New E3 Tires, New Problem

[ablumny]

With help from many members here and the great documentation on the site, I put on a new set of Dunlop E3's and regreased all the necessary spots although I did not take apart the drive shaft. The hub pins were badly rusted but I didnt see any other issues.

 

So I take it out for a ride this morning to break in the tires and I have a new problem.

 

A new noise coming from the rear end. Its a pulsating sound that changes with speed. If I pull the clutch at any speed the noise get far louder. I dont see any marks on the tires so I assume somethign is wrong with the drive train back there.

 

Other then this issue, there are no problems with braking, engine, power handling.

 

Any advice is appreciated. I'll be tearing it down again this morning.

[Sleeperhawk]

Did you put the washer on the correct side of the brake bracket?

 

Did you replace the rear brake pads by chance and/or check the rear brake fluid?

[ablumny]

Did you put the washer on the correct side of the brake bracket?

 

Did you replace the rear brake pads by chance and/or check the rear brake fluid?

 

Yep, washer in the right spot. I was very aware of where things were when I took them apart plus I pulled down the rear wheel removal guide here that was clear as to where things went back.

 

Regarding the rear brakes, Although I need new pads, I didnt have them yet. So I put the caliper with old pads back on as is.

 

This noise seems to be on the opposite site. (that can be deceiving though)

[V7Goose]

If you did not take the final drive unit off, you are lucky, since that removes lots of potential mechanical things that you could worry about while looking for the problem!

 

For just removing the wheel and changing the tire, there are a limited number of things to check - correct assembly, proper tire bead seating, and damage to the brake disc.

 

First, make sure you put the washer BETWEEN the swing arm and the brake caliper bracket - that is easy to see without dismantling anything. If that is correct, do this test before removing the wheel again: unbolt the rear brake caliper and take it off the disc - just use a short wire to hang it from the crash bar. Now with the rear wheel off the ground start the bike and put it in gear. If it is going to make noise, it should be pretty easy to spot where it is coming from when you can move around the rear of the bike while it is turning.

 

If there is no noise that way, put the caliper back on and try the test again.

 

With the wheel still on the bike, check for runnout to look for a defective tire. You do not need anything special for this if you do not have a dial gauge - just put something like a brick or piece of wood very close to one side of the tire and rotate it by hand, watching the space between the brick and the tire. Do this on both sices of the tire and then at the center of the tread.

 

Here are my thoughts on the most likely things to check: First, did you carefully inspect the little ridges on the tire around the edge of the rim to be certain the tire fully beaded up? That ridge should be EXACTLY the same distance form the edge of the rim all the way around. I have more problems getting the E3 properly seated than any other brand.

 

If none of that shows any problem, think about assembly issues. Did you get the snap ring on the clutch hub properly seated in the groove? Is the bushing on the right side of the wheel inserted the correct way? I think the step side needs to be in toward the bearing. Did you properly torque the axle nut BEFORE tightening the pinch bolt? Let us know what your inspections show and maybe we can help further.

Goose

[Freebird]

If it sounds like a tire just slightly rubbing something, you probably have the bushing backwards. There is a bushing on the right side that presses into the hub. I say "presses" but it's not a tight fit. You can remove it and put it back with your fingers. It is turned down on one side and flat on the other. If it is in backwards, it will allow the wheel to run to the right just barely enough that the tire will lightly rub. Not even enough to really mark the tire but will make a noise.

[Condor]

Whew!!..... As an ex Avon user I get the 'yips' every time I see a thread titled like this. Glad to hear it's a mechanical problem, and nothing to do with the E3's.....

[ablumny]

Well I am at a loss and beyond frustrated. I took the side bags off, put it on the jack, no noises. Nothing apparently wrong either and the washer was between the brake caliper and the swing arm. The E3 has a pretty big ridge on the sides. From the ridge to the rim it looks like something is rubbing but I cant find anything close. To me it look like the tire is too close to the drive shaft though but it's not touching.

 

I get it off the jack and take it out, no noise...UNTIL about 15 minutes in when the noise returns. Maybe heat related?

 

I get it back home, on the jack, no noise. So I think a load has to be on it.

 

Freebird: regarding collars, I followed the advice I found on the "other" site. If posting these here is a no-no, sorry. What you say makes total sense based on my problem, but the collar on the hub/pin side has the smaller tapered end facing out. Wrong?

The other collar has the taper facing in.

