New E3 Tires, New Problem

[flb_78]

Sounds like you're hearing the brake pads rub on the disc, which is normal.

 

Ride it till the noise comes back and LIGHTLY apply the rear brake.

 

 

[juggler]

Well it sounds like the possible 'rubbing' issue has been put to bed. A very easy way to confirm this would be to use chalk dust and chalk up the tire on both sides and take it for a short ride. Then inspect the tire to see if any of the chalk was rubbed off.

 

Did you grease the axle shaft itself? I think the assembly calls for lithium grease on the axle. It's an easy thing to forget when you start putting everything back together. I could not see anything in the pictures that looked like there was grease where the axle goes.

 

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_9EMyKcng_yA/TDiaq32wt0I/AAAAAAAADuU/Z3RI035dqLk/s640/IMG00143.jpg

 

If it isn't the tire and not the assembly then check to make sure the rear brake disc is not warped.

[ablumny]

Well it sounds like the possible 'rubbing' issue has been put to bed. A very easy way to confirm this would be to use chalk dust and chalk up the tire on both sides and take it for a short ride. Then inspect the tire to see if any of the chalk was rubbed off.

 

Did you grease the axle shaft itself? I think the assembly calls for lithium grease on the axle. It's an easy thing to forget when you start putting everything back together. I could not see anything in the pictures that looked like there was grease where the axle goes.

 

If it isn't the tire and not the assembly then check to make sure the rear brake disc is not warped.

 

Yep, good idea. Mine was lipstick (surprised no one made fun of me) but chalk makes more sense but I think as you point out thats not the issue. I dug pretty far into a new tube of Moly60 during the 3times Ive taken this thing apart now. That axle (and every other rotating part that should be) are well greased.

 

Brakes are my next suspicion; going out for another test ride now...

 

thx

andrew

[ablumny]

on a better note: my VentureRider hat arrived yesterday and it's great !

[jlh3rd]

that shiny strip is on my rear and front e3 also.....it's more visible on the rear....

[ablumny]

Two hours out:

 

For 1 hour and 50 mins, Im checking often, highway, twisties, stopped for a few mins, got aggressive on it..... no noise.

 

I come into my neighborhood, noise returns. I ride around neighborhood for 5 mins, noise goes away.

 

- Im now running 40# in the rear tire

- When the noise re appeared:

- I hit the rear brake, no change

- I put it in neutral, killed the engine, gliding, no change

 

- We know its not the tire rubbing

- I know know its not the brake or the rotor

- The tire is not the problem (not standard road noise and not out of round or mis mounted)

- I know its not tire pressure, ran 40# and 47#, no change.

- I now see the problem is inconsistent.

 

Perhaps this is coincidentally something in the drive train?

Maybe the hub isnt seated right as suggested by the possibility that the ring is not seated.

 

Not sure what my next move is.

[V7Goose]

Still thinking on the original and main issue here of noise, but I have not come up with much. The most significant symptoms for diagnosis would seem to be the description of the sound and the fact that it gets louder with the clutch in.

 

A pulsating sound would fit either the brakes or some issue with the clutch hub, as both turn at the same speed and slow enough to hear variances like that. If it is the brake, then it should be reproduceable on the stand, and it should produce a pulsing sensation in the peddle. The odd part is when you say it doesn't start for 15 minutes - that has to be heat related, and for the brakes, thiat could only come from dragging disks or heavy use. The best test I can think of is to wait until you hear the noise and then LIGHTLY touch the brake - not really enough to slow down, just to put some pressure on the pads. Make sure to test it both with the clutch in and with the clutch still engaged and the throttle still on so you do not slow down from the brake.

 

But for it to get LOUDER with the clutch pulled in really seems to point to something in the drive line. Since you did not take off the final drive, and assuming the noise really was not there before you started, then it almost certainly is nothing in the transmission, drive shaft, or final gears. This just leaves the clutch hub. We have already suggested that the snap ring might not be seated correctly and therefore the hub might not be fully seated in the clutch bushings. Besides that, I'd pull the hub off again and position it differently. The tech bulletin says to check the fit in each possible position, and then to choose the one where it slides in the easiest.

 

Another thought about the clutch hub - did you carefully examine the top beveled end of each drive pin fore wear marks on the bevel as described in the tech bulletin? It is possible that one or more clutch bushings are not fully seated and are causing rubbing and wear on the top of the pin. Maybe in the original position this wear spot was already worn enough to mask the problem, but in a new position it is really grating on a different pin.

Goose

[V7Goose]

Perhaps this is coincidentally something in the drive train?

Maybe the hub isnt seated right as suggested by the possibility that the ring is not seated.

 

Not sure what my next move is.

