ABS mandatory?

[Guest tx2sturgis]

Another attempt at putting the government in charge of designing motorcycles:

 

http://www.motorcycle.com/news/should-abs-be-required-on-all-motorcycles-89548.html

[Aimhigh]

I continue to marvel at the superlative abilities and knowledge that the weanies in government (think they) possess!

[CMIKE]

I continue to marvel at the superlative abilities and knowledge that the weanies in government (think they) possess!

 

Yep...I have never understood how by simply getting elected to office you become the smartest people in the world. They do not take into those unintential consequenses that cause other problems that are worst than the problems they were trying to fix.

[Rocket]

I continue to marvel at the superlative abilities and knowledge that the weanies in government (think they) possess!

 

"The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety is appealing to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to make ABS standard on all new motorcycles in the United States."

 

Not the Govt, by the looks of it............

[Guest tx2sturgis]

"The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety is appealing to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to make ABS standard on all new motorcycles in the United States."

 

Not the Govt, by the looks of it............

 

 

NHTSA IS government, and the IIHS wants them to mandate ABS. So yes, as I stated, its another attempt at putting the government in charge of vehicle design, for better or worse.

[rumboogy]

Hmmmm, regardless of their motives and whether you like them or not, I can't see any affiliation with the government or anything stating it is a governmental agency. Looks more like it is an independent organization funded mostly by all the major insurance companies.

 

Just saying...

[Guest tx2sturgis]

Hmmmm, regardless of their motives and whether you like them or not, I can't see any affiliation with the government or anything stating it is a governmental agency. Looks more like it is an independent organization funded mostly by all the major insurance companies.

 

Just saying...

 

From WIKIPEDIA:

 

 

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA, often pronounced "nit-suh") is an agency of the Executive Branch of the U.S. Government, part of the Department of Transportation. It describes its mission as “Save lives, prevent injuries, reduce vehicle-related crashes.”

[Missionary Rider]

Hmmmm, regardless of their motives and whether you like them or not, I can't see any affiliation with the government or anything stating it is a governmental agency. Looks more like it is an independent organization funded mostly by all the major insurance companies.

 

Glad someone actually read the article.

When you look at the statistics, it is not surprising that the insurance industry would be pressing for ABS on bikes. We pretty much accept ABS as a given in a cage, why not on a bike? How many guys here have "locked it up" in a panic stop? How many posts have there been about changing the braking on the RSV to keep it from locking up? If ABS came standard, how many of us would disable it? Making it standard on bikes will indeed bring the price down - and probably make riding safer.

Let the stone throwing begin

Lynn

[rumboogy]

Right, but I wasn't talking about the NHTSA, I was talking about the IISH.

 

The IIHS is not a government agency but, yes they are asking a government agency to consider a law to make ABS brakes mandatory on all new bikes.

 

There are lots of organizations that are not affiliated with the government that ask for changes in laws.

 

Even ABATE, which is an organization for bikers rights has to work closely with government agencies to initiate change.

 

I think I just misunderstood and thought you were talking only of the IIHS.

[Guest tx2sturgis]

Well regardless, the problem with statistics that the IIHS quoted in the article, is that most data on this subject tends to be suspect.

 

 

Are the bikes with ABS safer? Or are the riders who CHOOSE TO BUY a more expensive bike with ABS simply safer riders to begin with?

 

Helmeted riders are involved in fewer crashes also, as an overall statistic, but the helmets don't PREVENT crashes...

 

There are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics. Or so its been said!

[Guest tx2sturgis]

....Making it standard on bikes will indeed bring the price down - and probably make riding safer.

Let the stone throwing begin

Lynn

 

Its been proven that a skilled rider can brake harder and faster WITHOUT ABS, especially in curves. However, beginning riders and those under duress or chemical influence may indeed benefit from ABS. My point would be that like helmets, motorcycle airbags, safety orange vests, headlight modulators, driving lights, and all sorts of safety upgrades, it should be the riders choice, not the governments job.

 

As far as making it cheaper...hmmm...when has making ANYTHING mandatory made it cheaper? Only mass production can do that. What it WILL do is make the manufacturers happy...especially those who make the electronic and mechanical parts for the ABS system.

