Kick stand reminder.......again.

[Snaggletooth]

I know we talked about this a couple of years ago and I checked mine then and put in a new shoulder bolt......and checked it again a year ago. But did I check it this year? Well......er ......no.

 

So today I'm leaving work and I'm out in front of the store. I had to run back in for a second so I pull the bike up by the front walk and threw down the kick stand, leaned the bike over on it and was lifting my leg up over the back rest and I felt her start to drop. Like a rock. I've got the right leg still in the air and the left foot is sliding away. I'm a big fella at 6' 3" and 285 but the bike had me at the disadvantage at that point. I got my right leg back down on the far side and got my left foot to stop skidding and got the bike stopped from going over any farther.

 

So there I am.....holding up the great beast at a rather difficult angle......can't tell if I'm at a stopping point or if I let her back to the left if she will keep going. Hummmm....why am I sweating like this?

 

So there was a fella that saw me wrestling the bike and he came running over. Nice guy, and thank you sir for the offer, but he's all of 5'5" and a 150 lbs if that. He asked what he could do to help.

 

Me: "Look for the pink thing"

 

Him: "What's it look like?"

 

Me: "Pink....maybe a little purple by now"

 

Him: "What's it shaped like?"

 

Me: "Kinda round.......a little fussy looking"

 

Him: "Where would it be?"

 

Me: "Probably by my left boot"

 

Him: "Did it fall off the bike?"

 

Me: "No sir.....it may have fallen off me!"

 

Then it hit him......and at that point he was worthless. Couldn't quit laughing. But he was able to give me a boost back up and got her balanced again and able to get off and get her on the center stand. Yep....broken shoulder bolt and the flange was spread open.

 

I was prepared. I had an extra kick stand at home. A spare part I never thought I would need. Yeah...right.

 

Now I don't know how many of you guys have tried to get off one of these things without using the kick stand and have a back rest to boot.....but it's a bit probmatic.

 

So take a minute to take a look at that bolt and save yourself the conversation I had to have with a complete stranger. I'm betting he will remember the big guy in the leather jacket and dark shapes that sounded like a choir boy.

 

Check all your nuts while you're at it. I've got mine on ice now. If I make it back to tenor by tonigiht I'll be happy.

 

[SilvrT]

been there, done that ... when I had my '85

 

Was stopped at a Yammi dealer, right out front where all the bikes are parked and all the customers are millin about. Went to leave, swung my right leg over and plunked down on the seat...hadn't planted my left foot/leg to lift the bike off the kickstand yet... too late! *SNAP* and over me and the bike go before I knew what happened!

 

Some guy came over and helped me stand it back up but when I got home, it was no easy job steadying the scoot (and myself) while I dismounted and adjusted my body, etc to get her up onto the centre stand. Keep in mind, I'm a "little guy" (155lbs nekkid and soakin wet) albeit a tad wirey.

 

Never had such a thing happen before on any bike...or since but I'm always a bit wary now. Kinda freaks me to see folks who allow their passenger to mount/dismount while all that is holding the scoot is that one bolt on the side stand. I'd hate to see it snap while some guys "better half" is in the process and he ain't fully bracin the scoot. This is one of the reason's I always get on the bike and hold it upright first before my passenger gets on.

[Pappa Bear]

as a preventive maint. project what type of bolt should I replace the problem bolt with? Hopefully not the same kind thats in there now!!! Ya know --- bolt size and type! Thanks and just when I was feelin good about the old girl, I think I'll go to the garage and put her up on 2 legs till I get that better bolt in her. Sure would be a sick sight to see that big thing layin on her side like 2 tone Burgandy Elephant.

[Pappa Bear]

and another thing, what would stop a guy from making some type of bushing to protect that bolt or are they breaking from fatigue?

[Snaggletooth]

Hey Poppa Bear.

 

It's kind of an engineering problem really. The bolt of course is a shoulder bolt. The front (outer side) of the kick stand is smooth bore and the rear is threaded to receive the threaded bolt. There is a nut on the back side of the stand to secure the bolt.

