Linked Brakes

[Orrin]

While Recuperating, I Am Having A Lot Of Time To Think About My Accident. What Caused It, How I Performed And How The Bike Performed.

 

1st Is Easy...i Was Not Paying Close Enough Attention, Flat Out My Fault.

 

2nd Has Required Deep Thought. I Know I Hit The Rear Brake Hard And I Think I Used Enough Front Brake, But Not Sure. My Reflexes Being What They Have Become, Is That I Have A Really Quick Right Foot. Did I High Side Myself? Not Sure But Think I Did. Sure Hit The Payment Hard. I Have Done Some Slow Speed Practice Emergency Stops, But Am Reluctant To Practice At High Speed..40-50 Mph. I Know I Skidded The Rear Tire, But Not Sure About The Front. Maybe If I Was As Quick With The Front As The Rear I Might Not Have Crashed.

 

3rd, The Bike Did What I Told It To, But I Think Is Capable Of Much More. Is It Possible To Link The Brakes On These Bikes And Still Keep Good Control In All Situations?

 

Why Would It Not Be Good To Have Both Brakes Come On With One Control Instead Of Two? I Know That Racers And Certain Sport Bikes Need Independant Brake Control Because Of Their Riding Styles. I Don't Ride That Way, I Don't Want To See How Far I Can Lean The Bike Over, I Like To Cruise And Tour.

 

What I Would Like To Do Is To Link And Balance The Brakes. Is It Feasible? All Thoughts Appreciated.

[DragonRider]

Which bike were you riding when you had your accident?

[Orrin]

I Was On The Rstd.

[BOO]

While Recuperating, I Am Having A Lot Of Time To Think About My Accident. What Caused It, How I Performed And How The Bike Performed.

 

1st Is Easy...i Was Not Paying Close Enough Attention, Flat Out My Fault.

 

On my trip this summer I did the same thing and I believe the rider that went down in front of me also was not paying close enough attention. I did not crash but I sure could have.

 

2nd Has Required Deep Thought. I Know I Hit The Rear Brake Hard And I Think I Used Enough Front Brake, But Not Sure. My Reflexes Being What They Have Become, Is That I Have A Really Quick Right Foot. Did I High Side Myself? Not Sure But Think I Did. Sure Hit The Payment Hard. I Have Done Some Slow Speed Practice Emergency Stops, But Am Reluctant To Practice At High Speed..40-50 Mph. I Know I Skidded The Rear Tire, But Not Sure About The Front. Maybe If I Was As Quick With The Front As The Rear I Might Not Have Crashed.

 

I also locked up the rear tire and the rear end began to pass the front at which time I did let up on the foot brake, I think I was applying front brake but probably not enough. When I did let up on the rear brake the bike made a very sudden jerk to straighten up. I again applied the rear brake hard along with a lot of front brake and stopped the bike just short of the rear bumper of the car I was following. I did slide the rear tire the second time but somewhere in my mind I was told to apply a lot of front brake. Have to tell you it scared the crap out of me.

 

3rd, The Bike Did What I Told It To, But I Think Is Capable Of Much More. Is It Possible To Link The Brakes On These Bikes And Still Keep Good Control In All Situations?

 

The first Generation Ventures have linked brakes and they work very well, got me out of several tight situations.

 

Why Would It Not Be Good To Have Both Brakes Come On With One Control Instead Of Two? I Know That Racers And Certain Sport Bikes Need Independant Brake Control Because Of Their Riding Styles. I Don't Ride That Way, I Don't Want To See How Far I Can Lean The Bike Over, I Like To Cruise And Tour.

 

What I Would Like To Do Is To Link And Balance The Brakes. Is It Feasible? All Thoughts Appreciated.

 

I think it is possible. I know Rick Butler and some others have tried and not come up with a solution. I have an idea I'm going to try this winter if I get time to link the brakes. I have read all the posts about linking brakes with great interest.

I know it's just a matter of time before I run into something or go down in some way. I had a long time to think about this issue on my trip and I was ready to come home and buy a different bike, maybe even a First Generation Venture but so far all I have done is talk about and ride several new bikes. I really fine nothing I like as well as the RSV so I am thinking of trying to link the brakes. We'll see.

