Second gear repair '89 parts in an '84

[tvking63]

My "84 VR has the dreaded 2nd gear issue that's slowly getting worse. It's to the point that just keeping up with traffic leaving a light will cause it to jump out. It's a sidecar rig and 2nd is really handy to get the tugboat rolling.

 

I just lucked into a trans gearset out of a '89 VR. It's my understanding that it the same as the '84 except it has some updated parts including the thrust washer. I didn't get the driven middle gear and I realize they should be kept as a matched set. No forks or shift drum either.

 

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4028/4511886358_c30c1708fa_b.jpg

 

I'm debating how to proceed. Do it just put this split thrust washer on in my 84 and call it done? Do I swap in this entire gearset? If I do that do I have to swap the middle gear to keep a matched set? I'm assuming that I would have to re-shim everything them too. Doesn't the worn split washer affect middle gear backlash? If so it would seem that it's pretty forgiving.

 

Should I swap this 2nd gear wheel and 5th gear wheel onto the 84 shaft? I assume you should swap over the the 5th gear pinion too since it meshes with the 5th gear wheel, but I've changed many automotive trans gears w/o replace the mating one without issue.

 

Is undercutting the dogs necessary or is it just a bit of insurance?

 

The answers to some of these questions may become self evident when I get it apart.

 

Any other magic I need to know?

 

I know that's a lot of questions but I'm trying to gather as much input as possible before I open her up.

[dingy]

If your 84 is jumping out of gear, the teeth on the gear are damaged beyond repair.

 

You are past the thrust washer fix.

 

The entire 89 set will drop in as a direct replacement.

 

There were some updates to the gears as well as the thrust washer.

 

As we PM'ed abut you may need to re-shim the middle drive gear, may not.

 

As with any machining process there are tolerances that vary from part to part. Helical gearing is generally held very tight though.

 

Also there is a possibility of a bent shifter fork.

 

Gary

[Rocket]

 

I'm debating how to proceed. Do it just put this split thrust washer on in my 84 and call it done? Do I swap in this entire gearset? If I do that do I have to swap the middle gear to keep a matched set? I'm assuming that I would have to re-shim everything them too. Doesn't the worn split washer affect middle gear backlash? If so it would seem that it's pretty forgiving.

 

 

One thing you can do, is use the complete newer gearset, with your current middle gear assy. It is an easy swap, no re-shimming required, just compress the shaft / middle gear as doing 2nd gear, swap in your middle gear & re-assemble.

 

But I would still use new thrust washer & split locks retaining the middle gear to the shaft.

 

[Squeeze]

I think you need to open up the Motor first and see what you find in there before determine how to proceed. There a several Options with what you already have in Hand.

 

I'd definately replace the 2nd Gear Shift Fork and probably the Shift Cam too, of Course also depending on what you'll find inside your Motor.

[pegscraper]

One thing you can do, is use the complete newer gearset, with your current middle gear assy. It is an easy swap, no re-shimming required, just compress the shaft / middle gear as doing 2nd gear, swap in your middle gear & re-assemble.

 

But I would still use new thrust washer & split locks retaining the middle gear to the shaft.

 

 

 

I'd do exactly what Rocket said, to a T. Use the newer gearset for a better second gear design. The dogs are probably already back cut. Use your current middle gear assembly so you don't have to reshim and adjust anything. Use the newer hardened thrust washer and locks. Put it back together.

[tvking63]

Thanks for the input guys.

 

It's looking like swapping in the whole gearset but using the original middle gear is the most promising option.

 

Hopefully the drum and fork are OK. I guess I'll find out soon.

[tvking63]

Just removed the middle gear from the '89 shaft and the split thrust washer and the flat washer behind it are like new. The groove on the shaft looks fine as well.

 

I'm concerned about how loose the 1st gear wheel is on the shaft. I have to see if the '84 one is that loose too.

 

 

 

 

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[Venturous Randy]

Having been thru the undercutting on 83 gears and later on replacing them with an 86 gearset, I will tell you what I encountered.

 

First of all, I strongly suspect your 2nd gear fork is bent. Not a big deal and you can straighten it if you would rather not buy a new one. When you take it apart, you will see score marks on the tips of the forks on one side and in the U of the forks on the other side. You can pull the forks back in place, but you will need something to be able to verify the forks are perpendictular with the axis of the shaft. You can use the gearset itself to see how it is making contact in the slot, but that is not easy.

Before you disassemble everything, see if you can lock the nut that sticks out where the cover is, I believe it is refered to as the middle gear, so that does not turn. Then if you can put an indicator on the u-joint and rock it back and forth you can determine how much play there in in that gear. When I put mine together, I used the the 86 output gear and it was not as quiet as the 83 setup and it also leaked around the shaft seal. I ended up putting the 83 output shaft back in and it was quieter than ever before.