 

Goose: I followed all your advice. THe tire is moutned properly, I dont see the thing wobbling at any point on the tire or rim. I didnt hear the noise on the jack with or without the caliper on. I will say though that when I loosened the one bolt that holds teh caliper bracket to the swingarm, it moved in a bit as if it was torqued over a bit. That didnt fix my prob though. Also: yep, torqued the axle nut first. Snap ring? I thought I did !!

http://venturers.org/Tech_Library/attachments/RearWheel_2.jpg

http://venturers.org/Tech_Library/attachments/RearWheel_3.jpg

 

how fast can someone get to Long Island

Edited July 10, 2010 by ablumny

[Seaking]

 

how fast can someone get to Long Island

 

Lets see, there's a flight leaving this evening from Halifax, only first class tickets available though... Hmmm

 

I'm equally curious to discover what the cause of the issue is.. interesting.

[ablumny]

Wheel off, I cant see any problem other then a shiny stripe on BOTH side of the tire towards the ridge. However I dont see any spots on the swing arm, under the fender, anywhere where the tire may be rubbing. The side walls were somewhat shiny, perhaps this strip is just that original shininess...but I have less then 30 miles on these.

 

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_9EMyKcng_yA/TDiaqWcMYhI/AAAAAAAADuM/C5peq-Oossc/s640/IMG00145.jpg

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_9EMyKcng_yA/TDiaquW_VFI/AAAAAAAADuQ/pR6cZm3gbOg/s640/IMG00144.jpg

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_9EMyKcng_yA/TDiaq32wt0I/AAAAAAAADuU/Z3RI035dqLk/s640/IMG00143.jpg

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_9EMyKcng_yA/TDiarRkK2PI/AAAAAAAADuY/JnxFamYYwPU/s640/IMG00142.jpg

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_9EMyKcng_yA/TDiarsrsxgI/AAAAAAAADuc/1hZ5e94LKUA/s640/IMG00141.jpg

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_9EMyKcng_yA/TDiatBb4rsI/AAAAAAAADus/2z-1tp5Rzok/s640/IMG00137.jpg

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_9EMyKcng_yA/TDiatS5s_OI/AAAAAAAADuw/Fl1bC4X2wHE/s640/IMG00136.jpg

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_9EMyKcng_yA/TDiat9j1CHI/AAAAAAAADu0/5nxA2eHOlFI/s640/IMG00135.jpg

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_9EMyKcng_yA/TDiauYd9r1I/AAAAAAAADu8/aibRhWg-e9Y/s640/IMG00133.jpg

[Guest tx2sturgis]

You have something rubbing the tire:

 

 

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_9EMyKcng_yA/TDiarsrsxgI/AAAAAAAADuc/1hZ5e94LKUA/s640/IMG00141.jpg

 

 

 

To verify this, does it sound high pitched or low pitched? Not the pulsating rate, but the sound itself. High pitched might indicate a metal-to-metal rub, and low pitched indicates rubber-to-metal or rubber-to-plastic maybe.

 

But that pic indicates the tire is rubbing on SOMETHING. Look carefully for it.

 

 

 

[ablumny]

You have something rubbing the tire:

 

To verify this, does it sound high pitched or low pitched? Not the pulsating rate, but the sound itself. High pitched might indicate a metal-to-metal rub, and low pitched indicates rubber-to-metal or rubber-to-plastic maybe.

 

But that pic indicates the tire is rubbing on SOMETHING. Look carefully for it.

 

I have to agree and the sound is deep, not a metal on metal sound. THe tire has these marks on both side though and I dont see where anythign is hitting and why would it in the first place? Is this the right size tire? I snapped a picture of the size.

[Guest tx2sturgis]

I have to agree and the sound is deep, not a metal on metal sound. THe tire has these marks on both side though and I dont see where anythign is hitting and why would it in the first place? Is this the right size tire? I snapped a picture of the size.

 

The tire is the right size. Check your air pressure in your shock. Does the sound come and go as you hit low and high places in the road? Does it come and go as the suspension system works? Or is it constant no matter what?

 

Lastly...I have to ask. Are you average weight for this bike? Meaning under 250 or so? Or are you a rider we will call large? If so, it COULD be the shock is not aired up enough and the tire is contacting hard parts under the fender, but this should be obvious as the suspension worked up and down.

[Seaking]

Though some of the images 'appear' to show rubbing on the tire itself, I don't believe this is what the problem is just by visual inspection of some of the images. Though there is a shiny strip going along the side radius of the type, it is also inside the widest part of the tire sidewall and tread bead and also, if you look carefully, the radial lines of tire forming (mold lines going from hub to tread) are crisp and fine, not worn out either. I would be hard pressed to think that is an actual wear mark from riding.

 

Are the torque values and installation procedures correct? Axle bolt and pinch bolt sequence correct? If done in correctly, it may impart a twist to the set up and may perhaps cause some irregularities. I had a similar problem with my VStar a while back..

 

best of luck..

[Guest tx2sturgis]

Though some of the images 'appear' to show rubbing on the tire itself, I don't believe this is what the problem is just by visual inspection of some of the images. Though there is a shiny strip going along the side radius of the type, it is also inside the widest part of the tire sidewall and tread bead and also, if you look carefully, the radial lines of tire forming (mold lines going from hub to tread) are crisp and fine, not worn out either. I would be hard pressed to think that is an actual wear mark from riding.

