Some new thoughts on clutch basket whine

[straycatt]

I put an "I" basket in my scoot which quieted it down really well. Until I dragged (or is it drug?) my trailer 400 miles and then it got progressively louder, to the point where it may be louder than it was before the "I" basket.

 

So, now I'm going to look at this from a different angle.

Has anyone considered some type of sound deadening coating on the clutch cover to maybe lower the amount of transmitted whine?

I'm still researching this, but I do know that what ever coating used would have to take a bit of heat as the side cover gets fairly warm. Maybe some of that pick up bed liner.

I figured that I'd pick up a spare cover to play with from Ebay.

 

Yesterday I was experimenting with sound deadening foam. I taped a large piece to the lower fairing area as there seems to be a lot of sound bouncing from that area with no luck. No matter how much foam I taped or wrapped around the right side of the bike, it stayed just as whiney.

 

Now to the next idea.

I have my old "G" basket and I'm toying with the thought of having the teeth on this basket "machined" slightly.

Maybe a small grove cut in the center of the teeth of the primary driver gear would change things enough to lower the whine.

Or possibly a slight radius to the top of the teeth.

 

Anybody with a metal working background have any thoughts on any of this? I'm going to stop and talk to the local high performance engine builder on Thursday to see what they say.

 

Thoughts?

[cecdoo]

Good luck with the experiment, I would be interested in your results. I put the I basket in 2 yrs ago, but my whine is back and just as annoying, mine really seems heat related, the longer I ride and the hotter the bike gets, the louder it whines. Craig

[BuddyRich]

I think the sound is going to travel thru the shafts and to all parts of the engine so sound insulating material may only make a minimal change.

[Eugene]

Good luck with the experiment, I would be interested in your results. I put the I basket in 2 yrs ago, but my whine is back and just as annoying, mine really seems heat related, the longer I ride and the hotter the bike gets, the louder it whines. Craig

 

Ditto here - never had the basket changed but the hotter it gets, the louder the whine.

[bikenut]

My 06 did the same thing after the "I" basket. Was no sound at all but then it came back. A little better but still came back. I think it also is related to the heating and cooling of the engine. When it does this over and over it is tempering the inner gear over and over and that gear is getting harder and harder, which in turn make the gears sing. When new they are softer and as time goes on they get harder.

Someone will find a way to fix this and then we all can ride our bike in peace and just listen to the pipes. That would be nice.

Best of luck

[donaldj2242]

Cutting a small grove in the center of the teeth of the primary driven gear might work. I believe the gears on in a resonating condition. To change the natural frequencies of an object you remove or add mast. Worth a try yes or no????

[Yammy]

I've been told that Yamaha has solved the whine problem. Newer models have no whine issues or at least that's what my dealer has told me. It may be all smoke and mirrors but, I know neither my Wife's or Mine has any whine or chirp. I'm not sure how far back that supposedly goes?? Maybe we can get our group to sound off, to see if He's right? Anyone have a whine problem on a newer model?

 

I would think yamaha knew the problem and had answers but it was cheaper to let the customers whine along with there bikes.

[CMIKE]

I had a dealer the other day tell me the 2010 models are now Fuel Injected. What worried me I kinda half way believed him...enough to bend down and look at the carbs under the edge of the tanks....yeah right.

 

Trust but verify everything they say.

 

He also told me the 2011 has the new Vmax engine and frame with the stratoliner deluxe fairing on it with some bigger bags and tour pack than the 2010 venture with a 300 rear tire. I will believe it when I see it.

 

Where do they find these guys?

[Kirby]

I have a 2009 and it whines a little as it gets hotter. So, no, I don't think they've fixed the whine. I thought about the sound deadening covers too, but it will have to be something that won't come off and contaminate the oil.

[gibvel]

I think, as much as anything, the noise bounces off of the windshield.

 

I remember Snarley Bill did an experiment, some years ago, where he removed the windshield from his RSTD and said that the sound almost completely disappeared. Now if this is the case with the Venture, I don't know.

 

I do know that, when I first got my 99 that the chirp was ear piercing. It had a very high pitched component to it that was just horrid. When I got my XXL Clearview windshield the sound decreased somewhat but, more importantly, that ear piercing higher frequency decreased dramatically. This is probably due to the rake of the windshield being different than the stock.