Basd on your last post, it sounds like you have done a good job of conclusively ruling out the brakes. Seems pretty certain to me now that the issue must be either the hub not completely seated or one or more of the clutch bushings not fully seated. Either problem should be easy to find and fix.

Goose

[ablumny]

Basd on your last post, it sounds like you have done a good job of conclusively ruling out the brakes. Seems pretty certain to me now that the issue must be either the hub not completely seated or one or more of the clutch bushings not fully seated. Either problem should be easy to find and fix.

Goose

 

Yes, I agree with your last posts and will pull the wheel one more time, taking a very good look at the hub pins, bushings they sit in and that snap ring.

 

Todays findings mess with the whole thing though. 1hour 50 mins, no noise, then noise, then no noise...

 

OK, standby for next report!

 

Mike (eusa1) I'll call you today....

[V7Goose]

Yes, I agree with your last posts and will pull the wheel one more time, taking a very good look at the hub pins, bushings they sit in and that snap ring.

 

Todays findings mess with the whole thing though. 1hour 50 mins, no noise, then noise, then no noise...

Actually, that really fits with noise from the drive pins. Usually you don't hear it unless just pushing the bike around in the driveway, particularly backwards. But that is with dirty rusty pins, so I'm not surprised yours is something else. I'm just trying to say that intermittent noise is typical with this part. Wanna give ya some hope, ya know?

Goose

[ablumny]

Wanna give ya some hope, ya know?

Goose

 

Thats all I have left.... This simple tire change has been h#@!, but again you and the forum members have been awesome

 

Taking apart wheel now..

[short-haul]

Quoit "Two hours out:

 

For 1 hour and 50 mins, Im checking often, highway, twisties, stopped for a few mins, got aggressive on it..... no noise.

 

I come into my neighborhood, noise returns. I ride around neighborhood for 5 mins, noise goes away."

 

 

By chance is it normal road noise from the different type of pavement tare stripes will make a funny noise, so will different types of asphalt and concrete and hot weather will magnify this and I think it has been hot up there lately

[ablumny]

By chance is it normal road noise from the different type of pavement tare stripes will make a funny noise, so will different types of asphalt and concrete and hot weather will magnify this and I think it has been hot up there lately

 

Good thought but nope. I thought of that a while ago.

[Guest tx2sturgis]

It all comes down to the "Gremlin Bell". If you dont have one on the bike you will probably NEVER get this resolved. Only thing is, according to the legend, for the bell to work properly and at full power, it must be received as a gift. You cant just go out and buy one for yourself, and expect it to work!

 

I bet SOMEONE around here has a spare....

 

If not....check your local dealer...or online right here:

 

http://www.gremlinbells.com/

 

 

[ablumny]

FOLKS,

 

I have taken the whole thing apart again and taken pictures from the point I pulled the wheel from the hub to the point I pulled the hub/pins out of the wheel.

 

The ring looked well seated, the rear "rubber band" gasket was in place with no damage. Each pin does have a "dent" in the end, not sure if thats the way they make them or some other sign but they all have it.

 

Mike (eusa1) I need to run out for a bit. I will call you when I return.

 

http://picasaweb.google.com/ablumny/VENTUREREARWHEELPICS?feat=directlink

 

 

ALSO: I hope I dont have RedRiders problem:

While removing my rear wheel to have a new tire put on, I decided to lube the drive shaft end that goes into the pumpkin. I have lubed the shaft end that went into the U-joint, but was never able to get the shaft out of the pumpkin end.

 

The oil seal was stuck. I slide a mechanics pick around the oil seal and it came right out.

 

However, I noticed the pinion was really loose. I could move it around - axially - by an 1/8 inch or so. Not good. Showed it to the mechanic at the local dealer and he agreed the nose bearing is likely shot.

 

I typically replace the rear drive fluid every time I change the oil. The last several changes I noticed a good sized ball of shavings on the magnetic plug. Now I know where these shavings are coming from.

 

Took the rear drive apart and the pinion nose bearing is shot. Unfortunately, the outer race is worn down so far there is not a shoulder to press against to remove it. Heated the race hosing with a butane torch and it tried to move it, but no go. The inner race on the pinion nose looks frosted (micro tearing of the metal, soon leading to full spalling).

 

RR

Edited July 11, 2010 by ablumny

[V7Goose]

FOLKS,

 

I have taken the whole thing apart again and taken pictures from the point I pulled the wheel from the hub to the point I pulled the hub/pins out of the wheel.

 

The ring looked well seated, the rear "rubber band" gasket was in place with no damage. Each pin does have a "dent" in the end, not sure if thats the way they make them or some other sign but they all have it.

I have never noticed that "dent" or mashed side on the ends of the drive pins before, but I have never had the need to look that close either. I doubt it has any connection to your problem.