 

Are the torque values and installation procedures correct? Axle bolt and pinch bolt sequence correct? If done in correctly, it may impart a twist to the set up and may perhaps cause some irregularities. I had a similar problem with my VStar a while back..

 

best of luck..

 

I dont know of ANY way the tire can get a shiny strip on it like that unless its rubbing on something. I stand by my opinions here. I have seen this before. Its more of a 'polishing' effect, not an abrasive rubbing. And he did say its a low-frequency noise, which indicates rubber-to-something contact.

 

But good advise nonetheless, check all fasteners, to make SURE its not somehow out of alignment.

[ablumny]

The "clean" strip on both side just under the ridge is a real head scratcher! I can decide if thats the prob or not. On one hand the noise is a low non metallic sound and it is clearly affected by speed, changing in frequency as the tire rotates faster or slower.

 

On the otherhand, I agree that the structure of the tire would make it hard to get to rub it at that point and its exactly in the same spot on both sides. I went under the bike with a light and cant find any rub marks.

 

Additional data:

- I can not duplicate this noise when its on a jack leading me to beleive a load (like me!) is affecting the situation. Im in the large category , 280#. Rear shock has 30# of air in it. THe tire has 40#. This is the same set up Ive had forever with the Bridgestones on. (and I wasnt any lighter!)

 

- This problem doesnt start for 15-20 minutes after I start riding from a cold start leading me to then believe heat is involved....like the tire expands (back to the rubbing).

 

- Although I haven't heard back from my responses, I believe the collars on both sides to be properly oriented, I torqued the axle bolt before teh pinch bolt. I believe the install was right but Im not the only one to put this tire on thier 2nd gen venture so then I question the install...but its not so complicated.

 

MAYBE I'll get one of my wifes lipsticks and place a few marks across the tire, take it for a ride and see if the marks get wiped away when it starts making the noise.??

 

 

Well, Im in your hands for now! Any additional help or insight is welcome.

 

andrew

[RedRider]

Andrew,

 

I am on my way to the dealer (or will be once I finish this post) to get a new set of E3's mounted to my RSV. This is my second set of these and I didn't have any trouble with the first.

 

Assuming my pumpkin isn't trashed (topic for another thread), I will have it back together this afternoon. I am also in the 'large' catagory (270#) so we will see what happens.

 

Will let you know.

 

RR

[GeorgeS]

Ok, as above, I'm thinking Air pressure in the Rear Shock. Also, possibility that the Shock Linkage's need to be greesed.

--- How many miles is on this bike? Have you ever greesed the lower linkage bolts ?? you have to pull out the bolts to greese them-- If over 50K on this bike, I highly reccomend removeing the lower Linkage bolts, and Cleaning and Greasing them, and consider installing ZERK, fittings, so next time you can do the job with a greese gun!!

 

--- Also, at this point I would be considering removeing the rear drive unit, and pulling the Drive Shaft, to " Inspect " the Splines on both ends of the Drive Shaft, and Re-Greasing the Splines. This has to be done by hand.

 

And of course, change the SAE-90 Rear Drive Oil.

 

With Wheel removed, and bike on jack, does an inspection of the frame, or fender, or any of the Saddle Bag, parts show any sign of the tire wearing ?? Any Shinny spots on anything ???

 

Look for Loose parts!!

 

 

One more item to check: You have Rear Caliper removed. Inspect the " INNER PAD "

Is the inner pad worn more then the outer pad?? Is the Inner pad worn at an Angle ???

I would also carefully inspect the Caliper Mounting points for any sign of a problem

[Guest tx2sturgis]

- I can not duplicate this noise when its on a jack leading me to beleive a load (like me!) is affecting the situation. Im in the large category , 280#. Rear shock has 30# of air in it. THe tire has 40#. This is the same set up Ive had forever with the Bridgestones on. (and I wasnt any lighter!)

 

- This problem doesnt start for 15-20 minutes after I start riding from a cold start leading me to then believe heat is involved....like the tire expands (back to the rubbing).

 

 

Well, Im in your hands for now! Any additional help or insight is welcome.

 

andrew

 

Andrew: For your weight, put 46 pounds of air in the tire, measured when COLD. If you are measuring 40 PSI when its hot, its not enough air, and the tire is getting too hot, and maybe soft. Use a DEPENDABLE, PROVEN gauge. Digital is best, but even then, check it against a KNOWN ACCURATE GAUGE. If your gauge is 10% off, AND your measuring the tire when its hot, you COULD have less than 35 pounds when its cold. Not a good thing.