 

When the bike was new they were probably close to a tolerance fit. But with time and wear with the kick stand rotation and vibrating the inner surface of the kick stand wears as well as the shoulder surface of the bolt itself. Now you have pressure on the insides of the flange itself also. As was discussed a couple of years ago many found the bolt to be a bit loose. That added to the wear on the smooth bore on the outside flange, causing it to take on an oval shape.

 

And then there is some wear on the mounting tab that is welded onto the frame of the bike. With all that working against each other the pressure on the bolt shoulder increases and the threaded section will snap off. What then happens the outer flange can be, as in the pic, the only thing supporting the weight of the bike and will spread apart. I was lucky enough the flange didn't snap off completly.

 

I did find a shoulder bolt at the hardware store a couple of years ago. It was the correct thread and long enough but the shoulder was a bit smaller in diameter. I tried to make a bushing out of stock that would tighten the fit. With the hole in the flange wallowed out of shape it wouldn't fit right. The idea of drilling out the flange didn't seem like a good idea as that would remove a lot of material from the kick stand itself and weaken it.

 

So no matter the condition of the bolt, used or new, the worn outer flange will not support the shoulder properly and there again you have side pressure on the bolt shoulder causing it to break. The only thing I can see is having the hole built up inside and rebored to fit a new bolt. I have no idea if anyone has had any luck with that. I might have a buddy of mine try a couple of things with a welder and see how strong the kick stand can be made and try to rebore the hole to line up with the threads.

 

Another experiment to try.

 

BTW the part number for the bolt is:

90109-104E6-00

Edited May 7, 2010 by Snaggletooth

[JoenLinda]

Linda has been having a hard time getting on and off the bike so I suggested she get on before me and get settled. Guess I better find a better way. I've always gotten on my bikes first and then the passenger gets on, no matter how much of a struggle it is for them. Guess I'll have to go back to that:pushups: Joe

[Guest Swifty]

My experience with someone watching me...and it go over.

I'm pulling a trailer fully loaded heading over a huge gutter style curb into a gas station near New Orleans somewhere...an old guy, a really old guy named Lowell riding a Kawasaki is following me. I try to hit the curb as perpendicular as possible, but when the trailer hits the curb one wheel makes contact first and is enough to knock the bike off balance. I hit the brakes, stop the bike, put out my left foot and stop it from going over, but I don't have enough leverage to pull it back upright...there I am holding it, and holding it, and holding it, and holding it. Finally, I twist my head back to see the old fart on his Kawasaki; I yell...ARE YOU GOING TO GET OFF YOUR SCRAWNY A$$ AND HELP ME OR SHOULD I JUST LAY IT OVER!? ...remember, I'm holding it and holding it and holding it....Well, he's stopped in the middle of the road waiting for me to clear the way, and I can see he'll take forever getting his bike on it's stand and even longer to get his bum leg over the seat, so I just decide to let it go slowly over onto the crash bar. Lowell smiles, stays on his bike, lights a smoke and watches me lift it back up and pull up to the pumps. (the advantages of travelling with someone...old...help is always an hour away and smiles are only 2 seconds away!!)

[Venturous Randy]

Actually, the stock bolt should work fine and is strong enough for about anyone climbing on or off the bike, IF YOU KEEP IT TIGHT TO THE POINT IS ALMOST PINCHING THE KICKSTAND. The only problem I have ever seen, and it also happened to me, is to let the bolt get loose and then there is a whole other set of dynamics at play on the force on the bolt and that is why they break.

Good reminder and I am going to check mine tomorrow.

RandyA

[6m459]

I recently found that the nut on the end of the long frame member bolt, that goes through the front engine mounts, had come loose and dropped off my blue bike!

 

Fortunately, despite having a sense that my frame was feeling a bit flexi lately, I and the bike were none the worse for wear. Also fortunately, my local Canadian Tire Store stocks a good range of metric hardware including the Nylox shake proof type which is whats on there now.