I now have a 2nd gen RSV gearset that I want to upgrade to and will be revisiting this again. I have also thought about just swapping the gears from one shaft to another and keeping all the shim spacing I now have.

Keep us posted.

RandyA

[pegscraper]

First gear has seemed surprisingly loose on the half dozen trannies I've looked at. I don't know why, but it seems like that's just the way it is.

 

Pst, Randy, my tranny swap is done and I love it. I'm waiting to hear how you like yours.

[jasonm.]

Randya made some good points. Shimming is required for proper BACKLASH ...measured at the U-Joint(use an OEM manual). Just a bit of play while assembling the cases can change the shim(s) you need. Which are located between the case and 3 bolts that hold the OUTPUT shaft w/u-joint. Also when you assemble the cases have HELP. The case halves need to be "squared up". A second pair of hands and tools rubber mallets and prayer is helpful. Also there is an internal shim by the BIG bearing that is critical for the middle gears to cantact in the middle of each tooth. the formula in the book can be confusing. So I used BLUE transfer die to confirm I had things proper.

[Rocket]

Randya made some good points. Shimming is required for proper BACKLASH ...measured at the U-Joint(use an OEM manual). Just a bit of play while assembling the cases can change the shim(s) you need. Which are located between the case and 3 bolts that hold the OUTPUT shaft w/u-joint. Also when you assemble the cases have HELP. The case halves need to be "squared up". A second pair of hands and tools rubber mallets and prayer is helpful. Also there is an internal shim by the BIG bearing that is critical for the middle gears to cantact in the middle of each tooth. the formula in the book can be confusing. So I used BLUE transfer die to confirm I had things proper.

 

That is why I suggested, using his current middle gear assy, so things will not need to be re-shimed. They should already be properly set, unless the pinion gear output seal & crush collar was changed & the backlash was not adjusted. But that would have showed up previously, if not done correctly.

 

[tvking63]

Cover me, I'm goin' in!

 

Got the motor out yesterday. Was a bit more involved than most because I had to remove the sidecar and one frame mount for the sidecar. Working from a wheelchair doesn't help either.

 

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/27/4562130762_062c5914df_b.jpg

 

So tonight I split the cases and popped out the gearset. I didn't snap a pic but it looked like the split washer was about to jump out of the groove in the shaft. You can see the washer is toast.

 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3619/4562130862_e69557c406_b.jpg

 

 

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4058/4562169282_553d2cb0f4_b.jpg

 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3544/4562169292_4322828c1b_b.jpg

 

 

Here's the one out of the '89 for comparison. It looks like new.

 

 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3260/4563649092_135a92fd7d_b.jpg

 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3098/4563649102_dddff64ff6_b.jpg

 

 

 

The second gear dogs have less wear than I imagined they would. But as you can see they were only engaging about a mm so it would take much.

 

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4044/4562130888_1a53e5ec49_b.jpg

 

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/100/4562130866_2f2249b963_b.jpg

 

Didn't have time to inspect the drum and forks yet. Hopefully tomorrow.

Edited April 30, 2010 by tvking63
Added '89 thrust washer pics

[Venturous Randy]

Hey Todd, great pictures. That sure brings back memories of a long time ago. I wish you lived close as I would love to drop the 2000 RSV trans I have in your case and see how everything lines up.

Keep us posted, you are doing good.

RandyA

[Yammer Dan]

Great Pics !!! Can I bring "Ugly' up next....

 

Keep us updated on this one.

[tvking63]

I wish you lived close as I would love to drop the 2000 RSV trans I have in your case and see how everything lines up.

 

RandyA

 

Are you here yet?

 

Can I bring "Ugly' up next....

 

 

I've got plenty of ugly already. It's a 25yo gold VR, I mean, come on....

 

One of the first things I noticed is that the wear on corners of the 2nd gear dogs is almost the same on the original and the new (used) gear, but the amount of engagement is way different.

 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3381/4563649082_391955aa51_b.jpg

 

On the right, the new (used) gear has at least 4x the engagement of the old one. And the camera flash makes the old one look better that it really is.

 

I also found that the groove the the drive shaft was pretty worn too. When putting a good, square thrust washer in the groove it doesn't seat nicely like it does in the replacement shaft.

 

Old shaft

 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3485/4563649104_14d7cbdc1f_b.jpg

 

Replacement shaft

 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3357/4563649112_27d12aa39c_b.jpg

 

 

The original washer behind the split washer (right) didn't look so good either, but measured the same thickness as the '89 washer.

