Squidley Posted October 31, 2013 #51 Posted October 31, 2013 Hi guys so let me if this is right if I understand all this. When by bike is really hot( stop and go at the US Canada border) any attempt therafter to start the bike until it has cooled down has cause this crazy monkey with a hammer in the engine. I"ve read that this could possibly be caused by a damaged starter clutch engagement mechanism (loose bolts(3) or cracked housing). As the noise only happens when the starter seems to have a hard time to turn over and hesitates as if the voltage were insufficient you might be suggesting that the problem probably resides in a bad starter design and all I might have to do is replace with a 4 brush starter or solder an extra ground lead inside my 2 brush starter and all might be okay:fingers-crossed-emo From what your posting it sounds like your starter clutch is going....
Flyinfool Posted October 31, 2013 #52 Posted October 31, 2013 I think you have 2 separate issues. The monkey inside with a hammer is due to a failing starter clutch. This will require repair. The slow cranking when hot is due to issues with the starter circuit and motor. There are many things to help this. New 4ga cables. AGM Battery. Ground mod as described in this thread. 4 brush starter.
yamihami Posted November 1, 2013 #53 Posted November 1, 2013 Thanks guys, I love this place we build such a bank of knowledge, now I know what I'll be doing this winter when the missus is not keeping my feet warm.
icebrrg3rd Posted November 1, 2013 #54 Posted November 1, 2013 I did the starter grounds, new cable, new battery, but what really did it was the 4 brush starter. Would just replacing the starter and none of those things have worked instead? Maybe, but my bike is 3 decades old, so the more "new" stuff in it the better. I'd upgrade the wiring and battery, but skip the starter ground mod and just get the 4-brush starter instead. As for that monkey, better slip him some bananas to keep him quiet. Get that starter situation fixed ASAP or you'll definitely be handing cash over for a new starter clutch. Dano had a great starter clutch mod (on my list) if you're looking to replace it down the line. -Andrew
Flyinfool Posted November 1, 2013 #55 Posted November 1, 2013 On my '88 I did the AGM battery and the ground mod on my 2 brush starter. I will do the wire upgrade the next time I am in there that deep. Should my starter motor ever die it will be replaced with a 4 brush. But all of my slow cranking when hot issues are gone for now. Now IF we can just talk one of those that said they would make up cables to follow thru...... I'm just to lazy to make up my own cables right now.......
Lassesand Posted January 19, 2014 #56 Posted January 19, 2014 Hello! Interesting to read about the starter grounding problem! I had much starting motor trouble with my -81 Yamaha TR1. (XV1000, XV960 etc are similar) First problem was a soldering on the plus cable terminal on the inside of the starter motor that had cracked. After that I used a multimeter and did find that on the brush holder that is riveted to the plate had so much oxide underneath that it caused bad starting. Also noted the problem with the earth trough the plate and the tabs. I have the same problem with hot starting on my golden XVZ12 from -84 so it's nice now to be able to fix this issue on all my bikes including my VF1000F (Honda)!
dingy Posted January 19, 2014 Author #57 Posted January 19, 2014 Hello! Interesting to read about the starter grounding problem! I had much starting motor trouble with my -81 Yamaha TR1. (XV1000, XV960 etc are similar) First problem was a soldering on the plus cable terminal on the inside of the starter motor that had cracked. After that I used a multimeter and did find that on the brush holder that is riveted to the plate had so much oxide underneath that it caused bad starting. Also noted the problem with the earth trough the plate and the tabs. I have the same problem with hot starting on my golden XVZ12 from -84 so it's nice now to be able to fix this issue on all my bikes including my VF1000F (Honda)! Starter is probably main issue, 2nd is good battery and then heavier cables. I have 4 gauge cable sets for sale now. Not sure how long I will have these. Lot of work to get them made up. Also all connections have to be clean. One other weak point would be a solenoid that is going bad. High resistance contacts in solenoid would cause cranking issues. http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=83883 Gary
jasonm. Posted January 25, 2014 #58 Posted January 25, 2014 starting upgrades. Some are easier and simpler tan others. You decide 1) solder all ends @ starter and battery leads 2) add ground wire inside starter 3) upgrade wires as listed on previous post 4) 4 brush starter