 

I am going to go on a wholesale nut and bolt tightening blitz this weekend before putting a leg over that beast again!

 

Hope this is of interest and not too far off topic.

 

Cheers,

 

Brian H.

[jdross440]

I bought a grade 8 bolt and had the machine shop at my work turn it down and thread it to match the factory shoulder bolt. The original is a milder grade (4 or 5) of steel that fatigues where the threads end and shoulder begins.

[Flyinfool]

I bought a grade 8 bolt and had the machine shop at my work turn it down and thread it to match the factory shoulder bolt. The original is a milder grade (4 or 5) of steel that fatigues where the threads end and shoulder begins.

 

I don't see any sign of rust on that broken bolt, is it by chance stainless steel?

 

Most stainless hardware is equivalent to grade 2. Wimpy.

 

It also looks like a pretty big relief cut at the point that the bolt broke. A designed in weak spot.

[Snaggletooth]

No rust on that puppy! Only two years old and kept it greased to avoid rust and binding. It's the stock OEM bolt and it's hardened. The bolt I found at the hardware store was not.

 

I like what Dingy came up with. That eliminates the relief cut on the bolt altogether which as Flyinfool said, a designed in weak spot.

 

Dingys fix:

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?threadid=48342

[Carbon_One]

Side stand problem??? What side stand???

Larry

OK I was being a smart a**. Sleeving it I think would be the best cure since being shouldered you'll never get the sloppyness out once it's worn. Then just use a full length bolt for full strenght thus avoiding the weak shouldered one.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Carbon_One

[warthogcrewchief]

I'm thinking that a way to prevent future play and subsequent wear would be to tap a steel sleeve into the kickstand assembly. If a single full length sleeve wouldn't work, then would two work? The ID (Inside Diameter) of the sleeve should closely mate up with the OD (Outside Diameter) of the bolts grip (un-threaded portion). Keeping that bolt well lubed will help to prevent galvanic corrosion (caused when two different metals in contact with each other come in contact with an electrolyte).

[Condor]

One of the big reasons that these bolts are breaking is when the kickstand starts to get a little sloppy the first thing that's done is to torque down on the bolt to take some of the wiggle out of the side stand. It doesn't work. So the bolt is tightened some more to the point it's over torqued. Finally we give up and figure that's the way it's going to be, and we'll live with it. Tightening the pivot bolt will do absolutely nothing to take the looseness out of a side stand, but it will over torque the bolt to the point that later on down the road the bolt will snap. It's a shouldered bolt. It only tightens against the face of the threaded side of the pivot yoke. That's why there's a lock nut on the bolt. When the bolt does break, generally what happens is the yoke will deform as the bike goes down. The bent yoke is a result of the snapped bolt, and from experience it's a PITA to align the thing back up again. It has to be perfectly aligned for the new bolt to start to thread. So if you've been trying to take the slop out of your sidestand by tightening the bolt you might want to loosen it back up and then just snug it down, or you'll be picking the scoot off the ground.

[Snaggletooth]

 

Well put Jack. That's just it. Tightening the shoulder bolt is just and only that. It does not tighten anything else.

[Pappa Bear]

I put mine up on the center stand and definately will be picking up a new bolt for the repair tomorrow. Just a little to much free movement side to side for my likeing. Will feel alot better about it being changed! P.S. a note of reminder for Dons maint day to bring your kickstand pad if you park in the grass along the driveway, last year I forgot mine and used a pair of vicegrips to lean her on, can't wait! Good times

[jasonm.]