 

So, I believe, the windshield is to blame for some, or a great deal, of the reflected sound.

[SilvrT]

I put an "I" basket in my scoot which quieted it down really well. Until I dragged (or is it drug?) my trailer 400 miles and then it got progressively louder, to the point where it may be louder than it was before the "I" basket.

Thoughts?

 

I'll be watching for this in Sept when we go on holidays.... pulling the trailer for the first time.

 

As for the whine coming back .... I think it's slightly louder now than it was when I first put the "I" basket in but still not enough to be bothersome.

 

I will say this tho ... even though I really like this RSMV, I hate the noisyness of the engine and if the whine does get worse, I will be selling it. I am looking at 3 possible replacements already ... a Wing, an HD Ultra, or the new Victory Cross Country with the optional trunk. The first 2 I've ridden .... now to find a dealer who will allow a demo ride on the Victory.

 

Speaking of which, has anyone ridden the new Cross Country from Victory???

[phertwo]

How about crowning the gears. Take a read of this ...

 

http://www.designworldonline.com/articles/5351/11/Reduce-gear-noise-and-misalignment-problems-with-crowning.aspx

 

"Some have reported a 5 to 10 times reduction in noise, accompanied by less vibration, wear and power draw."

 

It may be possible to do this, but I have no idea what kind of effect if would have on the gear wear and gear life. The speed at which these gears move and the amount of power being transmitted might just cut up the transmission gear, throwing metal particles into the engine and transmission. No idea.

 

It may be possible to machine or grind a slight crown into your clutch basket gear, but I don't know what it would do to the steel as its likely case hardened. You might need to get it hardened again. Bah, see what happens when you get people thinking!!

[TARHEEL RIDER]

Have you ever heard the engine noise on a harley? It reminds me of two nuts in a coffe can. Every bike has some sort of mechanical noise. There is even some nosie on the wing, from the shaft.

 

Pick your poison and enjoy it.

[Condor]

How about crowning the gears. Take a read of this ...

 

http://www.designworldonline.com/articles/5351/11/Reduce-gear-noise-and-misalignment-problems-with-crowning.aspx

 

"Some have reported a 5 to 10 times reduction in noise, accompanied by less vibration, wear and power draw."

 

 

That is really interesting. Wonder if it could be done to the basket gear?? Can you emagine what kind of market someone would have if they could develope a successful process??

[fxitdude]

The wine is still there not a much as my 2007 but it is still there and gets louder with heat.

 

No fuel injection and no 300 tire either.

[ctraylor]

I believe if the gears could be changed to helical gears the whine would be gone.

[phertwo]

Crowning sounds like a great idea, but honestly the speed and power being transmitted through these gears is really high. Think about how much force and impact is seen at these gear faces, part of the reason why Yamaha chose spur gears for their strength. I would likely assume that if you reduced the impact/contact point, like on a crowned gear face, that would be damaging. You would be trying to transmit the force across a smaller area of the gear at the contact point instead of the entire gear. Also mentioned in the article, this is used for light duty, small applications. I'd love to try it, if I have a beater bike. But I ain't going to do it on mine.

 

I think the helical cut gears would be the only fix, but there are two problems that I foresee. 1. The amount of labour involved with tearing apart the transmission, separating the gear stack and replacing the spur gear. Probably why Yamaha hasn't made this a solution, given the free warranty. It would cost them a lot to pay for a dealer to take apart the entire bike. 2. Helical cut gears introduce an axial shaft force as well as a radial force. This means that the clutch basket would be forced into the clutch housing or into the shell. Given that the bike wasn't designed to handle these forces, I would seriously question the longevity of the transmission if I did this. Again, I would love to do this if I had a beater bike. Any one want to give me one to experiment on?? Please?

[Michael_Bishop]

I don't know if I would cut a small grove in the center of the teeth of the primary driven gear. I work in heat treat at Allison for 10 years. I have not seen the gears or be inside my engine. But by work in heat treat and learning about the carbrize case death for ware on gears. At Allison small gears has 20 to 25 thousand and large gears a 60 to 80 thousand case death.

[phertwo]

I was looking through the service manual and looky what I found here.