Vonwolf Posted February 26, 2015 #59 Posted February 26, 2015 I'm haveing a hard time finding a 4 brush starter, all the ones I find on Ebay for VMax from what I can find are 2 brush starters. I looked in the Yamaha parts book and all VMaxes before 2009 are 2 brush starters, the book also shows the second gens as having a 2 brush starter. Am I getting bad information, the VMax starter I bought turned out to be a 2 brush unit when I called to check, I ordered a starter off a 2009 XVZ1300 but when I looked it up in the book it says it is only a 2 brush starter? I'm really haveing a hard time with this, can anyone point me in the right direction, is that 2009 starter really a 4 brush unit, or can anyone show a link to the starter I need? Thanks
dingy Posted February 26, 2015 Author #60 Posted February 26, 2015 All RSV's had factory 4 brush starters. Visually, a 2 brush starter has 4 countersunk screws around the mid line, 4 brush starters do not. Look at the P/N on the brushes in the parts fiche, I believe there is a difference between 2 & 4 brush. Lower starter in picture is a 4 brush, no armature in it, or long screws. Upper starter is 2 brush. Gary
Peder_y2k Posted February 27, 2015 #61 Posted February 27, 2015 I simply re-bent the grounding tabs and the hot start issue went away. Pete, in Tacoma WA USA
Vonwolf Posted February 27, 2015 #62 Posted February 27, 2015 All RSV's had factory 4 brush starters. Visually, a 2 brush starter has 4 countersunk screws around the mid line, 4 brush starters do not. Look at the P/N on the brushes in the parts fiche, I believe there is a difference between 2 & 4 brush. Lower starter in picture is a 4 brush, no armature in it, or long screws. Upper starter is 2 brush. Gary So if I buy the starter off the 2009 Royal Star Venture It will have 4 brushes, the picture looks just like the starter on the bottom, except it has the long bolts holding it together. The VMax starter looked like that too only in black but when I called the guy said it had 2 brushed; is he wrong? I canceled the order, but they already sent it (in a matter of 5 minutes) but I'm thinking I'll check it out before I send it back, I might get lucky
Neil86 Posted February 28, 2015 #63 Posted February 28, 2015 The starter changed from 2 brush to 4 brush with the 1991 Venture. The VMax switched to 4 brush in 1993. All RSV are 4 brush. If you look on the parts fiches they show Brush 1 & 2 for the older 2 brush units and a Brush Set for the 4 brush units.
Vonwolf Posted March 1, 2015 #64 Posted March 1, 2015 The starter changed from 2 brush to 4 brush with the 1991 Venture. The VMax switched to 4 brush in 1993. All RSV are 4 brush. If you look on the parts fiches they show Brush 1 & 2 for the older 2 brush units and a Brush Set for the 4 brush units. This is good to know, the parts books had me chasing my tail all night. If you look at them nothing had 4 brush starters till the VMax in 2009, but then I all the posts of everyone buying a RSV starter and they're happily installing them in their 1st gen's with no complaints, how the 2 brush starters have the screw in the center of the casing, the 4 brush had no screw so I buy a new starter for a VMax having no screws identifying it as a 4 brush and the vendor tells me it only has 2 brushes, the confusion sets in? So now here I sit, waiting for my starter to see if it's good or bad and watching all the known 4 brush units sitting on eBay, but I can't order them so I guess you could say I'm a bit on edge
Neil86 Posted March 1, 2015 #65 Posted March 1, 2015 (edited) Well I'm talking OEM staters here. The aftermarket starters could be different. The reason the RSV starters have been recommended for a few years is they are 4 brush, and seem to hold up very well. They were available for a reasonable $ used too. The diagrams in the parts books are not definitive, you have to look at the part listings. (Brushes vs Brush Set). Edited March 1, 2015 by Neil86
Vonwolf Posted March 3, 2015 #66 Posted March 3, 2015 More Great News I just got the VMax starter that the Vendor swore was only a 2 Brush Starter. Before I was going to even think about returning it I had to check it, low and behold it has 4 Brushes! Not returning this Baby and with the starter button mystery solved I could have it back together by the end of today. Except that I did a while I down there and disassembled the whole cooling system, a very good idea as it was a mess down there. So I'm still playing the waiting game for parts, but I'm much happier. Thanks again for all the help!