 

 

[BEER30]

ABS= Alternative Boot Sliding......Redneck Style , about as cheap as you can get!

 

BEER30

[a1bummer]

Well regardless, the problem with statistics that the IIHS quoted in the article, is that most data on this subject tends to be suspect.

 

 

Are the bikes with ABS safer? Or are the riders who CHOOSE TO BUY a more expensive bike with ABS simply safer riders to begin with?

 

Helmeted riders are involved in fewer crashes also, as an overall statistic, but the helmets don't PREVENT crashes...

 

There are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics. Or so its been said!

 

Very well put. In college statistics courses, they teach you how to look between the lines for just these reasons. Always be suspicious of how the data was taken, for what reason, and by whom, etc.

 

But I myself wouldn't mind having anti-lock brakes. Though I don't think the guberment or insurance companies should make it mandatory. Especially insurance companies. Look how much pull they have in our lives already.

[Guest Swifty]

Its been proven that a skilled rider can brake harder and faster WITHOUT ABS, especially in curves.

I'd like to read any article on that topic.

Do you have one handy?

Me thinks "skilled" equals "professional racer", and in that case would there be even one venturerider who could stop faster than a 2nd gen rider with ABS?

[hig4s]

Its been proven that a skilled rider can brake harder and faster WITHOUT ABS, especially in curves.

 

 

 

Yes it has been proven that a very skilled rider, with race experience and on clean dry pavement can stop harder without ABS.

 

I'll bet you you can't!!!

 

I have no problem with ABS on any pavement only bike. For dual sports and off road bikes, only if they have an off switch.

[Guest tx2sturgis]

Yes it has been proven that a very skilled rider, with race experience and on clean dry pavement can stop harder without ABS.

 

I'll bet you you can't!!!

 

I have no problem with ABS on any pavement only bike. For dual sports and off road bikes, only if they have an off switch.

 

Suppose I AM in that 10% of riders ( or whatever the figure is) who can stop faster without ABS...and I'm in an avoidance maneuver that demands that I stop in say, 134 feet, not the 139 feet the ABS provides...and that 5 extra feet kills me because I 't-bone' a truck....how was this SAFER for ME?

 

Like passenger airbags on cars, an On-Off switch would be a GOOD idea.

 

[RandyR]

My one experience with ABS on a motorcycle, a BMW K1100 was bad.

 

The ABS brakes were a constant source of mechanical problems.

 

Hopefully that is not 'normal', but thats my experience.

[hig4s]

Suppose I AM in that 10% of riders ( or whatever the figure is) who can stop faster without ABS...and I'm in an avoidance maneuver that demands that I stop in say, 134 feet, not the 139 feet the ABS provides...and that 5 extra feet kills me because I 't-bone' a truck....how was this SAFER for ME?

 

Like passenger airbags on cars, an On-Off switch would be a GOOD idea.

 

 

Bogus argument, more like 1%, and then again ONLY on clean dry pavement. When is the last time you saw clean dry pavement not on a race track? It has been proven that even top professional racers cannot stop as fast and keep the bike in two wheels as well as ABS in less than optimum conditions.

 

But even given that one in a million chance a person could have stopped better without ABS, so what. It is still safer overall for most people.

[Flyinfool]

I have never ridden a bike with ABS.

In my truck I have the ABS disabled.

I can stop significantly faster without the ABS than with on any road surface from dry to dirt to snow.

 

I do have 15 years of dirt track racing experience.

[Guest tx2sturgis]

Bogus argument, more like 1%, and then again ONLY on clean dry pavement.

 

But even given that one in a million chance a person could have stopped better without ABS, so what. It is still safer overall for most people.

 

That last line sounds a lot like like safety-crat socialism. Most riders prefer to be different...not forced to be 'safe'...if that was the case, and you value safety above ALL else, even freedom to choose, then why the heck are you riding a motorcycle at all? Why not let the govenment limit all motorcycles to 36 hp? Heck, mandate training wheels too.

 

And, how do YOU know what the percentage of skilled riders is? Do you have the documented figures? Do you know what the failure rates are for all that hardware and software? If someone IS in that 1% or 10 % why make that person LESS SAFE?