Jerry

 

 

Jerry

[hipshot]

not having ridden a second gen, i cannot comment on how the brakes work. some here, like freebird,have installed a "metering valve" of sorts that helps keep the rear tire from locking up.

i never have been able to understand why yamaha, decided to stop linking the brakes on these behemoths!lord knows , they are a great idea.

just jt

[CrazyHorse]

I think you would be better off on a bike that has ABS. If you locked the rear you probably had the rear start to come around and then you probably let up on the rear which if you at a higher speed will snap the rear back to a straight position violently throwing you off in a high side flip which is not good for you or the bike. Unless you get off the rear very quickly before it really starts to come around you will have to pretty much stay locked and possibly low side crash, which is better then high siding. 80% of your braking capability comes from the front brake dont be afraid to use it. (locking up front in wet or gravel is not good either quick low side crash). I not familiar with 2nd Gen I dont know if they have anti dive forks like 1st Gen. I delinked my brakes on my bike since I dont like the feel of them for all situations. I'm more comfortable being the one controlling which brake is working. ( I know I'm the devil for doing this I dont need to hear about it.) and my braking style is rear brake a split second before front to help stabilize the suspension helps keep the forks from diving to much (which lifts the rear tire more and makes it easier to lock the rear)

 

Having experience with ABS on a motorcycle I think your average Joe would be better suited to ABS unless you want to practice maximum braking alot. I have seen (I must admit I was not manly enough and did not volunteer ) a guy do 45 mph on a Harley with ABS apply maximum brake on gravel in an attempt to lock them and did not go down.

 

I believe you should also practice braking from any speed you regularly travel at if its highway speeds practice from that otherwise how do know where the limitations of your bike are under controlled conditions? Or slowly work up to higher speeds until you get to the speed you most travel at. I believe its something everyone needs to do for your own safety. Too many of us just get on the bikes and never practice riding things like maximum braking etc.

 

I guess you could try the Rick Butler linking on your 2nd Gen and it probably would help those of you that love to use only the rear brake for all of your stops except panic stops (because it makes you use the front brake which is what you should use for most situations anyway.) but I would think you would be better of on a different bike with ABS if your concerned about locking tires up .

 

I'm not trying to lecture I just don't want to see anymore from this group get hurt. I hope your feeling better.

[eagleeye]

Orrin,

This just hit me like a bolt out of the blue---------

I don't know why I didn't think of it sooner.

 

You need to buy my 1st generation, it has linked brakes.

 

:rotf::rotf::rotf::rotf:

 

But seriously, you need to grab a handful of front brake.

 

Steve

[cowpuc]

I have owned 1st Gens for years and have also lived on gravel roads for years.. I have also ridden off road scoots all my life and have enjoyed many long hard days participating at both MX tracks and other forms of bike fun..

One of the things that I DONT appreciate about linked brakes is when I am on anything other then pavement.. If you toss the rear end of the Venture out on a gravel corner in a highspeed throttle slide and touch the rear brake to control the slide you WILL feel the front wanting to wash. What concerns me more then anything is what could happen to the unsuspecting road rider if braking at an instance where the road had some gravel on it and the front wheel brake slid.. I KNOW from experience that this can happen..

Personally from MXing I have learned to use very precise front wheel braking - controlled by my index finger only.. The front wheel has amasng stopping power but it can also take you down REAL HARD!!

Please be VERY careful if attempting to design and apply your own linked front brake system.. Theres a lot that can wrong..

Maybe I am overly sensitive about braking designs.. A long time ago I had a friend who built his own 3 wheeler and didnt get the braking correct.. He hit the brakes and his right rear locked and the bike went into the ditch at high speed and slammed a tree.. He is still a parapeliegic (sp).....

2 cents

'Puc

[Rick Butler]

Well Guys,

 

As many of you know this is a problem that has been near and dear to my heart and has tried to kill me three times in the past 5 years. But in each case I didn't do the right thing when it came to emergency stops with the RSV. And even though I seriously considered getting rid of the bike and buy something with ABS, I didn't. I really like this bike's heart and soul so I started looking at resolving the issue with this bike's brakes.

 

But before I go on, I need to make a couple of observations that have been made by folks that are more experienced than I am:

 

1. You are better off with linked brakes than you are without.

2. You should always take advantage of technology and therefore you are better off with ABS brakes than you are without.

 

And after saying this, IMHO the main problem with the RSV and RSTD is that it has too much braking on the rear rotor with a 4 piston caliper. And with the forward brake controls you have too much leverage on the brake pedal, so it is too easy to inadvertently jab the rear brake and lock her up. And once you lock it up and let it start drifting, you pretty much have to stay with it and steer into the slide. Riders that have been brought up on dirt bike pretty much know how to deal with this issue. Because once you let off the rear brake, it's going to grab and possibly high side you.