 

http://i924.photobucket.com/albums/ad85/phertwo/heligears.jpg

 

 

What.. whats that Yamaha? Nooo.. must be a mistake.

 

[SilvrT]

Have you ever heard the engine noise on a harley? It reminds me of two nuts in a coffe can.

 

what year of Harley are you hearing... 1948?

 

Today's Harley engines are much quieter than our RSV engines IMHO. If only my engine was as quiet as my son's 2003 1200cc Sportster.... Even my 2 1st gen's engines were quieter than this '06 yet the Sporty engine is still quieter than they were. And I'm talking when it's not moving ... just sitting there running... even revving it up ... the HD engine is very tight and quiet in comparison.

[bikenut]

Remember also if you have your intercom on you will here the whine much more then with out it on. I run all the time with mine on but if I turn it way down the whine is much better. That mic sure can pick that noise up very easy.

Just my two cent again.

I like a lot of the ideas floating around here.

Best of luck:bang head:

[straycatt]

OK, I talked to the engine builder today and while he said he's not equiped to do what I want he thinks it may be worth a try (cutting a groove in the teeth) and sent me to a transmission builder that I'll go see the first of the week.

 

After talking to this guy and doing some research I have more questions and idea's.

 

Has anyone replaced the "crank" gear when they replaced the clutch basket? As near as I can tell just like a chain and sprokets, straight cut gears should be replaced as a matched set. Maybe part of the problem is that the crank gear is wearing the replacement basket in an odd way?

 

Another thought is oil volume. The more oil that you can get on the gears the better sound dampening from the oil (regardless of which oil). I'm wondering what direction the oil takes inside the motor and if it's possible to reroute some of this oil directly onto the drive gears?

 

The sound deadening coating (like truck bed liner) I was thinking of trying would be on the OUTSIDE of the side covers. I doubt if there is clearence on the inside of the cover for the coating with the clutch going around. It might not look that good, but if it helped with the whine I could live with it.

 

It may also help change the resonance factor of the primary gear to drill some evenly spaced holes in it. And speaking of drilling holes, I read on a hot VW site that some of these guys drill small holes in the gear teeth to quiet them down a little. The idea being that part of what makes the whine is the air and oil escaping at high velocity as the gear teeth come together. The holes give that mix somewhere to go.

 

I'm thinking that depending on what the tranny guy says, I'm leaning towards the groove if possible. It will likely not be machined but will have to be ground (grinded?) as the hardened gear won't allow machining.

 

I know this is probably a waste of time, but if this is fixable, I want it fixed.

Any more thoughts?

[straycatt]

Oh, and I just had another thought.

Most of the engineers seem to agree that the smoother the face of the gears, the less likely they are to make noise.

 

This at first seemed like an easy solution. Polish the teeth faces and problem solved. But then I got to looking at my original basket with 30K miles on it, and under a magnifying glass you can see that that wear pattern across the teeth faces make it look like the teeth have already been polished.

So if this were true the gear sets would get quieter as they age not louder.

Or am I off base with this??

[YamaDuck]

One thing that I don't understand about the "whine" problem is, a lot of the complaints are that the engine whine so people change baskets and after a while the "whine" comes back. That indicates to me that the sound is caused by the wearing of the basket. When first installed the tolerances are tighter and the "whine" is reduced or gone. As the basket wears several thousand miles the sound comes back. You know that the basket has worn and the tolerance has lessened so it looks like to me if you crown, shave or do anything that increases the spacing between the basket and whatever gears it matches up to you should increase the "whine" not decrease it. So why do some bike have a whine and others do not? Maybe it is the gear that fits the basket and not the basket. If there is something wrong with that gear you could put 20 new baskets in and after a while then all 20 baskets would start "whining". Just my worth. Shoot I don't even know what the gears are called that connect to the basket but that's my ideas behind it.

[SilvrT]

Why is it that some whine and some don't and the one's that do, we change the basket on and some the whine goes away or diminishes and others it doesn't ..... I believe it's because the basket gears and the primary gears are not a mated set and it's just by LUCK that some mate while others don't. Having said that, it's just like playing the lottery ... you might hit the jackpot but most likely you'll not win or get a small payoff (aka some whine reduction).