 

I drive ABS equipped commercial motor vehicles and I can tell you that those systems DO fail. Do you know what the proper technique is for applying ABS brakes in a panic situation? Are you sure EVERY rider does, all the time? If a rider mis-uses the ABS system in a panic stop, his stopping distance will be GREATLY extended. By your figures 99% of us barely know what we are doing.

 

Hey, all I'm sayin is, let the rider decide, NOT the government. I am NOT against ABS brakes.

 

Edited May 17, 2010 by tx2sturgis

[Condor]

Ya know, I gotta jump in here and say something. I'm in the ABS camp. I don't think there's some sort of government conspiracy to make ABS mandatory. I also don't think there's a rider out there that's an expert on stopping a MC in a panic stop. Basically because there aren't any riders out there that go around practicing real time panic stops, and if there are I certainly don't want to be around them. A half dozen panics in a life time doesn't make you an expert.

There were some statements about it's 'proven' that a non-ABS rider will stop quicker than an ABS rider, but didn't add any sources to back up their statement. So I thought what the heck I'll do an unbiased search. I'm always willing to learn. So I did a google for 'motorcycle ABS tests', and received a bunch of hits. One from the MSF in Pfd format is interesting. Lots of numbers. Some pro and some con, but the end recap I think says it all. Here's another from the BMW site, that proved to be very interesting. There were a bunch more.

I've always thought ABS was a good thing, and now after reading some of the results, I'm sure of it. Anyone who want's to refute those results, and thinks that he or she can do better, by all means go run your own tests and post the figures that support your findings.

I'm all for MC safety. Anything that can save a life is a good thing.

[hig4s]

 

Hey, all I'm sayin is, let the rider decide, NOT the government. I am NOT against ABS brakes.

 

 

And I'm not against an on/off switch, and don't really care if the government mandates ABS or not on motorcycles. But your same argument can be used to allow lots of other things to be made choice. Are you sure you want everything to be the choice of the average intelligence American?

 

Just sticking with vehicles, should we allow vehicles to be sold without, head lights, horns, turn signals, air bags, collapsible steering columns, or any of the other of the hundreds of standards required. If left to the manufacturers they wouldn't put brakes on them if they thought they could save money and still sell them.

 

And I am getting tired of what I perceive to be rude bold type, and your insinuating I'm either a democrat or socialist or both. I volunteered for military service during the end of Nam, and tried to go back in during Desert Storm, but they weren't taking anyone over 30 back in then. I believe I have earned the right to express my opinion without being insulted. I wonder if you would have made that reference were we talking in person.

 

And just for the record, I am neither Republican nor Democrat, I will not align myself with of those lying, cheating, money grubbing, organizations.

[saltcreep]

Ugh.. I think they are are a great idea that should be an option for people to choose or not.

Really don't want more govt mandated anything.. enough is enough. Like the mini-blind recalls...

[hig4s]

I have never ridden a bike with ABS.

In my truck I have the ABS disabled.

I can stop significantly faster without the ABS than with on any road surface from dry to dirt to snow.

 

I do have 15 years of dirt track racing experience.

 

What type of truck and how old?

[RedRaptor22]

I've been in plenty of oh-$hit situations and locking the brakes has never been a problem and never once did I wish I'd have had abs.

 

Simple fact is that on a bike experience and practice make the difference when it comes to situations when hard braking is needed.

 

Do you think power steering would help prevent riders from hitting left turners and redlight runners? dont think so.

 

We've been having this discussion over on the SV forums for a while too and the few main things to take into account that these studies do not, while abs bikes do tend to be involved in less wrecks they don't factor in what types of bikes are the ones being involved.

 

Most abs bikes are the sport touring bikes these days like FJR's and such, generally by their very nature and intended segment of riders they are way less likely to be involved in a crash abs or not because they are mostly ridden by older more conservative riders.

 

Most flagship super sports come standard with abs now too and are still at the higher end of the crash chance percentages only because of the type of people who ride them, usually younger people who have little to no experience who have no business on any type of bike, or more experienced riders who simply feel the need to push the boundaries of themselves and their machines...either case the vast majority of crashes on sportbikes involve only the rider and happen when brakes are'nt a factor.

 

Then there is the HD cruiser crowd, well, those guys have a lifestyle to live up to.