Venturous Randy Posted March 4, 2015 #67 Posted March 4, 2015 More Great News I just got the VMax starter that the Vendor swore was only a 2 Brush Starter. Before I was going to even think about returning it I had to check it, low and behold it has 4 Brushes! Good. Now, maybe I will be able to sleep tonight. Randy
Geobob Posted July 24, 2015 #68 Posted July 24, 2015 This is too good of a thread to let die. So some how I missed this thread and took some ones advice and just cleaned out my starter last year when I had it out. Well that did little good. While this issue of hard starting when hot has been a bit of a pain, the bike has always started when hot so long as I have not let the fan draw the battery down while idling in stop and go traffic. That taught me to turn up the idle a few hundred rpms. I was worried about over heating and did not look at the volt meter. So after 74K trouble free miles I pulled the starter today and made the mod. I don't understand why the 4 brush model would be that much more difficult since it appeared that from where the pictures showed the wire attachments, that 12 gauge wire had to run over the top of the brushes. Correct me if I am wrong about where the wire ends up running in there but it is not a simple attachment and then close the case up. I got it closed up and everything moves freely but I have my suspicions as where that wire is smashed into. What ever the case is, we will find out how well it works tomorrow. I was thinking of running a ground wire from the bolt through case to the grounding strap on the motor. That seems simple enough. I guess if I had read completely throught this thread before attempting the repair, I would have gone and found a 4 brush starter that was reported to work fine even with out the added grounding. My biggest concern about this whole job is getting the thermostat housing/cover to seat back down without messing up the o ring. I had a leak there last year and went through a lot to get it solved. When I took it off the o ring was damages but it was not leaking. I have what might be the old o ring or an other from some other application. I hope it goes back together. I remember that a too large of o ring and you wont get the thermostat cover down. I had some coolant leaks also that I dealt with by tightening clamps. I hope all that cooling system parts go back on with out leaking. If this works I will say it will be worth it since I have been putting up with this hard starting for probably 20 years now. Could this bike be getting better with age. I will say that changing the speakers did not help any. I guess it needs and amp. But I still remember the original speaker to be very loud and clear. Maybey my hearing was just better back then,
Geobob Posted August 10, 2015 #69 Posted August 10, 2015 So I have completed the grounding upgrade and the problem may actually be worse. The bike finnal would not start once it got hot. Maybe the wire came loose. I think at this point it is time to just buy the four brush starter
Vonwolf Posted August 10, 2015 #70 Posted August 10, 2015 So I have completed the grounding upgrade and the problem may actually be worse. The bike finnal would not start once it got hot. Maybe the wire came loose. I think at this point it is time to just buy the four brush starter I don't mean to sound like a 4 Brush Started cheerleader, but it changed my bike from a useless 800-pound iron garden gnome to a bike that starts everytime hot or cold. I gave up on my bike in 2010 because it would barely turn the motor over when cold, I was amazed it started at all it cranked so slow, but when hot, I had one chance to start if it didn't, well that was it ride over, The bike was useless to me so it sat until I came back here and read about the 4 brush starter upgrade, now it spins the motor like the spark plugs are out, hot or cold it's a different bike. Well, I guess I am a cheerleader as it was the only reason my bike didn't get buried in my back yard next to my XS750.
Geobob Posted August 10, 2015 #71 Posted August 10, 2015 Well I guess that answers the question as to whether on not I should dig back into it. I told myself I would not do that unless I was changing the starter but then I started thinking maybe I would. But now, no way. I am not pulling that thing unless it is to replace it. Thanks for the input. What did you replace it with. There is a number of them on Ebay but they all looked like new replacement motors. Did you find a used one or a new replacement for Ricks electronics.
Geobob Posted August 10, 2015 #72 Posted August 10, 2015 Funny thing is, I was just making up a set of motorcycle jumper cables in the garage because of this problem. I bump started it on Friday in the middle of a ride where I had my wife's daughter on the back and my wife on her bike. Talk about messing up a nice ride. It bump started very easily but I spent the rest of the day worried about it starting. I was also kicking myself for not having jumper cables on the bike. But then maybe they would not have helped.
Vonwolf Posted August 11, 2015 #73 Posted August 11, 2015 I bought a new starter for a VMax I did a whole lot of research on it and asked dozens of question trying to make up my mind, there a more than a few posts on this thread from me about what was the right one to get. Parts books will drive you nuts with false information on the subject, even the vendor I bought my starter from thought it was a 2 brush starter. I was waffling back and forth on what was right when it's really very simple, most VMax and all 2nd generation Venture starters are 4 Brush units. It turned out the one I ordered was a 4 brush unit in spite of what the seller believed, basically if it doesn't have the 4 screws in the center of the case like the first gen's have then it's a 4 brush unit.
Flyinfool Posted August 11, 2015 #74 Posted August 11, 2015 While a 4 brush starter is the best solution, The ground mod that this thread is about is a definite improvement for those that may not have the cash for a 4 brush starter and is a great way to improve what you already have. I have the ground mod on my bike and see no real need for a 4 brush at this time.
Geobob Posted August 11, 2015 #75 Posted August 11, 2015 http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-Starter-VMAX-1200-V-Max-1FK-81800-10-00-Yamaha-/291109473030?hash=item43c77a0b06&vxp=mtr. This was a link to a starter motor for a vmax. It is a new aftermarket part for something like $89. Has anyone tried these new aftermarket products. I know yamaha probably did not make the original so I can't see anything wrong with an aftermarket. I just wonder if anyone has looked inside one and found less than 4 brushes.
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