 

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4010/4565078251_f6525103f2_b.jpg

 

The fork looked to be in good shape. Almost no wear and didn't appear to be bent.

 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3406/4565078287_b50f11ca0c_b.jpg

 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3172/4565078319_c17612f5e8_b.jpg

 

For some reason I didn't snap any pics of the drum or the pin on the fork that engages the drum.

 

Both looked fine, no visible wear when compared to the other forks.

 

In post #7 there is a video showing how loose 1st wheel is on the shaft on the '89 parts. The original was much better. Here's why. The bushing in the '89 wheel (right) is toast.

 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3095/4563649074_2d07229939_b.jpg

 

This is what I ended up doing. I used the entire '89 main shaft assembly. On the drive shaft, I used the original 1st gear wheel and middle gear assembly, on the '89 shaft.

 

Since the 1st gear wheel mating gear is machined onto the main shaft, I couldn't change it to keep a matched set. But I decided I'd rather have a good bushing in the 1st gear wheel and run the risk (I feel slight) of a bit of noise while in 1st.

 

Using the original middle gear and shims seems to have worked out fine. The backlash is right where is was before.

 

This is the original gearset, shifted into second gear. The arrow points to the dog just barely engaging the 2nd gear wheel. Notice the gap between the gears.

 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3213/4565145391_6676b4740c_b.jpg

 

Here is the '89 gearset in 2nd gear. The gears are so close that you can't ever see the dogs.

 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3340/4565078267_41b363106f_b.jpg

 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3432/4565078281_2890a5706b_b.jpg

 

The cases are back together but need to assemble all the other pieces to be ready to put back in the frame.

 

Should be out riding in about an hour......

Edited April 30, 2010 by tvking63
punctuation

[friesman]

thanks for giving us the birds eye view on everything!! thanks for the pics and your time for doing this for the rest of us.

 

Brian

[Yammer Dan]

Good Luck. Hope it runs like a New 1st Gen!!

[pegscraper]

I'd appreciate it if folks would take it easy on pictures like this. This is ridiculous. Not everyone has a high speed connection. I sat here for five minutes and gave up. Instead of using a third party picture host, load pictures onto the board so they show up as thumbnails and can be opened individually. Thanks.

[tvking63]

While I appreciate your dilemma pegscraper, I really don't need yet another place on the web to park my images. I'd rather keep my content in an organized, cohesive manner.

 

You could try using the "Show Printable Version" option, by clicking on the "Thread Tools" button at the top of the thread which turns all the images in that thread into clickable links.

 

Or in the left hand column, click on "User CP", then under "Settings and Options" click "Edit Options", drill down to "Thread Display Options" and uncheck "Show Images" then "Save" at the bottom of the page, which will turn the images in all threads to clickable links. While you're there you might want to uncheck "Show Avatars" and "Show Signatures" too.

 

Ok, on to other things.

 

I found these 2 pins in the oil pump pick-up screen while cleaning things up.

 

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4026/4571565963_c478414aa9.jpg

 

They look like pins from a roller bearing or possibly the pins on the end of the shift drum. Other than the 2nd gear issue, it ran fine with odd noises......come to think of it, sometimes on a hot start it make a ka-chunk noise that I assumed was a starter clutch issue. Could it be from the starter roller clutch?

 

It seems odd that they are the same diameter (.155') but different lengths (.535 and .658'')

 

Edit: I see in the parts fiche, that on the shift drum there is one pin longer than the other 5. I'm assuming that's what these are. All my pins are there. It does look like the engine has been open before so it's possible the the pins or drum has been replaced. Is the pins coming out an issue?

Edited May 2, 2010 by tvking63

[Squeeze]

These Pins look like thay came out of the Shifter Rachet Mechanism.

[talonsx2]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4028/4511886358_c30c1708fa_b.jpg

 

I need some help, in the picture above the assembaly on the left hand side from the top you have the bearing and then a gear, (On mine these two things slip right off of my shaft but the next (gear/Pinion?, the gear with the slide for the shift fork) does not come right off? Is it supposed too? Thanks in advance

 

Michael

[tvking63]

The piece the shift fork goes into (4th gear wheel) should slide off. The gear under that is held on with a snap ring.

[tvking63]

It was all back together several weeks ago but been busy and the weather has been crap so I didn't get a chance to ride it much until recently.

 

Wow, I didn't realize how much I missed second gear. Getting that tugboat under way, especially with the sidecar, is much easier.

 

I can't hear any noise from my mismatched 1st gear set either. I spent a ton of time getting the exhaust sealed up, especially the slip fittings on the rear cylinders. What a pain. I do have a little coolant leak from one of the rubber cylinder plugs but otherwise all is well.

 

Then my Pingel electric shifter went belly-up so I'm dead in the water again......