 

Therefore I feel that we have to start using the front brakes more and leaving the rear brake alone until after we grab the front brake (which is more powerful and easier to modulate). The only time I use the rear brake any more is coming to a final stop. Otherwise it's front brake, front brake, front brake. The nice thing about a front brake lockup is all you have to do it let off the brake and you are back to normal without any adverse effect (unlike a rear brake lockup).

 

So off my soap box. What I have personally done to deal with this issue is 1. change out the front brakes with 4 piston calipers and 2. move a 2 piston front caliper to the rear and also install an adjustable proportioning valve off the rear master cylinder. With these mechanical changes, I now have front brakes from H_ll and a rear brake that will not lock up.

 

However changing out the front calipers is not a cheap proposition therefore I would suggest using the HH pads that many makers now have (but not on the rear). The rear caliper issue is a $130 solution which involves a proportioning valve from Speedway and a stainless line from Galfer, aka the Butler Mod (not my idea) .

 

I really tried to install the components from a 1st gen Venture to link the brakes but it became a very expensive solution. To do this, I had to build a junction block that would take one line in and two lines out, one with the 1st gen proportioning valve to the rear caliper and a metering valve to the left front. In fact I still have all of these components along with $200 of Galfer stainless line to put it together, if someone wants to buy it from me for a steal.

 

And in wrapping this up (like several of you have already said), if you are going to drive 80 mph, then you really need to be able to come to a stop at this speed. And this really involves practice, practice, practice.

 

Hope this helps and if I can help you out on this issue, I will,

 

Rick

[Orrin]

Thanks For The Replies. It Is Not My Intention To Build My Own Brake Systems. (suicide) What I Would Like To Find Out Is If Any One Is Building Aftermarket Brake Systems.

 

I Don't Ride Beyond My Capabilities, Or At Least Try Not To. I Came Back To This Sport After 40 Years And Have Enjoyed It A Great Deal. Both The Bikes And The People, I Have Found The People To Be Much Better Than The Bikes.

 

So That You Know, My Buddy And Were Out On An Easy Ride And Returning Home. He Was In The Left Track Leading And I Was Behind In The Right Track, Staggered. I Don't Think I Was Too Close. He Signaled For A Right Turn And Slowed, I Did Not Catch It Until It Was Almost Too Late. He Was Cross Ways In Front Of Me, We Were On Clean Dry Pavement. I Could Not Go Right. I Braked Hard And Tried To Swerve Left. I Did Not Want To Run Him Over. I Was So Close To Him That I Touched His Bike, No Damage To His, Not Even A Mark, But He Says He Felt It. Next Thing I Remember Is Hitting The Pavement Head First And Then Getting Body Slammed Into The Asphalt. I Think We Were Going About 45 Mph And I Got My Speed Down To ...maybe 20-25 Mph Before Crashing.

 

I Think That With Linked Brakes, That Both Brakes Would Have Come On At The Same Time. My Normal Riding Stops Are With Both Brakes, Always. I Am Not Sure Just What Happened, But The Damage To My Tour Deluxe Is All On The Left Side, And All Omy Injuries Are On The Left Side Except For A Little Road Rash.

 

I Sure Would Like To Find Some Company That Can Engineer A Linked Braking System. I Like My Bike. I Have Been Appologizing To It Everyday, But It Still Won't Speak To Me.

 

Well, Anyway Thanks For Listening.

[Orrin]

Some Of You Are Pretty Close, Maybe We Can Meet Up Next Year?

[Monsta]

Some really good posts here but some still ring with some urban motorcycle myths. Anyway...

 

Orrin, you realized your only mistake. Not paying attention. Doesn't matter what kind of brakes you have, could add or whatever. You need to get back out on the bike and ride but put your time and energy into scanning and observing everything around you: always. Simple as that.

 

You need to practice emergency braking (do it while your bike is still busted up in case you go down:D) I firmly believe you should be able to lock the front wheel and not go down. I can right at the last foot or so. Once you know that threshold then you can safely brake at maximum. Your back brake is for the first second of two to settle the chassis (as stated above) after which you can forget about it unless you've got a passenger, loaded bags or a trailer or any combination above. Although the rear brake is still important for a bike of this weight and wheelbase. My sportbike's rear brakes lasted forever due to their shorter wheelbases.

 

I'm not sure why nobody listens to my suggestion about lowering the rear brake pedal. :confused07:It is too damn high from the factory and lowering it reduces the angle of attack and helps prevent inadvertent lock-up. I can lock up my rear wheel but I gotta almost stand on it to do so. Guess folks would rather add mods to their bike instead.