One of the big reasons that these bolts are breaking is when the kickstand starts to get a little sloppy the first thing that's done is to torque down on the bolt to take some of the wiggle out of the side stand. It doesn't work. So the bolt is tightened some more to the point it's over torqued. Finally we give up and figure that's the way it's going to be, and we'll live with it. Tightening the pivot bolt will do absolutely nothing to take the looseness out of a side stand, but it will over torque the bolt to the point that later on down the road the bolt will snap. It's a shouldered bolt. It only tightens against the face of the threaded side of the pivot yoke. That's why there's a lock nut on the bolt. When the bolt does break, generally what happens is the yoke will deform as the bike goes down. The bent yoke is a result of the snapped bolt, and from experience it's a PITA to align the thing back up again. It has to be perfectly aligned for the new bolt to start to thread. So if you've been trying to take the slop out of your sidestand by tightening the bolt you might want to loosen it back up and then just snug it down, or you'll be picking the scoot off the ground.

So what's the recommended torque spec? I know the 10mm thread per the Yamaha manual can handle a min. 22 ft/lbs. I know the 10mm bolts elsewhere on the bike are rated for 32 ft/lbs. Anyone know the Spec. on this ...anyone? Also I just took my bolt out. And it looked fine. And thought the exact spec. would be in the book.. SH*T it's not. So I split the difference and tightened to 28 ft.lbs.or so....oh jeeezzzz....doahhh! looks like I'll be doing the "Dingy change"...

Edited September 26, 2010 by jasonm.

[dunsonaventure]

I know its not funny. could gooten hurt or God forbid scratched the bike. But Damn that story was funny!!!!

[Eck]

My experience with someone watching me...and it go over.

I yell...ARE YOU GOING TO GET OFF YOUR SCRAWNY A$$ AND HELP ME OR SHOULD I JUST LAY IT OVER!? ...remember, I'm holding it and holding it and holding it....Well, he's stopped in the middle of the road waiting for me to clear the way, and I can see he'll take forever getting his bike on it's stand and even longer to get his bum leg over the seat, so I just decide to let it go slowly over onto the crash bar.

 

Lowell smiles, stays on his bike, lights a smoke and watches me lift it back up and pull up to the pumps. (the advantages of travelling with someone...old...help is always an hour away and smiles are only 2 seconds away!!)

 

 

I have many fond memories rideing with Lowel.. (any you Swifty)

No one could ever take Lowes place.

 

I remember Lowel,you and I in Ft. Colins and we were ended up on that dirt road that looked like a snake from H.. with hair pin turns, with no gard rails..and every bit of it was down holl at around a 70 degree angle..we stopped at the shell station in the small town at the bottom of that road before we jumped onto the interstate to go west ward.

I will never forget that road.. When we got back to Ft. Collins that evening to the VFW one of the VR.Org members who lives in that area asked me where we rode to today.

I began to tell him of the dirt road we went ended up on and went down, and he said, I know that road very well, then he asked me: Do you know what the name of the road is?

I said No.

He said the name of that road is: OH MY GOD ROAD....

[albyzee]

Is this something I should keep an eye on for my 2007 RSTD besides the usual check for loose anything.?

[Thom]

:bang head::bang head:I chked mine last year and gave it a little tweak no problem found . saw the old post and what the he!! , got to change the oil , I'll check it again ! warning !!! if you have a 1st gen GO CHECK IT RIGHT NOW !!!!!

mine was lose , spread and the bolt looked like this

I did the Dingy fix , Thank You Sir !!!

[sleepy2]

Would a grade8 bolt be a better replacement as they are supposed to take a lot bigger side load than grade5.

[Thom]

check out this link http://www.venturerider.org/forum/sh...threadid=48342 I got the bolt from ace hardware it is a 12 x 175 x 60 grade 10.6 and it works just like Dingy said

[dingy]

Would a grade8 bolt be a better replacement as they are supposed to take a lot bigger side load than grade5.

 

 

Grade 8 would be preferred over grade 5. Grade 8 is roughly 25% stronger than a grade 5 as far as tensile strength. There is also a metric grade 12.9 that is better yet, but much less common.

 

I used the metric sizing due to the shoulder portion was sized to fit in the existing holes.

 

Metric size is probably a little harder to find, but it will work out better.

 

I have a local hardware that is with the Do It Best chain and they have a great selection. Ace hardware is another good source.

 

Link to this is at http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?threadid=48342 , as noted above.

 

Gary