 

Put 35 pounds of air in the shock as a test...use an accurate suspension type air pump...NOT the air hose from a compressor....while youre under there checking things, make SURE the lower shock mount is NOT oily. Dirty is normal, OILY is not.

 

Take it for a ride after you do these things, pay attention to whether it rubs constantly or only on compression, and get back to us.

Edited July 10, 2010 by tx2sturgis

[ablumny]

Bikes got 11K miles on , never made a squeak until I put this tire on. As such I wouldn't think I'd now need to take apart the drive shaft or look at greasing the linkage.

 

This noise is consistent with a rotating object and has nothing to do with the vertical movement of the bike. As noted, nothing inside the fender, on the swing arm or anywhere near where the tire would be has a clean spot visible.

 

6+ hours on this today, zero progress, zero idea on what the problem is. hot humid and greasy. Im wasted.

 

thx everyone.

[ablumny]

Andrew: For your weight, put 46 pounds of air in the tire, measured when COLD. If you are measuring 40 PSI when its hot, its not enough air, and the tire is getting too hot, and maybe soft. Use a DEPENDABLE, PROVEN gauge. Digital is best, but even then, check it against a KNOWN ACCURATE GAUGE. If your gauge is 10% off, AND your measuring the tire when its hot, you COULD have less than 35 pounds when its cold. Not a good thing.

 

Put 35 pounds of air in the shock as a test...use an accurate suspension type air pump...NOT the air hose from a compressor....while youre under there checking things, make SURE the lower shock mount is NOT oily. Dirty is normal, OILY is not.

 

Take it for a ride after you do these things, pay attention to whether it rubs constantly or only on compression, and get back to us.

 

Brian

I reassembed everything, put 46# in the rear cold (two gauge check), my shock pump max's at 30#, thats whats in it. no oily shock.

 

As noted, this noise appears after about 15mins of riding. sure enough 15 mins or so into my test ride, pull the clutch and theres the noise. Im chasing a rubbing tire but Im wondering if this is somehow related to the drive line/tranny. This noise is absolutely more obvious when I pull the clutch. Stock pipes and on a quiet road, in gear, I can hear it but pull teh clutch and its much loader ..... However, on this test ride the noise disappeared for the remainder of my ride back.

 

so confused. Im dont for today, its pouring.

 

THANK YOU EVERYONE. your advice and concern is very much appreciated. Ill be on line for a while

[gibvel]

Personally, I wouldn't take anything apart... drive shaft etc. until you figure this out. It has to be do to something that you did while mounting OR the tire. By taking more stuff apart you're adding things into the mix that could, now, be wrong.

 

Like you said, it wasn't doing it before you changed the tire so it has to be something that you did in the process of changing the tire and or something on the wheel.

 

I agree with tx2sturgis that it appears the tire is rubbing something.

 

Good luck!!

[flb_78]

Sounds like you're hearing the brake pads rub on the disc, which is normal.

 

Ride it till the noise comes back and LIGHTLY apply the rear brake.

[Guest tx2sturgis]

My next post was going to be about brake pad rubbing...but forest beat me to it. Brake noise will disappear when you apply the brakes...but this does not explain the shiny strips on the tires. However, whatever did that may not be doing it now....

 

Back to the idea about the nail polish...but use something REALLY manly like a grease pencil or even some white-out correction fluid....lets completely eliminate this possible source of the noise. Or not.

 

No resting now Andrew....git-r-dun!

 

 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2010 by tx2sturgis

[ablumny]

Im going to feel pretty stupid if this was brake pad related. Not sure why it'd take 15 mins for it to appear if it were brake pads.

 

Also, imagine it were the brake pads. Now imagine the rotor was warped so teh noise pulses, not consistent.....

 

Anyway its pouring so I'll try again later.

[Guest tx2sturgis]

Im going to feel pretty stupid if this was brake pad related. Not sure why it'd take 15 mins for it to appear if it were brake pads.

 

Also, imagine it were the brake pads. Now imagine the rotor was warped so teh noise pulses, not consistent.....

 

Anyway its pouring so I'll try again later.

 

Brake pad noise is pretty common after a tire change. Brake dust gets moved around, as road dust also gets knocked around and falls on the brake pads. Not unusual at all. And brakes heat up from use of course...and get a bit warm even when NOT being used aggressively, from bearing heat, driveline heat, and tire heat in close proximity. And no brake rotor is perfectly true. A pulsating, scraping sound is normal here sometimes. I would describe scraping brake pads as being like the noise that steel wool makes when you scrape an iron or aluminum skillet, using a circular motion in the pan. It's metallic sounding, but with the clutch noise changing, it may get muffled or sound out of place.

 

One more thing it could be is the exterior dust seal on the hub. It may have picked up some dust or dirt and slightly scraping the wheel hub. Its on the left side.

 

Hope you figure this out.

Edited July 10, 2010 by tx2sturgis