assembly order and torque specs. In most applications, Barnett plates and springs are a direct replacement for the OEM plates and springs and will install in the same manner. In special applications, instructions will be included.

 

So the Venture book says 5.8 ft / lbs and stoopid me did them up at 8 ft/lbs.. based on an article I found on here, for a V-Max..

 

New bolts for bonzo in the morning, if I can find them..

 

Thanks for the heads up Goose, coulda been catastrophic...

Edited August 23, 2010 by Seaking

[V7Goose]

I cannot advise on replacement bolts in this application, other than to go with what the manufacturer of the clutch plate specifies. I am neither a metallurgist nor an engineer with the proper training to properly specify the product and use.

 

But here is what I think I know (and do not know). First, I cannot say why the stock clutch bolts are spec'ed so soft, nor why they use such a minimal torque. But I do assume there is some very valid reason for that design.

 

I know that actual torque specs for a specific bolt take into consideration the strength of the bolt and thread size, and the appropriate torque actually stretches the bolt without damaging it. And in really critical applications the torque value is not even actually used - the proper measurement is the STRETCH of the bolt. So this may be a clue why the stock bolts are so soft with the very low torque spec. Harder bolts will not stretch the expected amount at appropriate torque, which will affect how the bolt actually holds in place.

 

As for thread locker - I would never use it in any internal engine application where it was not specified. I do not have any strong reasons for that - I just suspect it is not wise.

Goose

 

Just to make it clear, for this application I would ONLY use new bolts ordered from Barnett, or, if they say the bolts are stock Yamaha bolts, order them from Yamaha.

 

And I am NOT impressed with Barnett's cop-out BS about no instructions; it may be fine for other bikes, but in this situation, that is just STUPID!!! Their pressure plate and springs are a totally different design and technical principle than the stock design, so to just let their customers guess that it should be done the same as the factory manual says is beyond the pale. Based on this one piece of information alone, I am now certain I will never buy one of their parts.

Edited August 23, 2010 by V7Goose
clarity