[Orrin]

Monsta,

Thanks For The Reply. I Am Aware That I Should Have Been More Attentive. However There Are Times Things Sneak Up Or Pop Out At You. I Am Just Thinking I Want More Control/brake Power. I Have Practiced Emergency Stops...maybe Need To Do More. I Will Have To Let The Bones Heal First.

O C

[Freebird]

Folks, you really should consider the proportioning valve modification that Rick Butler has come up with. It's very good and very affordable. You do not have to be a mechanical genius to install it. I think the total time to install is probably about 30 minutes.

[CrazyHorse]

Orrin, you realized your only mistake. Not paying attention. Doesn't matter what kind of brakes you have, could add or whatever. You need to get back out on the bike and ride but put your time and energy into scanning and observing everything around you: always. Simple as that.

 

Monsta is totally right the biggest thing involved in many accidents is the few seconds before the accident occurs usually involving some sort of distraction. You probably could ride a bike with no brakes and only use engine braking if one was totally aware of thier surroundings (well maybe not) but the point is paying attention seeing whats ahead and having ample time to deal with it. I even think sometimes if this happens I'm going here etc.

 

I ride the highway alot to work I learned a big lesson in my big truck ( a day I didnt ride) how my actions can influence others. I was in a hurry and traffic was bad I was following a little to close to a truck in front of me now I had enough room to stop in an emergency straight on (sometimes I use the shoulder to go on to if neccesary to avoid rear ending another car) but this day it came to a narrow bridge I was in the left lane, a car is on my right, a truck in front of me and we have to stop quick I have enough room to stop straight on but barely I could not go left or right, cement on left, car to right and then I hear a sports car, first its loud mufflers on acceleration and then the squeeling tires of braking and I know hes gonna hit me and hes gonna drive me into the guy in front which he did, but just before that I sped up because the guy in front of me sped up enticing the guy behind me to do the same but more aggressively.

 

Now my lesson I drive a big truck I can see further down the road then the guy in front of me. (I was following the guy in front of me tailights.) I should have been paying attention to those cars in front of him also to predict what the guy in front of me was going to do. Now especially on my bike I'm looking ahead of the car in front of me also to give me a heads up on what might happen and if I see those cars slowing down even though the guy directely in front of me has not applied his brakes I'm tapping my brakes to let the guy behind me know we maybe stopping. I also use the Signal Dynamics Back Off brake modulator which flashes quick 5 times and then goes steady to draw peoples attention to the rear end. I use this technique so I'm not enticing someone following my tailights to rear end me.

 

For braking practice I was taught whats called brake and escape. Basically a 40mph slam on of the brakes while downshifting to 1st gear, then getting off the brakes at last second and steering around the obstacle either right or left. Maintaining control of the bike as long a you can (cause its better then crashing) looking where you want to go. (Cause many people fixate on an object they desperately want to avoid only to end up hitting it because they went where they looked. )

 

Safe Riding Everyone.

[hig4s]

Linked brakes are nice but they will not keep you from locking the rear. For that you need ABS, one of the things I wish the Venture had. But the down side to linked brakes is doing slow speed maneuvers in parking lots, you have to be careful if you ride the back brake to help with stability, and if there is sand and gravel the front can catch and cause you to drop the bike. To me the best solution would be independent ABS.

 

As far a using enough front brake, after coming off sport bikes, I find it hard to think you can use too much front brake on the Venture. On my old sport bikes and my dirt bikes I found I could use one or two fingers and get plenty of stopping power on the front, but with the Venture I have to use three fingers and it still seems I have to squeeze harder than I should have to, the front just isn't that sensitive, and the rear is too sensitive.

 

Except when I really need to, I tend to use only front brake. Keeps me in the habit of relying on the brake that actually does most of the stopping. I usually ride with three fingers covering the front brake lever.

[Orrin]

Don,

I Would Like To Get More Information On The Butler Brake Mod That You Mentioned. I Did A Search And Did Not Find It. I Hope It Is Something My Mechanic Can Will Do. Thanks

O C

[Freebird]

Here you go.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=13098

[Orrin]

DON, THANKS FOR THE LINK. JUST GOT DONE READING IT AND I AM EXCITED. SO I HAVE SOME QUESTIONS.