 

You did not include any pictures of the part of the drive pins that you need to examine. Right where they come out of the hub they are bigger around than the rest of the length, and there is a short taper where they step down in size. Look at the tech bulletin and they show this clearly and describe what to look for. In short, if the clutch bushings are not completely seated in the wheel, then the steel tube that surrounds the drive pin will impact this tapered portion, where it should not touch. That is what I suspect may be causing your noise.

Goose

[Midrsv]

Each pin does have a "dent" in the end, not sure if thats the way they make them or some other sign but they all have it.

 

When I had mine apart last week I noticed the "dent" in the ends also. Probably something to do with the manufacturing process.

 

Dennis

[Seaking]

When I had mine apart last week I noticed the "dent" in the ends also. Probably something to do with the manufacturing process.

 

Dennis

 

the 'dent' is indeed a heat extrusion cut process thingy.. seen those on some aircraft parts and that's how it was explained to me a while ago..

 

Goose showed me how to grease those up, and seems like it's on all bikes, being part of the manufacturing process.

[ablumny]

I spoke with Mike (eusa1) who walked me through a reasonable explanation of why I have this problem and how to fix for which I did. It involves inspecting and cleaning with emery cloth (clean all grease away first), the inner hub "hole" and the outer surface of the part the hub slides on (the part with the snap ring). Theres more too it but thats the basics. Pictures start in the middle of this album:

http://picasaweb.google.com/ablumny/VENTUREREARWHEELPICS?feat=directlink

 

However the problem is more pronounced now. (Thank you Mike, it was a reasonable plan and I appreciate your time).

 

So now I am completely convinced its drive shaft or tranny related and it must just be a coincidence that its happening after a tire change. Here's why I suspect this:

 

- I can absolutley isolate this noise on a quiet road, pull the clutch, coast, noise very loud. Let the clutch out a little bit, noise goes away, pull clutch in again, noise is loud. Clutch out, slow speed, no noise.

 

- At slow speed, put it in 4th or fifth, clutch out and rock the throttle, noise comes and goes with the rocking.

 

Ive called a mechanic and will bring it to him first, then the dealer if he cant figure it out.

 

Thank you ALL again, everything stated and offered was reasonable and very helpful.

 

Standby, Ill post the results.

Andrew

Edited July 11, 2010 by ablumny

[flb_78]

If the noise changes with engine RPM's with the clutch pulled in while you're rolling then it's in the engine, not the transmission or driveshaft. You probably have "THE WHINE" that's so prevalent among the Royal Star crowd.

[ablumny]

If the noise changes with engine RPM's with the clutch pulled in while you're rolling then it's in the engine, not the transmission or driveshaft. You probably have "THE WHINE" that's so prevalent among the Royal Star crowd.

 

Nope (but thx). The noise does not change at all with engine RPM. It only changes depending on how fast I am rolling. ....... and I have that whine as well.

[flb_78]

- At slow speed, put it in 4th or fifth, clutch out and rock the throttle, noise comes and goes with the rocking.

 

I read this wrong. My bad.

 

Have you changed the oil in the final drive itself yet?

[Seaking]

Nope (but thx). The noise does not change at all with engine RPM. It only changes depending on how fast I am rolling. ....... and I have that whine as well.

 

While it's hard for anyone to appreciate exactly what the noise you are hearing sounds like, I might suggest another 'weird little test' of sorts to help isolate what it might not be, or end up being.

 

I alluded earlier that the treads on an E3 tire can cause a hum or buzz depending on pressure and road conditions.

 

Take the bike out on a pavement road (not concrete) and while riding in a straight line, lean the bike over to a side a bit and listen for a strange noise, see if it sounds similar to what you're worrying about.

 

Typically, a road has a camber on it, a roundness from centre to sides, and most times within the tire tracks from heavy vehicle traffic. If your tire runs along a camber or ridge like that, even ever so slightly, you may hear an odd noise.

 

Both sets of E3's I've had on this bike have done that.. took me a while to figure out what the problem was, it's just the tread noise. It's not loud but man you can hear it. And just like the gear whining, you'll soon not notice it once you isolate the noise and appreciate it for what it is.. just a noise.. (assuming that this is where the noise comes from).. My buddy's RSV with E3 tires does the same thing..

 

best of luck.

[ablumny]

Appreciate the ideas on final drive gear oil and road testing the tires.

 

RE; final drive oil, I checked the level, its fine but I didn't change it. 11K miles, it should be changed?

 

Ive tested the tires plenty on Saturday when I thought that was the prob. Again this noise can be isolated by working the clutch.

 

thx for the ideas.

andrew

[dmoff1698]

I know the best minds are working on this but,,,

what kind of strange noises would you hear if the tire were mounted backward on the rim? Shurely with the tread contacting the pavement in reverse there could be unexpected sounds.

 

Sometimes the most obvious is the first overlooked. KISS!!