 

WOULD IT BE POSSIBLE TO INSTALL A TEE AHEAD OF RICK'S PROPORTIONING VALVE TO ACTIVATE ONE OF THE CALIPERS ON THE FRONT WHEEL? I LIKE THE IDEA OF THE FOOT PEDAL OPERATING BOTH FRONT AND REAR BRAKES BUT STILL HAVE INDEPENDANT CONTROL OF FRONT BRAKE. WILL THE REAR MASTER CYLINDER HAVE SUFFICIENT VOLUME AND PRESSURE CAPACITY FOR TWO CALIPERS? WHAT DOWN SIDES MIGHT THERE BE TO THIS IDEA?

 

THE MAN WHO IS REPAIRING MY BIKE, RYAN FIELDING OWNER OF PARAGON CUSTOM CYCLES DOES THIS QUITE OFTEN WHEN HE BUILDS CUSTOM BIKES. THE FOOT MASTER CYLINDER OPERATES BOTH. MANY OF HIS CUSTOM CREATIONS HAVE NO FRONT BRAKE CONTROL.

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=13098

 

O C

[BOO]

Orrin,

You posted about getting together sometime. We are only 103 miles apart, heck that is just a breakfast run.

I'm sure Dan (Stardbog) would be up for a run like that.

Let us know,

Jerry

[Orrin]

Jerry, There Are A Couple Of Us Up Here That Woul Like That. I Have To Do Some Healing First Before I Can Get On A Bike Again, So I Would Probably Ride In The Cage.

[Freebird]

DON, THANKS FOR THE LINK. JUST GOT DONE READING IT AND I AM EXCITED. SO I HAVE SOME QUESTIONS.

 

WOULD IT BE POSSIBLE TO INSTALL A TEE AHEAD OF RICK'S PROPORTIONING VALVE TO ACTIVATE ONE OF THE CALIPERS ON THE FRONT WHEEL? I LIKE THE IDEA OF THE FOOT PEDAL OPERATING BOTH FRONT AND REAR BRAKES BUT STILL HAVE INDEPENDANT CONTROL OF FRONT BRAKE. WILL THE REAR MASTER CYLINDER HAVE SUFFICIENT VOLUME AND PRESSURE CAPACITY FOR TWO CALIPERS? WHAT DOWN SIDES MIGHT THERE BE TO THIS IDEA?

 

THE MAN WHO IS REPAIRING MY BIKE, RYAN FIELDING OWNER OF PARAGON CUSTOM CYCLES DOES THIS QUITE OFTEN WHEN HE BUILDS CUSTOM BIKES. THE FOOT MASTER CYLINDER OPERATES BOTH. MANY OF HIS CUSTOM CREATIONS HAVE NO FRONT BRAKE CONTROL.

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=13098

 

O C

 

Orrin,

You are getting way ahead of what I know about brakes. In my opinion, what you are wanting to do would require a lot more engineering than what we are doing with the rear proportioning valve. I think that getting the correct balance from front to rear would be the hardest part and would require more components.

[BOO]

Orrin,

You are getting way ahead of what I know about brakes. In my opinion, what you are wanting to do would require a lot more engineering than what we are doing with the rear proportioning valve. I think that getting the correct balance from front to rear would be the hardest part and would require more components.

 

I have been reading everything I can on the subject and there are a lot of articles on the internet about Proportioning valves. The guys who build the Hot Rod's use them a lot.

I may be missing something but it doesn't seem like a big deal to link the brakes. You must have a master cylinder with enough volume and enough reserve brake fluid to supply the cylinder. After that it's just a matter of getting the proper amount of pressure to the front and rear brakes.

It may take some experimenting to get it right but it don't look like a big engineering job to me.

Of course finding the parts might be another story but I have a Machinist for a son. Rick Butler mentioned the system he was trying to do needed a block for one line in and two lines out, they been doing that on the rear of cars and pickups for years......but I don't know if it would be a direct connection, maybe the fittings are different.

Just a dumb carpenter rambling here but I think it could be done.

Cost? I don't know but what's your life worth?

Jerry

[BOO]

Jerry, There Are A Couple Of Us Up Here That Woul Like That. I Have To Do Some Healing First Before I Can Get On A Bike Again, So I Would Probably Ride In The Cage.

 

We are about done riding down here for the season, I'm not much of a cold weather rider but if we had a nice day on the weekend I'd be willing to give it a shot.

I am planning on going to Memphis in a couple of weeks if the weather holds out. Weekend of the 27th.

Jerry

[Thom]

can a 1st gen master cylinder be made to fit it has a p valve already and enough volume . what do they say about reinventing the wheel it was done 20 years ago :rotfl: